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Fusionsaurus Rex

Waltham, MA

#1 Feb 13, 2012
Who wins?
Celestial Emperor

Stony Brook, NY

#2 Feb 13, 2012
Draw.
Notice african lion is specie, its not fair to compare a specie with a subspecie.
the largest current lion subspecie: Panthera. leo. krugeri is about the same size as siberian Tiger.

wild siberian tiger has a lot of exaggerated records, take those garbage out, the largest reliable record of wild siberian tiger male is about 325kg, the 1930-1970 wild males average at 215kg, current data is wild male average 176~190kg)

Panthera. leo. krugeri, the 1933 data gives wild male average of 216kg, current data wild males average at 190kg. the largest reliable record of wild male is 313kg.

Notice the largest scientific record for wild sibian male is 249.5kg (excluding data from Baikov)
the largest scientificaly confirm wild male lion is about 240kg (260kg, but -20kg stomach content)

Siberian Tiger has neglectable weight advantage against Panthera. leo. krugeri, actually tiger is smaller if you the current data

Lion advantage: longer skull, longer forelimb, possibly better stamina due to red blood cell ratio
Tiger advantage: longer canine, possibly slightly bigger bite force, slightly better agility
Fusionsaurus Rex

Waltham, MA

#3 Feb 13, 2012
Celestial Emperor wrote:
Draw.
Notice african lion is specie, its not fair to compare a specie with a subspecie.
the largest current lion subspecie: Panthera. leo. krugeri is about the same size as siberian Tiger.
wild siberian tiger has a lot of exaggerated records, take those garbage out, the largest reliable record of wild siberian tiger male is about 325kg, the 1930-1970 wild males average at 215kg, current data is wild male average 176~190kg)
Panthera. leo. krugeri, the 1933 data gives wild male average of 216kg, current data wild males average at 190kg. the largest reliable record of wild male is 313kg.
Notice the largest scientific record for wild sibian male is 249.5kg (excluding data from Baikov)
the largest scientificaly confirm wild male lion is about 240kg (260kg, but -20kg stomach content)
Siberian Tiger has neglectable weight advantage against Panthera. leo. krugeri, actually tiger is smaller if you the current data
Lion advantage: longer skull, longer forelimb, possibly better stamina due to red blood cell ratio
Tiger advantage: longer canine, possibly slightly bigger bite force, slightly better agility
In captivity battles Siberian (and other tigers) beat lions in activity battles, the a tiger has a pretty long skull, probably about the same as a lion, let me fix those advantages
Lion: longer forelimb, possibly better stamina due to red cell radio
Tiger: faster, more agile, larger bite force, better senses, bigger, larger teeth and claws.

Tiger wins 60/40.

Since: Feb 11

Winnipeg, Canada

#4 Feb 13, 2012
Fusionsaurus Rex wrote:
<quoted text>In captivity battles Siberian (and other tigers) beat lions in activity battles, the a tiger has a pretty long skull, probably about the same as a lion, let me fix those advantages
Lion: longer forelimb, possibly better stamina due to red cell radio
Tiger: faster, more agile, larger bite force, better senses, bigger, larger teeth and claws.
Tiger wins 60/40.
How the hell does the tiger have better senses, they are basically the same.
Fusionsaurus Rex

Waltham, MA

#5 Feb 13, 2012
Mattking rex wrote:
<quoted text>
How the hell does the tiger have better senses, they are basically the same.
I did not mean by a lot, just slightly.
Celestial Emperor

Stony Brook, NY

#6 Feb 13, 2012
longest confirmed Lion(P.L.K) skull 432mm, scientific record 403mm, average skull of P.L.K is about 370mm

longest confirm siberian tiger skull, 400mm, scientific record 383mm, average length of siberian tiger is about 360mm

In captivity, there are also accounts of victory for both side. of Korean flim are just flim, nothing more.

Speed, senses is useless in combat, agility that matters. By the way, Lion is faster than Tiger, that is scientific estimate, just google scholar it.

claws are the about the same size, anyway, Lion and Tiger claw grow without limit, so claw size really is not a stable account. some of the more lazy beast actually had claws grow so long that end up hurting themself.

I am going to say this last time, average male Siberian Tiger is bigger than the average of all the male lion as a specie but not bigger than the largest lion subspecie: Panthera. leo. krugeri
Celestial Emperor

Stony Brook, NY

#7 Feb 13, 2012
Panthera. leo. krugeri = Panthera tigris altaica
P. l. bleyenberghi = panthera tigris tigris
Celestial Emperor

Stony Brook, NY

#8 Feb 13, 2012
50/50 for both lion and tiger.
Celestial Emperor

Stony Brook, NY

#9 Feb 13, 2012
historical data shows Panthera. leo. krugeri and Panthera tigris altaica are both averaging at 215kg for male and current data actually favor that PLK is slightly heavier, but this may due to the relatively degenerated ecology state of the tiger
Fusionsaurus Rex

Waltham, MA

#10 Feb 13, 2012
Celestial Emperor wrote:
longest confirmed Lion(P.L.K) skull 432mm, scientific record 403mm, average skull of P.L.K is about 370mm
longest confirm siberian tiger skull, 400mm, scientific record 383mm, average length of siberian tiger is about 360mm
In captivity, there are also accounts of victory for both side. of Korean flim are just flim, nothing more.
Speed, senses is useless in combat, agility that matters. By the way, Lion is faster than Tiger, that is scientific estimate, just google scholar it.
claws are the about the same size, anyway, Lion and Tiger claw grow without limit, so claw size really is not a stable account. some of the more lazy beast actually had claws grow so long that end up hurting themself.
I am going to say this last time, average male Siberian Tiger is bigger than the average of all the male lion as a specie but not bigger than the largest lion subspecie: Panthera. leo. krugeri
In captivity, fully grown males vs fully grown males the tiger usually wins, of course the lion may win sometimes, but most of the time a Siberian tiger (a fully grown male) beats a lion.
Claw size is a little difference, tiger claws are up to 3 inches or more whilst lions claws are about 2-2.5 inches, a tiger paw swipe may be more effective. Actually, the Siberian tiger is THE WORILD'S LARGEST CAT! Speed does not matter I know but I was just pointing that out. Senses may not be useful, but agility does like you said, the tiger has slightly more agility, which gives him an advantage. Faster? Their around the same, just because the lion and tiger have about the same leg length,(lion may have a little more) but its still around the same speed.
Siberian tigers are the LARGEST CAT EVER!! Even FULL grown lions do not reach the size of a Siberian tiger.

I still go 60/40 for the tiger.
Fusionsaurus Rex

Waltham, MA

#11 Feb 13, 2012
Btw.0, Siberian tigers are also all-around stronger and have more muscle+ more weight, when they get into an all-out battle the tiger has the advantage.
Celestial Emperor

Stony Brook, NY

#12 Feb 13, 2012
what ever you say then.....
except the captivity thing is hard to prove. unless you list all the fights ever occured.

Siberian tiger,Bengal tiger, panthera leo . krugeri are all the largest cats, there is no scientific record to confirm siberian tiger is heavier, the only thing that you can confirm that siberian tiger is the world's longest cat, the head body length is substantially longer than lion and slightly longer than bengal overall. but the shoulder high Lion > bengal > siberian

Since: Feb 11

Winnipeg, Canada

#13 Feb 13, 2012
Celestial Emperor wrote:
longest cat, the head body length is substantially longer than lion and slightly longer than bengal overall. but the shoulder high Lion > bengal > siberian
Actually that is apparently not the case with average. If we are talking length as in body length (Not including tail) the bengal tiger is the longest with a average length of 6.5 ft. However I do have criticism over that.

None the less, I have distinct criticism with the siberian tiger weight estimates done just recently. Bengal tiger size is known to vary significantly by range and the same probably appeals with the siberian. The study conducted only included siberian tigers within only on area, which as a result ignores other locations. Captive siberian tigers suggest roughly the same dimensions and weight (roughly). Due to the siberian tigers highly endangered state, this probably led to its down size, however historic body sizes should be used rather then todays as the historic sizes is the correct mass for the species before humans came along. Never the less, I think it still needs to be farther looked into.
Fusionsaurus Rex

Waltham, MA

#14 Feb 13, 2012
Celestial Emperor wrote:
what ever you say then.....
except the captivity thing is hard to prove. unless you list all the fights ever occured.
Siberian tiger,Bengal tiger, panthera leo . krugeri are all the largest cats, there is no scientific record to confirm siberian tiger is heavier, the only thing that you can confirm that siberian tiger is the world's longest cat, the head body length is substantially longer than lion and slightly longer than bengal overall. but the shoulder high Lion > bengal > siberian
Sure, we have no evidence on heavier, but a longer NAD bulkier animal should be heavier, the Siberian tiger can grow to 10 feet long or more, and weigh possibly over 675 pounds, the bangle tiger (if I'm right) is around 9-9.5 feet long and weighs 550-620+ pounds.

Since: Feb 11

Winnipeg, Canada

#15 Feb 13, 2012
Celestial Emperor wrote:
longest confirm siberian tiger skull, 400mm, scientific record 383mm, average length of siberian tiger is about 360mm
Which is odd becuase thats roughly the same size as a bengal tigers.

Bengal tiger skulls: 329-378 mm
Siberian tiger skulls: 341-383 mm

http://www.science.smith.edu/msi/pdf/i0076-35...

All in all, this would show both the siberian and bengal were at least historically the same size; also in captivity.
Celestial emperor

Stony Brook, NY

#16 Feb 13, 2012
largest specimen for lion 313kg, Siberian 325kg, Bengal 318kg, 10-12kg difference on this magnitude is you can just neglect. so, all about the same size.

Siberian is longer than Bengal, that is for quite share, currently there are some large bengal longer than Siberian due to sample size, but that is from above average specimens. both are definitely longer than Lion in body length, but shorter than lion in shoulder high
Celestial emperor

Stony Brook, NY

#17 Feb 13, 2012
the largest bengal skull is 406mm, 6mm longer than Siberian tiger, but again, bengal has a larger sample size, siberian tiger has a larger average skull length, but that is because Mazak and the russian biased in their sample for the tendency to focus on larger specimens

historic
PLK = PTT = PTA

current
PTT > = PLK >= PTA
Brother Hood of Steel

West Chester, OH

#18 Feb 13, 2012
Celestial emperor wrote:
the largest bengal skull is 406mm, 6mm longer than Siberian tiger, but again, bengal has a larger sample size, siberian tiger has a larger average skull length, but that is because Mazak and the russian biased in their sample for the tendency to focus on larger specimens

historic
PLK = PTT = PTA

current
PTT > = PLK >= PTA
As you said, the siberian is generally bigger, but we have had many cases where an animal excedes max sizes from disfigurment, ect. Such as stan the rex, he was disfigured, yet freakishley huge. The same might imply for tigers and other cats. But on this, i got to give rhe egde to the tiger, as they are generally bigger, faster, heavier, and stronger, though it would be close.
Celestial emperor

Stony Brook, NY

#19 Feb 13, 2012
one last time, Siberian Tiger size > "average of all the lion subspecies in africa", but its the same size as Panthera. leo. krugeri (the largest current lion subspecies)

Since: Feb 11

Winnipeg, Canada

#20 Feb 13, 2012
Celestial emperor wrote:
one last time, Siberian Tiger size > "average of all the lion subspecies in africa", but its the same size as Panthera. leo. krugeri (the largest current lion subspecies)
Still, tigers were found to be pound for pound stronger then a lion. In terms of forelimb strength, a lion has roughly 85% the strength of a tiger at the same weight. This is probably due to the more compact limbs of the tiger.

However, the strength information is from the bengal tiger pound for pound; I'm not sure if this necessarily appeals with the siberian.

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