The Rocks Versus Clocks Debate: When Did Modern Birds Exist?

Feb 6, 2008 | Posted by: Cash | Full story: www.scientificblogging.com

Paleontologists, who use estimates based on the fossil record, and scientists who use "molecular clock" methods to study evolutionary history, have never agreed on when modern birds came into existence, because they have had conflicting results.

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Fossil Bob

Urbana, IL

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#62
Feb 20, 2008
 
Womba wrote:
For the last 150 years evol has been based on faith. Faith on the discovery that the gaps in the fosil record will be filled, faith that PE ( now embraced as a adjunct of NS ) will make up for any deficiencies in natural selection and on and on
Evolutionists have more faith than the "christian" faithful.
With regard to post #57 the Tiktaalik is a fully formed, fully functional lobe-finned fish. Nothing transitional about that.
With the millions of fossils in warehouses and museums, all are fully functional in their environment, nothing transitional about them. They work. Let's have a true "missing link" ( hate using that antiquated phrase).
Evol is a belief system. You do or you don't.
I think that defines religion also ( I wonder about creationists though ).
Thanks for your response.
Best wishes to you.
"Transitional" organisms ARE ALWAYS "fully functional" and always "work" (to use your words).

Where on Earth did you come up with the idea that they WEREN'T???

ALL species are transitional in some sense...

ALL species are complete, functional, organisms...

You seem to have this bizarre concept that transitional creatures are crippled, virtually non-functional, organisms caught between 2 "real" species...

Evolutionary theory says NOTHING of the sort. Your concept is terribly mistaken.

Tiktaalik, BTW, has features of both amphibian AND fish...

“Religion stops a thinking mind”

Since: Nov 07

Salt Lake City, UT

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#63
Feb 20, 2008
 
Womba wrote:
For the last 150 years evol has been based on faith. Faith on the discovery that the gaps in the fosil record will be filled, faith that PE ( now embraced as a adjunct of NS ) will make up for any deficiencies in natural selection and on and on
Evolutionists have more faith than the "christian" faithful.
With regard to post #57 the Tiktaalik is a fully formed, fully functional lobe-finned fish. Nothing transitional about that.
With the millions of fossils in warehouses and museums, all are fully functional in their environment, nothing transitional about them. They work. Let's have a true "missing link" ( hate using that antiquated phrase).
Evol is a belief system. You do or you don't.
I think that defines religion also ( I wonder about creationists though ).
Thanks for your response.
Best wishes to you.
I would rather base my beliefs on solid evidence than the ramblings of a bunch of unknown authors any day of the week.
Womba

Englewood, FL

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#64
Feb 20, 2008
 
The transition from fish fin to lob fin, according to evol, didn't happen over night. That's logical.

A fish with fins didn't suddenly have a lob finned offspring, that doesn't happen.

Where are the fossils of the "transitional" fins between the fish fin and lob fin. There should be millions of them (whether they are or are not crippled makes little difference in this discussion).

With the logic I see expressed for evol I can do the same with cars.

Line up a VW, with a chevy, then a Caddy limo and say they evolved that way. That is the "logic" I see in evol.

One could use morphing software and do this easily between the VW and Caddy. There would be thousands of "transitional" cars. Functional or not they would be the transitions between the VW and Caddy, including the Chevy.

In evol we see only fully functional ( some might not like this word ) representations of the theory. Where are the in-betweens ?

That is why I say that Evolution is a religion. It takes faith to envision the "transitions" between fully formed animals.

How are you doing Bob ? Hope all is well with you.
Womba

Englewood, FL

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#65
Feb 20, 2008
 
FedUpAmerican wrote:
<quoted text>
I would rather base my beliefs on solid evidence than the ramblings of a bunch of unknown authors any day of the week.
I understand exactly what you mean. The churches have been remiss in teaching even a little information about the Bible. What they do teach is tradition and many times superstition. And Creationism is the worst of both worlds.

Many people are disgusted by what their churches have dished out.

But, that doesn’t negate the true teachings of the Holy Bible.

Wishing you all the best.

“Religion stops a thinking mind”

Since: Nov 07

Salt Lake City, UT

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#66
Feb 20, 2008
 
Womba wrote:
<quoted text>
I understand exactly what you mean. The churches have been remiss in teaching even a little information about the Bible. What they do teach is tradition and many times superstition. And Creationism is the worst of both worlds.
Many people are disgusted by what their churches have dished out.
But, that doesn’t negate the true teachings of the Holy Bible.
Wishing you all the best.
I understand what you are saying, but seriously, if you strip away the tradition and the superstition, there isn't much left. If it had any validity at all, it wouldn't be so easy to poke massive gaping holes in the stories told by the bible.

It also doesn't take much research to see that the bible is made up of stories taken from other religions and presented in language that is painful to read and obviously not even close to the original intent or verbiage.

What is left to take seriously?
Womba

Englewood, FL

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#67
Feb 20, 2008
 
FedUpAmerican wrote:
<quoted text>
What is left to take seriously?
You are right. Sad commentary on Christendom.
Don't stop looking for Truth.
Best wishes....

Since: Dec 07

Atlanta

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#68
Feb 20, 2008
 
Womba wrote:
With the logic I see expressed for evol I can do the same with cars.
Line up a VW, with a chevy, then a Caddy limo and say they evolved that way. That is the "logic" I see in evol.
One could use morphing software and do this easily between the VW and Caddy. There would be thousands of "transitional" cars. Functional or not they would be the transitions between the VW and Caddy, including the Chevy.
No someone familiar with evolution who looked at the evidence would never conclude that the VW evolved into he Chevy. Sure they share some of the same features, wheels, engines, transmission, seats, doors, but they would defiantly be considered different species that would have shared a common ancestor but not direct decedents of each other. The VW’s engine to start with, while having only 4 cylinders could evolve into a six or eight cylinder type, but the angle of the cylinders placement to the camshaft would not seem to be consistent with earlier Chevy models. Also the VW is air cooled while the Chevy has a fluid cooling system, defiantly not related. The electrical system of the two also shows inherently different traits, such as a much more complicated wiring harness on the VW then compared to the Chevy, and the grounds are wired in completely different ways, all signs that a direct line does not exist from the VW to the Chevy. The classifications on the frame plates used a completely different cataloging system, and the interior controls are located in radically ergonomically different positions all signs that there was no direct evolution between the two.
Oh and the measurement systems of the hardware between the two, metric, and standard, and the placement of the engines, front and rear, would be a final blow to any idea that the Chevy evolved from the VW.

All an evolutionist would conclude was that they shared a common ancestor …perhaps the model T.

Now you could conclude that the VW evolved into in the Porsche 914 if your had the fossil of the 914!
Fossil Bob

Urbana, IL

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#69
Feb 21, 2008
 
Womba wrote:
The transition from fish fin to lob fin, according to evol, didn't happen over night. That's logical.
A fish with fins didn't suddenly have a lob finned offspring, that doesn't happen.
Where are the fossils of the "transitional" fins between the fish fin and lob fin. There should be millions of them (whether they are or are not crippled makes little difference in this discussion).
How are you doing Bob ? Hope all is well with you.
Considering that the VAST majority of organisms are NOT preserved in the "fossil record", the fact we are missing most intermediate forms is to be expected.

We'll never have anything approaching a complete record, so I won't lose sleep over it!

What we do have are a selection of transitional forms...perhaps (almost certainly) not in the direct line of descent, but showing the general appearance of creatures as one branch acquired characteristics that made it possible for them to range farther, and more efficiently into a new environment.

Changes CAN come more quickly that one might think, though... one tiny change in one gene can completely change the shape of a body part (extending certain foot bones, or thickening them, etc.?).

Notice the similarities between Eusthenopteron and Tiktaalik fins:

http://csicop.org/intelligentdesignwatch/fish...

And, as I've said...if people really get to arguing whether something is a fish or a amphibian...then clearly it's something "in-between".

Even though we lack fossils of many potential "stages", the overall sequence of fossils (with many forms that do NOT fit well into just one category, but lie between) is so powerfully suggestive of evolutionary change.

One can speculate "special creations", but there simply no "evidence-based reason" to choose that scenario when we have so much fossil evidence, and so much biological evidence.

And...I am doing well:)

“Religion stops a thinking mind”

Since: Nov 07

Salt Lake City, UT

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#70
Feb 21, 2008
 
Womba wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right. Sad commentary on Christendom.
Don't stop looking for Truth.
Best wishes....
When looking for the truth, I have learned enough to know that religion doesn't have any.
allie

United States

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#71
Feb 21, 2008
 
asome!
Womba

Englewood, FL

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#72
Feb 22, 2008
 
The_Captain wrote:
<quoted text>
No Oh and the measurement systems of the hardware between the two, metric, and standard, and the placement of the engines, front and rear, would be a final blow to any idea that the Chevy evolved from the VW.
Quick reply.
I had a car that used both metric and standard fasteners on the engine and it drove me nuts sometimes. Especially after I crawled under the vehicle and had the wrong wrench.
Little busy to reply properly :)
Womba

Englewood, FL

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#73
Feb 22, 2008
 
Fossil Bob wrote:
<quoted text>
Considering that the VAST majority of organisms are NOT preserved in the "fossil record", the fact we are missing most intermediate forms is to be expected.
Changes CAN come more quickly that one might think, though... one tiny change in one gene can completely change the shape of a body part (extending certain foot bones, or thickening them, etc.?).:
http://csicop.org/intelligentdesignwatch/fish...
.
And...I am doing well:)
Hence, Puncuated equilibrium. It was bound to come to this idea, as the fossil record exhibits a number of holes at crucial points.

Busy, better reply coming ;)
Womba

Englewood, FL

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#74
Feb 22, 2008
 
FedUpAmerican wrote:
<quoted text>
When looking for the truth, I have learned enough to know that religion doesn't have any.
Then we have no hope for the future and should eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

I believe religious Truth is out there but is not found in the "major" religions of the world.

One writer penned " seek and ye shall find ".

“Religion stops a thinking mind”

Since: Nov 07

Salt Lake City, UT

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#75
Feb 22, 2008
 
Womba wrote:
<quoted text>
Then we have no hope for the future and should eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
I believe religious Truth is out there but is not found in the "major" religions of the world.
One writer penned " seek and ye shall find ".
The "truth" is more a matter of giving up than anything else. It is a matter of someone saying "I like that idea, and I can now stop looking."

It has nothing to do with giving up because we can't pick a religious truth. Religion has nothing to do with reality or life in general.
Ben Thar

Franklin, TN

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#76
Feb 22, 2008
 
Hey there ole buddy,FedUpAmerican. If you say Christians have nothing to do with live, are you saying Jesus Christ has nothing either? Well if so I DO hope yall got some asbestoes underwear,Yalls goena be need then!!!!!!!!!!

Mormens or Moron -- The choice is still the same ..... HA HA HA HA GET RIGHT

“Religion stops a thinking mind”

Since: Nov 07

Salt Lake City, UT

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#77
Feb 22, 2008
 
Ben Thar wrote:
Hey there ole buddy,FedUpAmerican. If you say Christians have nothing to do with live, are you saying Jesus Christ has nothing either? Well if so I DO hope yall got some asbestoes underwear,Yalls goena be need then!!!!!!!!!!
Mormens or Moron -- The choice is still the same ..... HA HA HA HA GET RIGHT
Wow. Nothing says "I am a moron" better than that post.

Seriously, learn to spell and keep your pathetic ancient beliefs to yourself. Religion is nothing, Christ is a joke, but not nearly as big a joke as his many duped followers.

*Let me know if you need help with any of the big words, Skeeter.
Womba

Englewood, FL

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#78
Feb 22, 2008
 
FedUpAmerican wrote:
<quoted text>
The " Religion has nothing to do with reality or life in general.
True, religion has little to do with the Bible and living a good life.
Christian religion in this country has made a mockery of Bible truth and I can't blame anyone from turning away from it.

Hundreds of "Christian" religious denominations in this country, all claiming to teach the Bible. What a joke. They can't all be right !!!

Forget religion, look for someone who teaches the Bible.

My best to you :)
Jack

Anonymous Proxy

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#79
Feb 1, 2012
 
Some think it was so devastating that only a very few individuals of some groups (like birds) would have survived. Therefore, the vast diversity of modern birds had to come AFTER 65 million years ago.

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