Neutrino Finding Is Repeated in Second Experiment, Opera Scientists Say

Nov 19, 2011 Full story: www.nytimes.com 43

Two months after scientists reported that they had clocked subatomic particles known as neutrinos going faster than the speed of light , to the astonishment and vocal disbelief of most of the world's physicists , the same group of scientists, known as Opera , said on Friday that it had performed a second experiment that confirmed its first results ... (more)

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“REFUSE ALL IMITATIONS!!”

Since: Jan 11

Australia

#1 Nov 20, 2011
Is the long-accepted speed of light under threat?

The researchers are trying to rule out all variables that could produce error giving rise to this unexpected 'faster than light' result.

Among those variables, I wonder if they have considered the rotation of the Earth.

On the world map the path traced by the neutrinos they fired descends at 45 degrees South Eastward from CERN in Switzerland to Gran Sasso in Italy.

At those latitudes the surface speed of our rotating planet is something in the order of 800kph.

Theoretically then, the CERN team would have to aim their neutrino a tiny fraction ahead of Gran Sasso in its eastern travel, in anticipation of where the detector would be in order to coincide with arrival of the neutrino.

Also, Gran Sasso is traveling a little faster eastward than CERN, because it is closer to the Equator.

Putting all that together the neutrino could have ended up traveling a fractionally different distance to detection than normal Geography would suggest. This could in turn affect the apparent distance-per-time finding, giving an unexpected reading.

I'm talking very tiny, seemingly trivial amounts of offset here. But the 62 billionths of a second discrepancy in the experimental readout is even orders of magnitude tinier still, well within vulnerability to tiny offsets of the sort contemplated.

Maybe if the research teams were to fire a set of neutrinos back in the opposite direction a compensatory error would be detected, canceling out the previous errors?

“REFUSE ALL IMITATIONS!!”

Since: Jan 11

Australia

#2 Nov 21, 2011
One of the spin-off implications of Relativity is recognition of the difficulties of taking definitive measurements within a system that is not static but dynamic.
Elias

Glen Waverley, Australia

#3 Nov 21, 2011
Has the CERN team repeated their own experiment? for this to be accepted as valid the results would have to be replicated elsewhere.

Otherwise it's Ponds and Fleishman's cold fusion all over again.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#4 Nov 21, 2011
Cern has repeated the experiment with the same results and the USA facility has already had these readings a few years ago a number of times but dismissed them as wrong.

It's only logical the theory or relativity will be dismissed as wrong, light is a slow energy in this dimension as soon as they accept it, science can move forward into a dimensional understanding as that's where the faster than light realities reside.

A number if years ago they conducted an experiment where they sent audio waves (the beatles) in a molecule of some description and the first note arrived before it was sent. It was dismissed as an anomaly and the experiments where dropped, as it happened in the USA I would say the church had a lot to do with stopping it. If they discovered a dimensional medium whereby we could transmit and travel within it, outside but within this dimension, it would destroy the god nutters theories completely and all ideologies. Bring on evolution.

“REFUSE ALL IMITATIONS!!”

Since: Jan 11

Australia

#5 Nov 21, 2011
Elias wrote:
Has the CERN team repeated their own experiment? for this to be accepted as valid the results would have to be replicated elsewhere.
Otherwise it's Ponds and Fleishman's cold fusion all over again.
Yes according to the linked article the CERN team has repeated their own experiment, and despite refinements in attempts to identify and eliminate unwanted variables they have come up with the same result a second time. That can mean only two things:

1. There has been no error at either time.

or:

2. What ever caused an error the first time is still causing it.

The latter is what my surmising about Earth's rotation is meant to examine.

As you say, it would be preferable to have the same experiment carried out by an independent team and results compared.

It would be hard to duplicate the same apparatus elsewhere in the world, but even with a new team using the same apparatus the results would still be worth comparing.

At least a matched result would suggest that procedure and human error are less likely causes and narrow down the search to instrumental causes.

“REFUSE ALL IMITATIONS!!”

Since: Jan 11

Australia

#6 Nov 21, 2011
Palawa wrote:
It's only logical the theory or relativity will be dismissed as wrong, light is a slow energy in this dimension as soon as they accept it, science can move forward into a dimensional understanding as that's where the faster than light realities reside.
If light could travel faster in another dimension (assuming other dimensions exist) would it still be light? Is what we're seeing and calling 'light' just an alias for what is happening in other dimensions?

And do neutrinos follow the same behavior as light? We already know that they don't ... they can pass through a whole planet as though it were not even there, yet light can be stopped in its tracks by the flimsiest of barriers.
Palawa wrote:
A number if years ago they conducted an experiment where they sent audio waves (the beatles) in a molecule of some description and the first note arrived before it was sent. It was dismissed as an anomaly and the experiments where dropped, as it happened in the USA I would say the church had a lot to do with stopping it. If they discovered a dimensional medium whereby we could transmit and travel within it, outside but within this dimension, it would destroy the god nutters theories completely and all ideologies. Bring on evolution.
Not sure that argument holds. I see the idea of 'other dimensions' as playing right into the hands of those whose ideology and scripture seeks to explain many things away as 'miracles'. To them 'other dimensions' would provide a convenient staging post alibi for miracles to originate. To spin that the right way would strengthen their cause, according to them.

“YoU tElL mE”

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#7 Nov 21, 2011
The ADELAIDEAN wrote:
<quoted text>If light could travel faster in another dimension (assuming other dimensions exist) would it still be light? Is what we're seeing and calling 'light' just an alias for what is happening in other dimensions?
I believe sooner or later we will be forced accept strings with their eccentric behaviour (unless we would never understand uncertainty principle in its fullest). There are extremely weird quantum phenomena that keep on happening. Funny stuff. But then, if we accept strings, then we accept entanglement and the inevitable consequence is dimensions. So, you never know, it could happen.

However, even if it is conformed that neutrinos DO defy the speed barrier, the theory of relativity will still be an extremely good theory. This finding only means that we are one step closer to finding GUT.
The ADELAIDEAN wrote:
<quoted text> I see the idea of 'other dimensions' as playing right into the hands of those whose ideology and scripture seeks to explain many things away as 'miracles'. To them 'other dimensions' would provide a convenient staging post alibi for miracles to originate. To spin that the right way would strengthen their cause, according to them.
Even if this happens, a conscious God still remains a universal absurdity. We may come across something of a kind though. No hazards in accepting it then if confronted with unimpeachable evidence.

“YoU tElL mE”

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#8 Nov 21, 2011
Oops!(unless we would never understand uncertainty principle in its fullest)

Please read the above as (ELSE we would never understand uncertainty principle in its fullest)

“REFUSE ALL IMITATIONS!!”

Since: Jan 11

Australia

#9 Nov 21, 2011
ReLiGiOus OuTcAsT wrote:
<quoted text>I believe sooner or later we will be forced accept strings with their eccentric behaviour (unless we would never understand uncertainty principle in its fullest). There are extremely weird quantum phenomena that keep on happening. Funny stuff. But then, if we accept strings, then we accept entanglement and the inevitable consequence is dimensions. So, you never know, it could happen.
However, even if it is conformed that neutrinos DO defy the speed barrier, the theory of relativity will still be an extremely good theory. This finding only means that we are one step closer to finding GUT.
<quoted text>Even if this happens, a conscious God still remains a universal absurdity. We may come across something of a kind though. No hazards in accepting it then if confronted with unimpeachable evidence.
Strings & Entanglement are certainly the great hope of modern science. I'm surprised to not yet read of Entanglement being invoked in the case of the errant Gran Sasso neutrino experiment.

“REFUSE ALL IMITATIONS!!”

Since: Jan 11

Australia

#10 Nov 21, 2011
ReLiGiOus OuTcAsT wrote:
Even if this happens, a conscious God still remains a universal absurdity. We may come across something of a kind though. No hazards in accepting it then if confronted with unimpeachable evidence.
Wholeheartedly agree. The idea of a conscious God that both constructs the Universe in all its vastness and simultaneously goes "tsk tsk" invisibly over my shoulder if I ogle a glossy Centerfold is incongruous. If we really think that a God is that concerned with us each personally then we laughably overrate our own importance in the Big Picture.

“YoU tElL mE”

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#11 Nov 21, 2011
The ADELAIDEAN wrote:
<quoted text>
Strings & Entanglement are certainly the great hope of modern science. I'm surprised to not yet read of Entanglement being invoked in the case of the errant Gran Sasso neutrino experiment.
Too difficult in practical observation. Due to uncertainty principle, We are by default confronted with quantum fuzz. Secondly strings are supposed to be unending loops displaying different properties according to the requirement in question. See by thinking this, we are totally discarding the confusion of particle spin.

It no doubt is an exceptionally brilliant theory, but let us wait for the conforming observations. Fingers crossed.*smile*

(BTW I am an anthropologist by profession and I also have a degree in Law. Physics and especially Quantum Physics is a field of interest. So, I may not be an expert commentator on this matter)

“YoU tElL mE”

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#12 Nov 21, 2011
The ADELAIDEAN wrote:
<quoted text>
Wholeheartedly agree. The idea of a conscious God that both constructs the Universe in all its vastness and simultaneously goes "tsk tsk" invisibly over my shoulder if I ogle a glossy Centerfold is incongruous. If we really think that a God is that concerned with us each personally then we laughably overrate our own importance in the Big Picture.
LOL. So true.

“REFUSE ALL IMITATIONS!!”

Since: Jan 11

Australia

#13 Nov 21, 2011
ReLiGiOus OuTcAsT wrote:
<quoted text>Too difficult in practical observation. Due to uncertainty principle, We are by default confronted with quantum fuzz. Secondly strings are supposed to be unending loops displaying different properties according to the requirement in question. See by thinking this, we are totally discarding the confusion of particle spin.
It no doubt is an exceptionally brilliant theory, but let us wait for the conforming observations. Fingers crossed.*smile*
It's all riveting stuff, and I especially admire those writers today who can popularize Science for the layman without necessarily dumbing it down.
ReLiGiOus OuTcAsT wrote:
(BTW I am an anthropologist by profession and I also have a degree in Law. Physics and especially Quantum Physics is a field of interest. So, I may not be an expert commentator on this matter)
Then your studies would most probably have included Philosophy which was a major in my own studies. And like you I rate Physics as a field of interest. I regard Chemistry as miniaturized Physics. Some common ground there.

“YoU tElL mE”

Since: Nov 11

Location hidden

#14 Nov 21, 2011
The ADELAIDEAN wrote:
<quoted text>
It's all riveting stuff, and I especially admire those writers today who can popularize Science for the layman without necessarily dumbing it down.
<quoted text>
Then your studies would most probably have included Philosophy which was a major in my own studies. And like you I rate Physics as a field of interest. I regard Chemistry as miniaturized Physics. Some common ground there.
Oh yes. We had John Locke, Socrates, Aristotle. I also like Confucius.

“REFUSE ALL IMITATIONS!!”

Since: Jan 11

Australia

#15 Nov 21, 2011
ReLiGiOus OuTcAsT wrote:
<quoted text>Oh yes. We had John Locke, Socrates, Aristotle. I also like Confucius.
Among many. I studied for a time under Professor J J Smart ... eccentric but brilliant. lol!

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#16 Nov 22, 2011
The ADELAIDEAN wrote:
<quoted text>
If light could travel faster in another dimension (assuming other dimensions exist) would it still be light? Is what we're seeing and calling 'light' just an alias for what is happening in other dimensions?
And do neutrinos follow the same behavior as light? We already know that they don't ... they can pass through a whole planet as though it were not even there, yet light can be stopped in its tracks by the flimsiest of barriers.
<quoted text>
Not sure that argument holds. I see the idea of 'other dimensions' as playing right into the hands of those whose ideology and scripture seeks to explain many things away as 'miracles'. To them 'other dimensions' would provide a convenient staging post alibi for miracles to originate. To spin that the right way would strengthen their cause, according to them.
Other dimensions have to exist, otherwise the whole of existence is illogical. There are many dimensional realities within our own viewable dimension we interact with every minute of our lives, so it's only logical we may be within another dimension which can interact with us. All we have to do is find the right formula to get access to it.

I agree with you about nutters using extra dimensions to further their mythical causes, but would tend to think dimensions outside our own and which we are a part of would not be conducive to the belief in gods.

Would assume that any form of intelligence in another dimension, would not be superior to us. More than likely they would be unable to exist here just as we may not in their world. I've always leaned towards seeing some flying saucers etc as just things from other dimensions accidentally or on purpose, transiting between dimensions. They probably move so fast and look like spheres, because we can only see the 3 dimensional aspect of them and not their true reality. They could disappear fast becuase they can only stay here a few seconds before being either destroyed or whisked back to their own place.

However who knows, but I remember reading about them sending the musical note at the USA facility just after it started up and the receiver recorded it just before they pushed the send button. How that works, I don't know, it's either a time shift or dimensional shift where our understanding of time as determined by light speed means nothing.

I believe light is stable and not dimensional, what it would be called in another dimension is irrelevant as we have no idea of the make up of any dimension outside our own universal one.

Neutrino's may be on a bridge between dimensions, that's why it can be measured, yet is not subject to physical laws. So there are probably other things which travel at extra dimensional speeds within our own existence whilst using it like a neutrino. If neutrinos can pass through solid planets, why not other things exceeding the speed of light using dimensional bridging. After all, light speed may restrict us from seeing them if they are much faster.
Ian

Australia

#17 Nov 22, 2011
Palawa wrote:
Cern has repeated the experiment with the same results and the USA facility has already had these readings a few years ago a number of times but dismissed them as wrong.
It's only logical the theory or relativity will be dismissed as wrong, light is a slow energy in this dimension as soon as they accept it, science can move forward into a dimensional understanding as that's where the faster than light realities reside.
A number if years ago they conducted an experiment where they sent audio waves (the beatles) in a molecule of some description and the first note arrived before it was sent. It was dismissed as an anomaly and the experiments where dropped, as it happened in the USA I would say the church had a lot to do with stopping it. If they discovered a dimensional medium whereby we could transmit and travel within it, outside but within this dimension, it would destroy the god nutters theories completely and all ideologies. Bring on evolution.
The cattle tick church are responsible for funding any part of the space program that has to do with the sun. You may have read or heard recently, that a star in our galaxy has an orbiting planet, that is so close to the star's orbit, that it seems improbable that it can maintain it's static orbit without succumbing to the immense gravitational pull of the star, but also, the planet itself is blacker than pitch black and gives off zero light! It is thought to be the size of Jupiter.

That may sound strange, but what is even far more strange, is objects like that have been detected by the SOHO satellite that the catholic church owns, which orbits our own sun. That's right, these black planets have appeared in data sent back from SOHO and NASA or the power that controls supposedly publicly available data, has been censoring these images. Much like nude pictures, with black pixels!

Sorry to stray off topic, but the church came up. The bible story may be baloney, but the church is unfortunately very real. Who is the most powerful man on earth? Would you say Hu Jintao, Obama or the Pope? That may or may not be a trick question, but there has been a lot of trickery involved.
Elias

Glen Waverley, Australia

#18 Nov 22, 2011
Palawa wrote:
<quoted text>
Other dimensions have to exist, otherwise the whole of existence is illogical. There are many dimensional realities within our own viewable dimension we interact with every minute of our lives, so it's only logical we may be within another dimension which can interact with us. All we have to do is find the right formula to get access to it.
I agree with you about nutters using extra dimensions to further their mythical causes, but would tend to think dimensions outside our own and which we are a part of would not be conducive to the belief in gods.
Would assume that any form of intelligence in another dimension, would not be superior to us. More than likely they would be unable to exist here just as we may not in their world. I've always leaned towards seeing some flying saucers etc as just things from other dimensions accidentally or on purpose, transiting between dimensions. They probably move so fast and look like spheres, because we can only see the 3 dimensional aspect of them and not their true reality. They could disappear fast becuase they can only stay here a few seconds before being either destroyed or whisked back to their own place.
However who knows, but I remember reading about them sending the musical note at the USA facility just after it started up and the receiver recorded it just before they pushed the send button. How that works, I don't know, it's either a time shift or dimensional shift where our understanding of time as determined by light speed means nothing.
I believe light is stable and not dimensional, what it would be called in another dimension is irrelevant as we have no idea of the make up of any dimension outside our own universal one.
Neutrino's may be on a bridge between dimensions, that's why it can be measured, yet is not subject to physical laws. So there are probably other things which travel at extra dimensional speeds within our own existence whilst using it like a neutrino. If neutrinos can pass through solid planets, why not other things exceeding the speed of light using dimensional bridging. After all, light speed may restrict us from seeing them if they are much faster.
Have you read Erich Von Daniken?
He proposes alien/dimensional beings were the original gods that visited mankind.

It might be an interesting explanation over the islamic obsession with the pagan stone of mecca as it came from space.

“REFUSE ALL IMITATIONS!!”

Since: Jan 11

Australia

#19 Nov 22, 2011
To summarize so far we have shared some different thinking styles. Two have looked to unknown states of existence for explanation of the CERN findings, including the possibility of things able to travel faster than light. Conversely I do not yet believe that we have exhausted known states of existence for explanation and still believe that observation techniques or apparatus may hold the clue.

“REFUSE ALL IMITATIONS!!”

Since: Jan 11

Australia

#20 Nov 22, 2011
Elias wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you read Erich Von Daniken?
He proposes alien/dimensional beings were the original gods that visited mankind.
Von Daniken captured imagination widely at first, but was soon discredited. The most damning charge leveled against his views is that he has failed to apply "Occam's Razor". In short, most or even all of his out-of-this-world explanations could be matched just as persuasively by perfectly Earthbound and mundane explanations. In short, he got shot down in flames by much more scholarly counterclaims and more disciplined thinking.
Elias wrote:
It might be an interesting explanation over the islamic obsession with the pagan stone of mecca as it came from space.
That's only if one believes the Von Danikens of this world.

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