Disability allegations against National Park Service Visitor Ce...

Marilynn Phillips says she is "cautiously optimistic" about the response of the National Park Service to her concerns about the accessibility of the new Gettysburg National Military Park Museum and Visitor ...

[Gallaudet grad]

"...absence... of audiotapes for the hearing disabled." Why would I, as a deaf person, need an audiotape?

[Jeff Spangler]

If a facility is in compliance with the letter of the law and regulations, it is an abuse of the legal process to file complaints alleging otherwise, as she appears to recognize. Attempts to impose alternative designs of buildings by activism and constructive advocacy are proper but lose credibility if they are not tempered by the rule of reason.

[Marilynn Phillips]

Gallaudet grad wrote:

"...absence... of audiotapes for the hearing disabled." Why would I, as a deaf person, need an audiotape?

Dear Gallaudet grad:

If, in my email to Ms. James, I failed to catch that error, I apologize to the Sun and its readers.

During my visit, I noted the absence of Braile signage and "tour" audiotapes for blind persons, and (confirmed by personnel at the Center)the absence of ASL interpreters for deaf persons.

Apparently, NPS "used to have" an ASL interpreter, but no longer.

Marilynn J. Phillips, Ph.D.
Hampstead, MD

[Gallaudet grad]

I call ahead, they arrange for an interpreter. It's no hassle at all. If you're not deaf, please don't try to represent us.

[Marilynn Phillips]

Jeff Spangler wrote:

If a facility is in compliance with the letter of the law and regulations, it is an abuse of the legal process to file complaints alleging otherwise, as she appears to recognize. Attempts to impose alternative designs of buildings by activism and constructive advocacy are proper but lose credibility if they are not tempered by the rule of reason.

Dear Mr. Spangler,

The "letter of the law" issues have to do with the lack of specific technical specifications for the distance from accessible parking to the main entrance.

In a setting which has space contraints, it may be impossible to locate accessible parking within a specific "universal" distance.

ADAAG and ABAAG state that accessible parking be located on the "shortest possible route" to the main entrance.

Since neither specify, for example, 20 feet or 50 feet -- an impossibility for a "universal" guide given the literally millions of applications -- the phrasing "shortest distance possible" is the "measurement" to be used by architects and planners who are expected to "honor" the "intent of the guidelines," a major component of their professional training in "universal design."

The "intent of the law" is covered in ADA under the regulation requiring "reasonable accommodation." The Department of Justice and state civil rights commissions are the appropriate agencies where one can file a complaint for "reasonable accommodation."

The guidelines also require that architects "minimize travel distances" for elderly and mobility disabled. Again, no specific distance is given, but the "intent" is clear.

Another factor: There were no space constraints precluding locating parking facilities (for everyone) in proximity to the Visitor Center.

So, on several counts, including "shortest route possible" and "minimizing travel distances," a formal complaint is reasonable.

The matter of "back burner" refers to "timing." Rather than file a complaint within a week of my visit, I am hoping that NPS and The Gettysburg Foundation can provide a remedy that is "reasonable accommodation."

Imagine an architect's "credibility" were s/he to locate the closest parking facility (not just accessible parking)500 or more feet from the main entrance to a shopping mall.

Marilynn J. Phillips, Ph.D.
Hampstead, MD

[Marilynn Phillips]

Gallaudet grad wrote:

I call ahead, they arrange for an interpreter. It's no hassle at all. If you're not deaf, please don't try to represent us.

Dear Gallaudet grad,

I assure you I am not trying to "represent" you or other deaf persons. I was asked by a reporter what I noted to be deficiencies related to ADA.

I was told by an NPS representative there that they "no longer" had ASL interpreters "available."

I simply reported that, as I reported other ADA deficiencies which I noted during my visit.

I have found NPS to be pro-active with regard to ADA compliance and "reasonable accommodation."

Thank you for letting me know that NPS has responded appropriately to your requests for interpreters. I hope that will continue to be the case.

When and if I file my complaint, it will be on "mobility" issues. Since I am not deaf, I would have no standing to file an "official" complaint on behalf of deaf persons or blind persons, etc.

However, when I have noticed issues related to several disability issues, I provide a separate letter if the agency wishes to pursue that issue at the same time.

For example, when filing a complaint about curb ramps, I may note that I also did not observe "detectable warnings" (for blind persons). In other words, when the new curb ramp is installed, the "warnings" must be installed, and that is simply a notation for the investigator. It simply saves time and money for everyone, including taxpayers.

Marilynn J. Phillips, Ph.D.
[e-mail]

[Gene Golden]

I was once told by an ADA consultant, "Blind people don't touch signs, sign-makers do."

Can you imagine walking into that building and trying to find the wall that may just happen to have the Braille Restroom sign?
A blind person without a guide with him, would be totally lost in there. I'm sighted, and I couldn't tell you where the toilets are.
Wouldn't it be a lot easier for him to ask for an escort, or is that not dignified? Sighted persons do it all the time!
I think that a blind person wandering the building, in search of anything, would be so much less dignified.
And I didn't see many displays that were even slightly oriented toward the visually impaired. When are they coming? I see another PHRC complaint!

MJP-"If, in my email to Ms. James, I failed to catch that error, I apologize to the Sun and its readers. "
"IF"... "IF"? I think Ms P misses a lot of errors, but I guess there is a slight possibility that Erin James misquoted the email. I certainly hope not. I believe Ms P should apologize to the Sun and its readers for MUCH MORE than a poorly thought out email.

Gallaudet grad,
Do you feel it is necessary to hire a person to provide ASL services? Should they be on-staff at all times? Should they be interpreting the Battle Movie at every showing, or should they have just incorporated ASL into the corner of the movie, or maybe it should have captions at the bottom?
In that huge building, if you need to find out information, would you rather wait for an interpretor, or just write notes back and forth with a hearing individual? Is it worth it for this Visitor Center to employ an interpretor at an additional, what $35,000 a year, just to be on standby on the slight chance that you may need his services?

MJP-"Apparently, NPS "used to have" an ASL interpreter, but no longer." Did they have an interpretor HIRED for that job, or was an employee just fortunate enough to know ASL? Which dialect of ASL?

[Gene Golden]

MJP-"Imagine an architect's "credibility" were s/he to locate the closest parking facility (not just accessible parking)500 or more feet from the main entrance to a shopping mall."
Does it really matter how close that parking space is to the shopping mall? Consider the distance you will be traveling once inside the Mall anyway. Granted, you may not get as wet if it's raining, but you will STILL be traveling the same distance to each store.

Maybe part of the experience, at least MY experience, was taking in the "grandeur" of the building (even though I considered it excessive, but that's another story). Your approach is part of the experience, and I would imagine that Ms P would be the FIRST to complain if she were NOT allowed to traverse the same path that the rest of us were able to enjoy. If she had to use a side entrance because it is more accessible, she would complain even louder.

There is no pleasing some people, and there is certainly no way to please ALL people.

[Lost in Translation]

This discussion was just forwarded to me by a colleague. I am one of several ASL interpreters who frequently provides services to the NPS. It is on an as-needed basis, and deaf visitors alert the park in advance of their plans to tour, whether it's with an LBG or a ranger.

There was an LBG who was fluent in ASL, but is now in failing health and no longer working. Perhaps the NPS employee was thinking of this person.

As a point of reference, most deaf people I know do not consider themselves disabled, and are perfectly capable of planning ahead when visiting new places. Many deaf people consider themselves members of a linguistic and cultural minority, rather than handicapped.

I haven't been to the new building yet, so I don't know if the film is open or closed-captioned. Does it make financial sense to have all showings live-interpreted? No. Should an interpreter be paid to hang around just in case a deaf person comes in? Not realistic.

Should there be a holding pen of language interpreters paid to hang around all day in case a Portuguese-speaking family visits, or a Mandarin-speaking family, or a Japanese-speaking family? There would probably be arrangements made to hire an interpreter if their plans were made known in advance.

Elizabeth Ann Monn, Ph.D., CI/CT, NAD V (Master Interpreter)
Gettysburg

[clm750]

Mrs. Phillips,
I have been following your crusade via this forum, boroughvent.com and local print media. By now you must realize that people who are born with disabilities or have suffered medical or traumatic injury and are now disabled are less than pleased with your behavior. I have counted a significant number of written pleas by disabled persons who are politely requesting you cease this abusive behavior.
So at the risk of being repetitive, can you please stop this unnecessary and disruptive behavior? What you are doing is making life difficult for people with disabilities. We all have had enough, please please stop this nonsense.

[Blah Blah Blah]

Like I have said in my recent posts for any support for Ms. P. There is none. Stop this juvenile nonsense. Ph.D my a$$. And like I said before, no good common sense, no support and no friends. Sorry
you lose.

[Fed-up]

Gene Golden wrote:

I was once told by an ADA consultant, "Blind people don't touch signs, sign-makers do."
Can you imagine walking into that building and trying to find the wall that may just happen to have the Braille Restroom sign?
A blind person without a guide with him, would be totally lost in there. I'm sighted, and I couldn't tell you where the toilets are.
Wouldn't it be a lot easier for him to ask for an escort, or is that not dignified? Sighted persons do it all the time!
I think that a blind person wandering the building, in search of anything, would be so much less dignified.
And I didn't see many displays that were even slightly oriented toward the visually impaired. When are they coming? I see another PHRC complaint!
MJP-"If, in my email to Ms. James, I failed to catch that error, I apologize to the Sun and its readers. "
"IF"... "IF"? I think Ms P misses a lot of errors, but I guess there is a slight possibility that Erin James misquoted the email. I certainly hope not. I believe Ms P should apologize to the Sun and its readers for MUCH MORE than a poorly thought out email.
Gallaudet grad,
Do you feel it is necessary to hire a person to provide ASL services? Should they be on-staff at all times? Should they be interpreting the Battle Movie at every showing, or should they have just incorporated ASL into the corner of the movie, or maybe it should have captions at the bottom?
In that huge building, if you need to find out information, would you rather wait for an interpretor, or just write notes back and forth with a hearing individual? Is it worth it for this Visitor Center to employ an interpretor at an additional, what $35,000 a year, just to be on standby on the slight chance that you may need his services?
MJP-"Apparently, NPS "used to have" an ASL interpreter, but no longer." Did they have an interpretor HIRED for that job, or was an employee just fortunate enough to know ASL? Which dialect of ASL?

Gene, don't get upset at the Gallaudet Grad. I don't think this person was happy with MJP either. He/she did the right thing by calling ahead to have an interpreter there so he/she could enjoy the new visitor center. To me, that made a lot of sense.

MJP, just because you don't "see" it doesn't mean it isn't available. The Gallaudet Grad didn't make a big stink about the NPS not having an on-staff interpreter because she/he used the common sense afforded her/him by calling ahead to be sure someone would be there that could interpret. I have a blind grandfather and he never ever used the braille signs on the walls. You are so quick to tell everyone else that common sense should tell them what to do, but really you need some common sense yourself. If the building complies with what the law states, that should be the end of it. The law doesn't deal in shoulda woulda couldas. It deals in facts. If you don't like the way the law is written, get it changed. Bringing lawsuits against the common man won't change the law. Why not request the ADA give an definitive distance for parking spaces for the handicapped. That also brings up my next point. Since when did you earn a degree in architecture? Are you a builder? Did you take the tests to become a Code Enforcement Officer? You say you are a consultant but are you certified?

[yeah-but]

Fed-up, bringing complaints and lawsuits against the common man actually will change the law. But not to suit MJP. Enough "common men" are getting pissed off and that will change legislation to make her M.O. illegal. So she's shooting herself in the foot. And rightfully so. The law and the agencies that enforce it are flawed.

[Gene Golden]

Fed Up and Gallaudet Grad,
Those were legitimate questions that have been floating around in my head - as ONE disability requires attention, so do the rest. I just wondered what a common-sense approach would be for the hearing impaired.

I was not trying to be smart by asking those questions, and I was not at all upset with Gallaudet Grad. I considered those questions in order to make a comparison in "accessibility accommodations" for different groups needs.

I was asking GG for an opinion as to "how far is too far - or how little is too little?".

I think that Lost in Translation was able to satisfy those answers just fine. It was just about what I had suspected when I asked the questions.

Thanks

[Fed-up]

yeah-but wrote:

Fed-up, bringing complaints and lawsuits against the common man actually will change the law. But not to suit MJP. Enough "common men" are getting pissed off and that will change legislation to make her M.O. illegal. So she's shooting herself in the foot. And rightfully so. The law and the agencies that enforce it are flawed.

Isn't what she is doing already illegal? Isn't it simple harassment? I would like to see our legislative system for once, work on behalf of the victim rather than the perpetrator.

[Fed-up]

Gene Golden wrote:

Fed Up and Gallaudet Grad,
Those were legitimate questions that have been floating around in my head - as ONE disability requires attention, so do the rest. I just wondered what a common-sense approach would be for the hearing impaired.
I was not trying to be smart by asking those questions, and I was not at all upset with Gallaudet Grad. I considered those questions in order to make a comparison in "accessibility accommodations" for different groups needs.
I was asking GG for an opinion as to "how far is too far - or how little is too little?".
I think that Lost in Translation was able to satisfy those answers just fine. It was just about what I had suspected when I asked the questions.
Thanks

I understand, Gene. I didn't want you go upset someone who is actually using their God given common sense. Most folks, whether they have a disability or not, will call ahead if they have special needs that need addressed. Only those folks who have no common sense or think everything revolves around them do not call ahead.
I enjoy reading your comments, Gene. You have made many good points. It is too bad those in charge don't pay any attention to what the majority of people have to say.

[Gallaudet grad]

I'm not "hearing disabled." I never had hearing, so I haven't lost anything. I'm deaf. I learned very young that the hearing world does not cater to me. I need to make arrangements and plan well ahead. I don't expect the world to use ASL. In restaurants, I point. And smile. And be pleasant. And 98% of the time, servers are nice to me. I never leave home without a notebook. It's for communicating, not complaining.

If I want to attend a lecture, I get on the videophone and ask for an interpreter. When I want to see a show at a theater, I buy tickets a month ahead so they can find an interpreter and so the interpreter can rehearse the show.

Deaf people can do anything....except hear!

[Blah Blah Blah]

Now thats excellent common sense, I commend you and wish you well in all your endeavors.

[Gene Golden]

At the Third Ward "Town Hall" Meeting in Gettysburg last week, there was a man in a motorized scooter.(Somebody opened the side door for him... he did not object, nor did he look undignified for that matter)
As he spoke, he stood up momentarily to address the crowd. I thought that was a neat gesture on his part, but in no way was it necessary. It impressed me that he even considered doing so.

He began his statement by saying that he doesn't mean to "start any trouble, but, where they are putting in the new light poles, they block the sidewalk for wheelchairs..."

I guess he felt it was necessary to indicate that he was not causing trouble. And why do you think he felt that need? My guess is that he is very aware of the negative attitude of certain activists, and the reactions that people have towards her.
Here this man had a VERY valid complaint, and he was able to convey that problem in a calm, respectful manner.(Other persons in the audience were not as able to do quite the same, while expressing their issues).

I truly believe that the "Phillips Backlash" is beginning to be felt. That he even considered the need to bracket his statement, speaks volumes! Instead of empowering others to speak, they are afraid that they will be painted with the same brush as she is.

She is hurting the very cause she is supposed to be embracing. She just has blinders on, and they direct her rage to the extent that she is totally unaware of the circumstances of her actions.

I applaud that man from the meeting. I did not see a man with a disability - he was more able than many there. He got my respect... he spoke as a person, not as a squeaky wheelchair.

[Philadelphia Freedom]

Gene Golden wrote:

At the Third Ward "Town Hall" Meeting in Gettysburg last week, there was a man in a motorized scooter.(Somebody opened the side door for him... he did not object, nor did he look undignified for that matter)
As he spoke, he stood up momentarily to address the crowd. I thought that was a neat gesture on his part, but in no way was it necessary. It impressed me that he even considered doing so.
He began his statement by saying that he doesn't mean to "start any trouble, but, where they are putting in the new light poles, they block the sidewalk for wheelchairs..."
I guess he felt it was necessary to indicate that he was not causing trouble. And why do you think he felt that need? My guess is that he is very aware of the negative attitude of certain activists, and the reactions that people have towards her.
Here this man had a VERY valid complaint, and he was able to convey that problem in a calm, respectful manner.(Other persons in the audience were not as able to do quite the same, while expressing their issues).
I truly believe that the "Phillips Backlash" is beginning to be felt. That he even considered the need to bracket his statement, speaks volumes! Instead of empowering others to speak, they are afraid that they will be painted with the same brush as she is.
She is hurting the very cause she is supposed to be embracing. She just has blinders on, and they direct her rage to the extent that she is totally unaware of the circumstances of her actions.
I applaud that man from the meeting. I did not see a man with a disability - he was more able than many there. He got my respect... he spoke as a person, not as a squeaky wheelchair.

That's a perfect example of what you can accomplish when your not screaming at people like a crazy person .