I believe in intelligent design

Full story: Sunday Times

Matthew Du Plessis: Regular readers could easily be forgiven for thinking that the weekly scribblings that appear here under my byline are the work of a godless heathen.

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“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

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#21
Sep 6, 2010
 
MTO wrote:
if it wasn't for those people who believe in God, the wicked and mischevious people would run rampant.
There are plenty of people who believe in God, yet are also wicked and mischevious and feel justified in "running rampant" regardless of their belief.

Predictibly, your answer will be "well those persons are'nt 'true Christians'."

But I totally reject your assertation that religious = moral. It *CAN* be....but so can NON-religions = moral.

"Morality" was first a set of social conventions that even the higher primates observe. Simply put, it is healthy for a society to observe sets of rules that will promote the continuation of that society.

MTO

Bellevue, WA

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#22
Sep 6, 2010
 
Domination and fear of keeping laws and rules is not really morality. True moral value comes from within, and the love of God will cause one to do what is right even when no other person is around. No body obeys all the rules all the time. None of us are perfect.

“Universal Conscious Conscience”

Since: Feb 08

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#23
Sep 6, 2010
 
Either a higher intelligence and/or GOD created life on earth, or... life came into existence by natural processes i.e., a form of spontaneous generation over a long/short period of time. Or…life always existed.

If one is to build on facts without a biased or prejudice approach, then he/she should be able to conclude the right answer to the ‘either or’ mentioned above when it comes to life’s origin.

About morality, one should be able to discern what is right and wrong by observing reality/nature and applying logic, reason and rationalizing with others without the influences of documented religions to come to a conclusion.

I personally don't endorse any documented religions, but instead trust in my GOD given senses to know what is right and wrong by observing reality/nature, applying logic, reason and rationalizing with others to come to the conclusion on what is right and wrong. Some topics on discovering what is right and wrong are more complex then others, but an answer can be found in time.

“Maccullochella macquariensis”

Since: May 08

Melbourne, Australia

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#24
Sep 7, 2010
 
Infinite Force wrote:
Either a higher intelligence and/or GOD created life on earth, or... life came into existence by natural processes i.e., a form of spontaneous generation over a long/short period of time. Or…life always existed.
You have an unspoken assumption here - that there is a clear delineation between living and non-living - and so as a consequence you present a false dichotomy.

Even today, after billions of years of evolution,(remember evolution is NOT about abiogenesis) the line is not absolutely clear, for example, are viruses alive or not? There is no clear answer to this question, and it does lead us to consider that in the early development of life the process was most likely gradual - living things that we might recognise today did not spring up by magic fully formed (of course, this is exactly what Creationists and ID proponents propose).

Laboratory experimentation has shown that self replicating organic molecules can spontaneously arise given the right conditions, conditions which would have been present on the early Earth. It does not take any imagination to see that a gradual development of these molecules over time (and there was literally billions of years for this) that some would become more prevalent than others - a form of pre-evolution if you like, after all these are still not living things - Somewhere along the way these processes crossed an line into what we might call living.

However, we should remember that the concept of "living" is a human concept - nature is not bound to follow our rules just to suit us. It is rather like the definition of species - it is convenient to consider species as being discrete from each other, but those with more than a passing interest in biology will know that there are countless cases where the differences between one species and the next are anything but clear cut and often are in essence arbitrary. So it is for what is a living organism. Whilst it may be clear in most cases, at the margins it is anything but clear. As always in science it is at the margins that the interesting stuff happens and it is at the margins where your comic book version of the reality fails most profoundly.

So your card board cut out version of reality once again fails. You think that by presenting a cartoon version of the world that somehow you can fool people into thinking you are saying something profound. Well, maybe for others who get their science out of comic books you may well seem to be, but for anyone with more than a smattering of knowledge about science and the real world it is apparent that your refutations of real science are vacuous, just like your so called arguments for creation.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#25
Sep 7, 2010
 
MTO wrote:
<quoted text>NO, NOT what I said. I said if we had now way of knowing right from wrong, and if we thought there would be no repercussions, then we may act upon any silly whem that may come into our minds. Everyone has a since of what is wrong because of either what they have observed or what they have been taught by someone with moral values.
Oh, now you're saying it's a learned skill based on observations and upbringing? Because up above you said only a "healthy fear of God" makes people moral. And that is what I disputed, as that isn't morality at all.

Guess I should have known better to get any sense out of you though, BB.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#26
Sep 7, 2010
 
MTO wrote:
Domination and fear of keeping laws and rules is not really morality. True moral value comes from within, and the love of God will cause one to do what is right even when no other person is around. No body obeys all the rules all the time. None of us are perfect.
That's nice.(yawn)

Man I love it when you preach. Not that it has anything to do with the topic though.

“Jesus forgives..... ”

Since: May 08

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#27
Sep 7, 2010
 

Judged:

1

1

1

Was it by coincidence that these molecules had jumped into becoming alive without receiving spiritual form from the higher being?

Was it by coincidence that a monkey looking crature become a human?

Humans are more special...they come by spiritual sense all the way from heaven. They inherited the spirit of God.

Did a monkey-looking creature that had evolved into a human received the spirit of God?

No life form sprung as if by magic but God controlled their existence. To humans, he gave his spirit and to those animals, just life sustaining them growing until old age.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#28
Sep 7, 2010
 
Infinite Force wrote:
Either a higher intelligence and/or GOD created life on earth, or... life came into existence by natural processes i.e., a form of spontaneous generation over a long/short period of time. Or…life always existed.
If one is to build on facts without a biased or prejudice approach, then he/she should be able to conclude the right answer to the ‘either or’ mentioned above when it comes to life’s origin.
About morality, one should be able to discern what is right and wrong by observing reality/nature and applying logic, reason and rationalizing with others without the influences of documented religions to come to a conclusion.
I personally don't endorse any documented religions, but instead trust in my GOD given senses to know what is right and wrong by observing reality/nature, applying logic, reason and rationalizing with others to come to the conclusion on what is right and wrong. Some topics on discovering what is right and wrong are more complex then others, but an answer can be found in time.
And uh, have you figured out yet (using observations, logic and reason of course) whether your god is an undetectable invisible magic dude that lives on another plane of existence or were they little green men? If it's the latter, I'm sure the Raellians will hold a place open for you.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#29
Sep 7, 2010
 
Bluenose wrote:
<quoted text>
You have an unspoken assumption here - that there is a clear delineation between living and non-living - and so as a consequence you present a false dichotomy.
Even today, after billions of years of evolution,(remember evolution is NOT about abiogenesis) the line is not absolutely clear, for example, are viruses alive or not? There is no clear answer to this question, and it does lead us to consider that in the early development of life the process was most likely gradual - living things that we might recognise today did not spring up by magic fully formed (of course, this is exactly what Creationists and ID proponents propose).
Laboratory experimentation has shown that self replicating organic molecules can spontaneously arise given the right conditions, conditions which would have been present on the early Earth. It does not take any imagination to see that a gradual development of these molecules over time (and there was literally billions of years for this) that some would become more prevalent than others - a form of pre-evolution if you like, after all these are still not living things - Somewhere along the way these processes crossed an line into what we might call living.
However, we should remember that the concept of "living" is a human concept - nature is not bound to follow our rules just to suit us. It is rather like the definition of species - it is convenient to consider species as being discrete from each other, but those with more than a passing interest in biology will know that there are countless cases where the differences between one species and the next are anything but clear cut and often are in essence arbitrary. So it is for what is a living organism. Whilst it may be clear in most cases, at the margins it is anything but clear. As always in science it is at the margins that the interesting stuff happens and it is at the margins where your comic book version of the reality fails most profoundly.
So your card board cut out version of reality once again fails. You think that by presenting a cartoon version of the world that somehow you can fool people into thinking you are saying something profound. Well, maybe for others who get their science out of comic books you may well seem to be, but for anyone with more than a smattering of knowledge about science and the real world it is apparent that your refutations of real science are vacuous, just like your so called arguments for creation.
Remember that I-F believes evolution is wrong because the creator(s) used UFO's to transport fully developed species to Earth at an interval of once every one million years.

And I betcha thought MTO was nuts, didn't ya?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#30
Sep 7, 2010
 
Divine Alien wrote:
Was it by coincidence that these molecules had jumped into becoming alive without receiving spiritual form from the higher being?
Was it by coincidence that a monkey looking crature become a human?
Humans are more special...they come by spiritual sense all the way from heaven. They inherited the spirit of God.
Did a monkey-looking creature that had evolved into a human received the spirit of God?
No life form sprung as if by magic but God controlled their existence. To humans, he gave his spirit and to those animals, just life sustaining them growing until old age.
Whoooaaaa, and here's DA to complete the set! I now declare this thread to be our official mental ward!
MTO

Bellevue, WA

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#31
Sep 7, 2010
 
Different perspectives make life interesting. ARE WE HAVING FUN YET?
MTO

Bellevue, WA

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#32
Sep 7, 2010
 
Wouldn't things be dull around here without different perspectives? Are we having fun yet?
MTO

Bellevue, WA

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#33
Sep 7, 2010
 
Divine Alien wrote:
Was it by coincidence that these molecules had jumped into becoming alive without receiving spiritual form from the higher being?
Was it by coincidence that a monkey looking crature become a human?
Humans are more special...they come by spiritual sense all the way from heaven. They inherited the spirit of God.
Did a monkey-looking creature that had evolved into a human received the spirit of God?
No life form sprung as if by magic but God controlled their existence. To humans, he gave his spirit and to those animals, just life sustaining them growing until old age.
Yes, everything is made up of atoms and it is a higher being that brings it all together for his purpose.
MTO

Bellevue, WA

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#34
Sep 7, 2010
 
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, now you're saying it's a learned skill based on observations and upbringing? Because up above you said only a "healthy fear of God" makes people moral. And that is what I disputed, as that isn't morality at all.
Guess I should have known better to get any sense out of you though, BB.
A healthy fear of God causes morality in the first place.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#35
Sep 7, 2010
 
MTO wrote:
Different perspectives make life interesting. ARE WE HAVING FUN YET?
Wheeeeeeee!
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#36
Sep 7, 2010
 
MTO wrote:
<quoted text>A healthy fear of God causes morality in the first place.
Like I said: psychopathy. For if you are doing "good" only out of fear of punishment, you are not really moral.

“I am evolving as fast as I can”

Since: Jan 08

Brooklyn, in Dayton OH now

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#37
Sep 7, 2010
 
MTO wrote:
Domination and fear of keeping laws and rules is not really morality. True moral value comes from within, and the love of God will cause one to do what is right even when no other person is around. No body obeys all the rules all the time. None of us are perfect.
So "Do as God wishes of suffer in hell for all eternity!" isn't really morality by your own definiton? That seems to be the basis for religious morality. There are many a moral person who doesn't need the crutch of religion to be so.

“I am evolving as fast as I can”

Since: Jan 08

Brooklyn, in Dayton OH now

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#38
Sep 7, 2010
 
MTO wrote:
<quoted text>A healthy fear of God causes morality in the first place.
So you admit it, your religion is based on fear and intimidation. Yet you claim non-religious morality is not the same. MTO, ever heard the word 'hypocrite'? If you need help understanding it, look in the mirror.

Since: Nov 08

Boise, ID

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#39
Sep 7, 2010
 

Judged:

1

MTO wrote:
<quoted text>You have something to keep you in line.
Yes, we have a conscience. Don't you have one? Or do you have to be told by someone else what to do and not do?
Knowing what the right thing to do in any given circumstance is, has been taught to you by someone, and that someone got their information from a moral source in many instances.
We get this information from empathy, our ability to put ourselves on other people's shoes. We are capable of knowing what emotions our actions cause in others. We know ahead of time that certain actions cause emotional pain in others, and we know from experience that emotional pain is not something you enjoy. We ARE a moral source. No need to look elsewhere.

Since: Nov 08

Boise, ID

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#40
Sep 7, 2010
 
MTO wrote:
<quoted text>A healthy fear of God causes morality in the first place.
No it doesn't. It causes obedience. Obedience is not morality. You are acting as if humans have the same moral aptitude as a dog. I disagree. Unlike obedient dogs who fear their masters, we are moral agents. We are capable of judging what is right and wrong all by ourselves.

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