Letters: Consider voting against Prop. 8

Let equality stand for all Californians. The last letter I wrote to the editor was just over 13 years ago.

[Ross]

Proposition 8 is illegal

It is far too infrequently noted that our Founders specifically intended that the rights of individuals were determined by reference to a Constitution, rather than ever be the subject to the whims of a popular vote. They established a procedure to amend the Constitution when required, and deliberately set a high bar, well above a majority vote, for such a change. Prop. 8 violates all of this.

In fact, the problem of an unpopular individual or minority being persecuted by a majority was well-understood to the Founders, who remembered precisely this kind of populist disapproval and persecution in England. They called it the “tyranny of the majority�.

What Proposition 8 does is illegal. If passed, it cannot stand because it violates the US Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, as well as the intent of the original Founders, and furthermore violates California's Constitution. A vote for Prop. 8 is a vote against the Constitutional form of government and the rule of law.

If passed, it will cost the state of California a small fortune to defend, at a time when there are far more important priorities than excluding rights from people. It will inevitably wind up in the US Supreme Court where, all indications are, it will lose, especially because the precedent has already been established as a matter of law that the right of same sex couples to marry exists.

Aside from this, do Californians really want to set a precedent that the rights of people should be subject to popular vote? What is next? Voting that Chinese people can't hold driver's licenses due to a common stereotype? Deciding that Californians of Mexican descent must wear a state-issued “star� to prove they are citizens?

This is not a road that we should even start to go down.

Please do the right thing and vote No on 8. Both fairness and a respect for our system of law demands it.

-- Ross Archer

[Hunter Swift]

Please VOTE YES on PROP 8 This is not about Homosexuals and their rights (since this will not affect any of the their rights or priviledges they already receive under the Domestic Parternship Laws. This is about our children! If you don't vote Yes on Prop 8, our kids will be required to learn that same sex marriage is the same as regular marriage in schools. They will have to be taught in sexual education both hetrosexual and homsexual practices, otherwise the schools will be discrimatory for not treating them equally. It also affects our freedom of religion. If the church I belong to doesnt believe in same sex marriage, and denies a gay couple to marry they can sue the church for being discriminating, and even be accused of "Hate Speeches" if they speak against same sex marriage. We let homosexuals do what they want with their feelings, their lifestyle, their love, and in the confines of their home. Don't force us to treat same sex marriage as equal and force it to our kids. Please Please Vote Yes on Prop 8.

[Voter]

Hunter, you are overreacting. Churches already marry who they choose, and this law will not change that. Sex is sex, whether it is between two of the same sex or two of the opposite sex, besides, they aren't teaching HOW to have sex in school, they are teaching how not to get pregnant or catch a disease. What children will learn at school is that two people who love each other can marry. Your overreactions are likely to cause your children to believe that same sex marriage is okay. Children have a marvelous capacity to see hateful discrimination for what it is.

[I approve this comment]

Please vote NO ON 8. This is once again about supporting everyone, not just some. NO child has ever been made gay by allowing people of the same gender to marry. Prop 8 is a means for haters to spread their hate.It is a means for MISinformed people to share their MISinformation. Prop 8 is all about INequality. Stop teaching your children that some people are different and should therefore not be allowed the same rights as everyone else. Trying uniting people instead of tearing them and their communities apart.

The world did not end when Mass. allowed EQUALITY in marriage. It didn't end when CA allowed EQUALITY several months ago. And now Conn. is also allowing EQUALITY to prevail, and N.J. is expected to follow soon.

Let's worry about the REAL problems facing us - poor fiscal responsibility by our gov't., wars with no end, world hunger. Prop 8 does nothing to help any of these problems. It simply makes for INequality amongst our fellow citizens. It is time to get over this non-problem, this non-issue, and put our energies into going forward, not backwards.

Prop 8 is a step backwards. Say NO ON 8, please. Thank you.

[lissintomi]

NO on 8....Dump Farr...

[JoeyRamone63]

Hunter Swift wrote:

Please VOTE YES on PROP 8 This is not about Homosexuals and their rights (since this will not affect any of the their rights or priviledges they already receive under the Domestic Parternship Laws. This is about our children! If you don't vote Yes on Prop 8, our kids will be required to learn that same sex marriage is the same as regular marriage in schools. They will have to be taught in sexual education both hetrosexual and homsexual practices, otherwise the schools will be discrimatory for not treating them equally. It also affects our freedom of religion. If the church I belong to doesnt believe in same sex marriage, and denies a gay couple to marry they can sue the church for being discriminating, and even be accused of "Hate Speeches" if they speak against same sex marriage. We let homosexuals do what they want with their feelings, their lifestyle, their love, and in the confines of their home. Don't force us to treat same sex marriage as equal and force it to our kids. Please Please Vote Yes on Prop 8.

Hunter,

You have, unfortunately, bought into the scare tactics used by the Knights of Columbus (KOC)in their advertising. Nothing will be forced on kids and churches will suffer no adverse effects from this. KOC is the same radical right-wing organization that wanted interracial marriage outlawed in the 70's; they are nothing but bigoted fanatics.

Vote NO on 8 and protect the Constitution.

[Monica K]

It is not an issue of equality it is about protecting the family unit. Two people of the same sex can not create a family, children should have the opportunity to have a mother and a father.

[moonstone]

If proposition 8 does not pass, California society will undergo a profound change in its basic understanding of marriage and family life. This could affect everyone in numerous ways. Over time, greater acceptance of nontraditional marriage will be demanded of all people. This could impact the ability of any religion to teach and practice its beliefs.
Proposition 8 will not hurt gays and lesbians. In California, the law provides for marriage-related benefits to be given to civil unions and domestic partnerships. Proposition 8 does not diminish these benefits.
Failure to pass Proposition 8 will hurt children. If same-sex marriage remains legal, public schools will put it on equal footing with traditional marriage. Children will likely receive “age appropriate” information about sexual relations within heterosexual and homosexual marriages.
Failure to pass Proposition 8 will hurt churches. The court’s decision will inevitably lead to conflicts with religious liberty and free speech rights. Society will become more and more hostile to traditional beliefs about marriage and family.
Vote yes on proposition 8.

[mike]

Yes I will vote yes on 8 thank you for the help

[JoeyRamone63]

Monica K wrote:

It is not an issue of equality it is about protecting the family unit. Two people of the same sex can not create a family, children should have the opportunity to have a mother and a father.

They can adopt and have a very functional family. A mother and a father are not necessary in order to provide a stable family unit; just look at all the single parent households that succeed just fine. A loving family is what kids need, but that doesn't mean it has to be restricted to a mother and father.

[JoeyRamone63]

moonstone wrote:

If proposition 8 does not pass, California society will undergo a profound change in its basic understanding of marriage and family life. This could affect everyone in numerous ways. Over time, greater acceptance of nontraditional marriage will be demanded of all people. This could impact the ability of any religion to teach and practice its beliefs.
Proposition 8 will not hurt gays and lesbians. In California, the law provides for marriage-related benefits to be given to civil unions and domestic partnerships. Proposition 8 does not diminish these benefits.
Failure to pass Proposition 8 will hurt children. If same-sex marriage remains legal, public schools will put it on equal footing with traditional marriage. Children will likely receive “age appropriate” information about sexual relations within heterosexual and homosexual marriages.
Failure to pass Proposition 8 will hurt churches. The court’s decision will inevitably lead to conflicts with religious liberty and free speech rights. Society will become more and more hostile to traditional beliefs about marriage and family.
Vote yes on proposition 8.

This stated set of beliefs about the 'dangers' of same-sex marriage is based only on irrational fears, not facts or evidence. Churches will have the legal right to decide for themselves whether or not to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies. There is no legal impact and no way a church could lose its tax exemption. These are just fear-based tactics used by the Knights of Columbus in order to sway your vote. Same-sex marriage harms nobody.

[brer rabbit]

YES ON 8! sent out my ballot today. THANK YOU!!!

[moonstone]

As voters, each of us is trying to use our own “crystal ball” to see where this will lead. There will be many, perhaps unintended, consequences if proposition 8 does not pass. For instance, in Massachusetts where gay marriage is legal, Catholic Charities recently closed its adoption program because the state mandated that every adoption agency must allow same-sex couples to adopt. This is a clear demonstration of impact on religious freedoms. In Albuquerque, a wedding photographer was ordered by the state's Human Rights Commission to pay a large fine (thousands of dollars) because she declined to photograph a gay couple's commitment ceremony. She declined because of her religious beliefs -- another demonstration of freedom of religion being adversely impacted. There is the very real possibility that churches could lose their tax-exempt status for refusal to perform gay marriages because of religious beliefs.

You can argue whether these consequences are intended or unintended, but it is difficult to believe that someone could believe that they are not “real.”

JoeyRamone63 asks for facts and evidence. This is an easy way out, having to avoid any deep thinking. There are no facts or evidence. Marriage has never been redefined before. It is likely that it will be at least a couple of generations before the true impact can be assessed.

For example, if you had asked people 100 years ago whether smoking was harmful, I am sure they would have said "no, and certainly my smoking could not possibly hurt you (a non-smoker)." Today, with the benefit of hindsight, the dangers of smoking are clear -- to me in particular and to society in general. 

Opponents of 8 often state that same sex marriages will have no impact on my marriage in particular nor on society in general. What proof do they offer? None. Can I predict what impact it will have? No. Not me either. Am I willing to risk the possible (and in my opinion likely) negative impacts that might occur from redefining marriage? No. I am very uncomfortable with having my children and grandchildren being used as guinea pigs in such a novel experiment. We have no idea where this will lead. It will likely be a generation or more before all the consequences are known -- just like with second hand smoke.

This is one of the reasons that I will be voting yes on proposition 8.

[JoeyRamone63]

moonstone wrote:

As voters, each of us is trying to use our own “crystal ball” to see where this will lead. There will be many, perhaps unintended, consequences if proposition 8 does not pass. For instance, in Massachusetts where gay marriage is legal, Catholic Charities recently closed its adoption program because the state mandated that every adoption agency must allow same-sex couples to adopt. This is a clear demonstration of impact on religious freedoms. In Albuquerque, a wedding photographer was ordered by the state's Human Rights Commission to pay a large fine (thousands of dollars) because she declined to photograph a gay couple's commitment ceremony. She declined because of her religious beliefs -- another demonstration of freedom of religion being adversely impacted. There is the very real possibility that churches could lose their tax-exempt status for refusal to perform gay marriages because of religious beliefs.
You can argue whether these consequences are intended or unintended, but it is difficult to believe that someone could believe that they are not “real.”
JoeyRamone63 asks for facts and evidence. This is an easy way out, having to avoid any deep thinking. There are no facts or evidence. Marriage has never been redefined before. It is likely that it will be at least a couple of generations before the true impact can be assessed.
For example, if you had asked people 100 years ago whether smoking was harmful, I am sure they would have said "no, and certainly my smoking could not possibly hurt you (a non-smoker)." Today, with the benefit of hindsight, the dangers of smoking are clear -- to me in particular and to society in general. 
Opponents of 8 often state that same sex marriages will have no impact on my marriage in particular nor on society in general. What proof do they offer? None. Can I predict what impact it will have? No. Not me either. Am I willing to risk the possible (and in my opinion likely) negative impacts that might occur from redefining marriage? No. I am very uncomfortable with having my children and grandchildren being used as guinea pigs in such a novel experiment. We have no idea where this will lead. It will likely be a generation or more before all the consequences are known -- just like with second hand smoke.
This is one of the reasons that I will be voting yes on proposition 8.

The fact is that opponents of sames-sex marriage have no rational reason to oppose it. "Religious freedom" is a red herring and a weak excuse to discriminate against people. Prop. 8 is discriminatory and violates the Constitution. Everyone deserves to be treated equally under the law. Vote NO on 8 if you truly support equal rights for everybody.

[moonstone]

JoeyRamone63 wrote:

<quoted text>
The fact is that opponents of sames-sex marriage have no rational reason to oppose it. "Religious freedom" is a red herring and a weak excuse to discriminate against people. Prop. 8 is discriminatory and violates the Constitution. Everyone deserves to be treated equally under the law. Vote NO on 8 if you truly support equal rights for everybody.

There are plenty of reasons to oppose gay marriage. I have only named a few. If all you can do is label them "irrational" then we will have to agree to disagree and let the voting decide...

[JoeyRamone63]

moonstone wrote:

<quoted text>
There are plenty of reasons to oppose gay marriage. I have only named a few. If all you can do is label them "irrational" then we will have to agree to disagree and let the voting decide...

You haven't named any reason that is justifiable. If you can concisely explain how it is justifiable to discriminate against a segment of society (some of whom might actually be your own friends and relatives) based solely on their sexual orientation, please feel free to do so.

[moonstone]

JoeyRamone63 wrote:

<quoted text>
You haven't named any reason that is justifiable. If you can concisely explain how it is justifiable to discriminate against a segment of society (some of whom might actually be your own friends and relatives) based solely on their sexual orientation, please feel free to do so.

I already did justify my reason for supporting proposition 8. I can see why you would want to simply claim "discrimination" and take the quick way out (my comment of no deep thinking). Go ahead. It makes your job easier, but it does not make your position correct.

[JoeyRamone63]

moonstone wrote:

<quoted text>
I already did justify my reason for supporting proposition 8. I can see why you would want to simply claim "discrimination" and take the quick way out (my comment of no deep thinking). Go ahead. It makes your job easier, but it does not make your position correct.

Your "reasoning" and "deep thought" have produced only superficial, unsubstantiated, fear-based rhetoric. "Religious freedom" is just a smoke screen to allow churches to discriminate; case in point is your example of a Catholic adoption agency refusing to allow a same-sex couple to adopt. Would you feel the same way if that adoption agency also refused to allow Jewish, Muslim, or interracial couples to adopt?

There is absolutely no legal grounds for a church to be fearful of being sued for refusing to conduct a same-sex marriage ceremony. Church weddings are merely ceremonial; they are not legal without a state-issued marriage license.

Bottom line: two consenting adults should be able to love who they want and how they want. Forcing them to be treated differently under the law, based only on their sexual orientation, is discriminatory and should not be legal.

[erik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

gays already have all the same rights and protection in a domestic partnership. no need to force churches to marry members of the same sex. Something that goes against their religious beliefs.

It's sad, but in the name of being politically correct you are discriminating against anyone who has faith in the Holly Bible.

[I approve this comment]

erik wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =vI-GjWY-WlA
gays already have all the same rights and protection in a domestic partnership. no need to force churches to marry members of the same sex. Something that goes against their religious beliefs.
It's sad, but in the name of being politically correct you are discriminating against anyone who has faith in the Holly Bible.

Uh, it is the Holy Bible - but not everyone blindly swallows everything in it.

btw -STOP THE HATE, Vote NO on 8. Or keep doing what someone else tells you to and avoid thinking for yourself.