triassic tyrannosauroids!!!!!!!!

[Big Al]

No, i'm not crazy, but do u know da BASAL THERIZINOSAUROID ESHANOSAURUS???
Please, read with ATTENTION THIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshanosaurus
This means dat therizinosauroids r at least 195 million years old!!!!!!!!!!
And oviraptorosauria r da sister taxon of therizinosauroidea!!! THis means dat oviraptorsaurs r AT LEAST 195 million years old!!!!!!!
And Oviraptoriformes (Therizinosauroidea+Oviraptoro sauria) is AT LEAST 200 million years old!
And da sister taxon of oviraptoriformes, Paraves (Paraves=Deinonychosauria+Avia lae) is at least 200 million years old!!!
And this means dat da yet un-named clade "oviraptoriformes+paraves " and its sister taxon (ALVAREZSAURIDAE) r at least 205 million years old! Alvarezsaurids r AT LEAST 205 ma! This means "triassic alvarezsaurids"!!!
And maniraptora (Maniraptora=Alvarezsauridae+u nnamed clade) is at least 210 million years old! And da sister taxon of maniraptora is ornithomimosauria: this means ornithomimosaurs r at least 210 million years old TOO!!!!
So maniraptoriformes (maniraptoformes=ornithomimosa uria+maniraptora) MUST BE AT LEAST 215 million YEARS OLD!!!
AND....
...
..
DO U KNOW WHO DA HELL IS DA SISTER TAXON OF MANIRAPTORIFORMES IS???? YES, IT'S TYRANNOSAUROIDEA!!!!
This means dat tyrannosauroids R AT LEAST 215 MILLION YEARS OLD!!!!!!
SO CARNOSAURS, SPINOSAUROIDS AND CERATOSAURS MUST BE EVEN OLDER....

[Spinosaur King]

Big Al wrote:

No, i'm not crazy, but do u know da BASAL THERIZINOSAUROID ESHANOSAURUS???
Please, read with ATTENTION THIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshanosaurus
This means dat therizinosauroids r at least 195 million years old!!!!!!!!!!
And oviraptorosauria r da sister taxon of therizinosauroidea!!! THis means dat oviraptorsaurs r AT LEAST 195 million years old!!!!!!!
And Oviraptoriformes (Therizinosauroidea+Oviraptoro sauria) is AT LEAST 200 million years old!
And da sister taxon of oviraptoriformes, Paraves (Paraves=Deinonychosauria+Avia lae) is at least 200 million years old!!!
And this means dat da yet un-named clade "oviraptoriformes+paraves " and its sister taxon (ALVAREZSAURIDAE) r at least 205 million years old! Alvarezsaurids r AT LEAST 205 ma! This means "triassic alvarezsaurids"!!!
And maniraptora (Maniraptora=Alvarezsauridae+u nnamed clade) is at least 210 million years old! And da sister taxon of maniraptora is ornithomimosauria: this means ornithomimosaurs r at least 210 million years old TOO!!!!
So maniraptoriformes (maniraptoformes=ornithomimosa uria+maniraptora) MUST BE AT LEAST 215 million YEARS OLD!!!
AND....
...
..
DO U KNOW WHO DA HELL IS DA SISTER TAXON OF MANIRAPTORIFORMES IS???? YES, IT'S TYRANNOSAUROIDEA!!!!
This means dat tyrannosauroids R AT LEAST 215 MILLION YEARS OLD!!!!!!
SO CARNOSAURS, SPINOSAUROIDS AND CERATOSAURS MUST BE EVEN OLDER....

cool.Never new this,thanks big al.Just think 200 milion year old spinosaurs and tyrannosaurs!

[Big Al]

Dont mention it! XD
By da way, it seems WEIRD AS HELL even 2 me. But even andrea cau agreed
I guess spinosauroids seem 2 be at 225 million years old, altough i dont know why spinosauroids took SO MANY TIME 2 evolve into spinosaurids (spinosaurids seems 2 be at least 170 million years old or so)

[Spinosaur King]

Big Al wrote:

Dont mention it! XD
By da way, it seems WEIRD AS HELL even 2 me. But even andrea cau agreed
I guess spinosauroids seem 2 be at 225 million years old, altough i dont know why spinosauroids took SO MANY TIME 2 evolve into spinosaurids (spinosaurids seems 2 be at least 170 million years old or so)

yes it is weird.Maye they evoved their speicilized adaptions when the world changed?

[PaudieN1]

Big Al wrote:

Dont mention it! XD
By da way, it seems WEIRD AS HELL even 2 me. But even andrea cau agreed
I guess spinosauroids seem 2 be at 225 million years old, altough i dont know why spinosauroids took SO MANY TIME 2 evolve into spinosaurids (spinosaurids seems 2 be at least 170 million years old or so)

Is it true? IT IS! This basically turns the whole dinosaur world on it's head! Nice work Al!

[NK Dart]

Wow.

[Stygimoloch]

Or , it could be this lends credence to the BCF hypothesis, or that the first ceolurosaurs were simply off shoots of Therizinosaurs.

[Big Al]

GUYS, THIS IS A TWISTED CLADOGRAM I MADE. DA NUMBER AT DA RIGHT MEANS HOW OLD DA CLADE HAS 2 BE OLD (IF dinosaur philogeny is correct: otherwise...)
Dinosauria 260 ma
-Ornithischia 255 ma
--Lesothosauridae 215 ma
--Fabrosauridae 215 ma
--Genasauria 215 ma
---Thyreophora 210 ma
---Cerapoda 210 ma
----Ornithopoda 205 ma
----Heterodontosauriformes 205 ma
-----Heterodontosauridae 200 ma (This is TRUE)
-----Marginocephalia 200 ma
-Saurischia 255
--Herrerasauria 250
--Eusaurischia 250
---Coelophysoidea 245 ma
---Yet unnamed clade "Dilophosauridae+Averostr a" 245 ma
----Dilophosauridae 240 ma
----Averostra 240
-----Ceratosauria 235
-----Tetanurae 235
------Spinosauroidea 230 ma
------Neotetanurae 230 ma
-------Carnosauria 225 ma
-------Coelurosauria 225 ma
--------Compsognathidae 220
--------Tyrannoraptora 220 ma
---------Coeluridae 215 ma
---------Tyrannosauroidea 215 ma
---------Maniraptoriformes 215 ma
----------Ornithomimosauria 210 ma
----------Maniraptora 210 ma
----------Alvarezsauridae 205 ma
----------Yet unnamed clade "Paraves+Oviraptoriformes 205 ma
----------Paraves 200 ma
----------Oviraptoriformes 200 ma
----------Therizinosauroidea 195 ma
----------Oviraptorosauria 195 ma

Da ages of da clades r VERY strange, but IF this is a correct relatioship cladogram, ages should be correct
But some things seems 2 be inconceivable
1)PERMIAN DINOSAURS?! Did this mean dat basal dinosaurs co-lived with gorgonopsians???
2)Triassic 225 million years old carnosaurs and coelurosaur? Da oldest known carnosaur (gasosaurus?) is just 165 million years old, altough there r "a few fossil traces tentatively associated with the coelurosauria dat date back as far as the late Triassic" FROM WIKI and dinodata
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelurosauria#Fo...
http://www.dinodata.org/index.php...
3)215 million years old tyrannosauroids?! Very recently discovered proceratosaurus is oldest known tyrannosauroid, given dat it's 165 million years old. And some scientists now consider da even older iliosuchus 2 be a basal tyrannosauroid. What if iliosuchus turns out 2 be a basal tyrannosauroid? Iliosuchus could support da idea of triassic tyrannosauroids
5)210 million years old ornithomimosaurs? Well, shuvosaurines (triassic rauisuchians) resembe SO much ornithomimosaurs. Effigia could be even a "ornithomimus-mimus" LOL
5)Could this HUGE theropod "ghost lineage" have 2 do with da ornithischian huge "ghost lineage"? I'm referrin 2 yinlong and heterodontosauriformes... and i'm referrin at da fact dat marginocephalia (bein da sister taxon of heterodontosauridae) seems 2 be at least 200 million years old: so ceratopsians and pachycephalosaurus would be older than previously tough

[NK Dart]

Awesome Big Al.

[Sakib]

Well, firstly, you'd be wrong in assuming a Triassic tyrannosaurid. Just because oviraptorids are related to therizinosaurids, does not mean that they both evolved at the same time. The same applies for tyrannosaurids. As the fossil record indicates, they came into being in the early cretaceous, nowehere near the Triassic.

Also, if you read the article, it states that it was found below Lufengosaurus and its kin, indicating that it was indeed a prosauropod. Note also that these animals bear a resemblance to therizinosaurids.

Also, I think your cladogram is incorrect in its conjectures. If indeed these dinosaurs were already this diverse at the beginning of the current dinosaur age, then we would notice that in the fossil record. According to your beloved Wikipedia, the majority of dinosaurs found in the Triassic layers of rock are quite limited in their infraorder diversity to sauropoda, prosauropoda, herrerasauria and so on. More diversity would reveal tetanurae and the other more advanced groups of dinosaurs.

[Big Al]

How u dare contest me? LOL XD
Just kiddin
By da way, i see u dont know rigorous dinosaur philogeny. OviraptorOSAURIA and TherizinosaurOIDEA r sister taxa
I didnt say oviraptorIDS (oviraptorIDAE) and therizinosaurIDS (therizinosaurIDAE), i said oviraptorSAURS (oviraptorOSAURIA) and therizinosaurOIDS
Sister taxa appears AT DA SAME TIME BY DEFINITION cuz they DIVERGE at da same time
read these
http://translate.google.com/translate... |en&tbb=1&ie=utf-8
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6fVePgcYTJc/Si-6QRE...
And did u never read this 2009 paper by barrett?
I talked with andrea cau and he says its very convincin
And
Barrett, P.M.(2009). "The affinities of the enigmatic dinosaur Eshanosaurus deguchiianus from the Early Jurassic of Yunnan Province, People's Republic of China." Palaeontology, 52(4): 681-688. doi: 10.1111/j.1475-4983.2009.00887 .x.
And how many TRIASSIC formations do u know? We know ALMOST only late cretaceous formation, so it's pretty obvious dat we dont know many triassic dinosaurs and instead we know MANY cretaceous dinosars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dinosaur...
Read dat list

[Stygimoloch]

BURNED Dude, burned. You just got burned. Burned.

[PaudieN1]

Big Al wrote:

No, i'm not crazy, but do u know da BASAL THERIZINOSAUROID ESHANOSAURUS???
Please, read with ATTENTION THIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eshanosaurus
This means dat therizinosauroids r at least 195 million years old!!!!!!!!!!
And oviraptorosauria r da sister taxon of therizinosauroidea!!! THis means dat oviraptorsaurs r AT LEAST 195 million years old!!!!!!!
And Oviraptoriformes (Therizinosauroidea+Oviraptoro sauria) is AT LEAST 200 million years old!
And da sister taxon of oviraptoriformes, Paraves (Paraves=Deinonychosauria+Avia lae) is at least 200 million years old!!!
And this means dat da yet un-named clade "oviraptoriformes+paraves " and its sister taxon (ALVAREZSAURIDAE) r at least 205 million years old! Alvarezsaurids r AT LEAST 205 ma! This means "triassic alvarezsaurids"!!!
And maniraptora (Maniraptora=Alvarezsauridae+u nnamed clade) is at least 210 million years old! And da sister taxon of maniraptora is ornithomimosauria: this means ornithomimosaurs r at least 210 million years old TOO!!!!
So maniraptoriformes (maniraptoformes=ornithomimosa uria+maniraptora) MUST BE AT LEAST 215 million YEARS OLD!!!
AND....
...
..
DO U KNOW WHO DA HELL IS DA SISTER TAXON OF MANIRAPTORIFORMES IS???? YES, IT'S TYRANNOSAUROIDEA!!!!
This means dat tyrannosauroids R AT LEAST 215 MILLION YEARS OLD!!!!!!
SO CARNOSAURS, SPINOSAUROIDS AND CERATOSAURS MUST BE EVEN OLDER....

If dinosaurs were so highly derived at this point in time, it must mean that all dinosaurs are far older than we currently estimate, right?

[Big Al]

Well, dilong IS 160 ma but OTHERS yet undiscovered basal tyrannosauroid taxa must be older. Dinosaur clades r older, not da species themselves
But this doesnt mean triassic 6 m tyrannosauroids: 2 me the yet undiscovered taxa were MUCH MORE primitive, somethin like coelophysis or eoraptor

[Big Al]

Ehm sorry, i mean "guanlong is 160 ma"
Since dilong is 130 ma

[PaudieN1]

Big Al wrote:

Well, dilong IS 160 ma but OTHERS yet undiscovered basal tyrannosauroid taxa must be older. Dinosaur clades r older, not da species themselves
But this doesnt mean triassic 6 m tyrannosauroids: 2 me the yet undiscovered taxa were MUCH MORE primitive, somethin like coelophysis or eoraptor

Yes, that is my view too.

[Sakib]

Big Al wrote:

How u dare contest me? LOL XD
Just kiddin
By da way, i see u dont know rigorous dinosaur philogeny. OviraptorOSAURIA and TherizinosaurOIDEA r sister taxa
I didnt say oviraptorIDS (oviraptorIDAE) and therizinosaurIDS (therizinosaurIDAE), i said oviraptorSAURS (oviraptorOSAURIA) and therizinosaurOIDS
Sister taxa appears AT DA SAME TIME BY DEFINITION cuz they DIVERGE at da same time
read these
http://translate.google.com/translate... |en&tbb=1&ie=utf-8
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6fVePgcYTJc/Si-6QRE...
And did u never read this 2009 paper by barrett?
I talked with andrea cau and he says its very convincin
And
Barrett, P.M.(2009). "The affinities of the enigmatic dinosaur Eshanosaurus deguchiianus from the Early Jurassic of Yunnan Province, People's Republic of China." Palaeontology, 52(4): 681-688. doi: 10.1111/j.1475-4983.2009.00887 .x.
And how many TRIASSIC formations do u know? We know ALMOST only late cretaceous formation, so it's pretty obvious dat we dont know many triassic dinosaurs and instead we know MANY cretaceous dinosars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dinosaur...
Read dat list

You're right, I know very little of advanced phylogeny.

I haven't read the paper written by Barret, seeing as I'm not closely acquainted with the palaeontological community. Nonetheless, I'd like to know what the features which set Eshanosaurus apart from prosauropods.

Also, you are correct that Triassic deposits are quite rare, but nonetheless, with that big of a gap in the fossil record, between these earlier placed clades and that of the ones we currently place in their period of time (e.g. tyrannosauroidea in the early cretaceous as opposed to whatever you said) I am not convinced. Also, if there were indeed such a diversity of clades in the early Jurassic, then there should be evidence of this in the Middle Jurassic, Late jurassic, Early Cretaceous and Late cretaceous. In fact, what was stopping these already diverse clades from forming new ones? Why didn't Tyrannosauroidea branch off again and again, in the late Jurassic instead of the early Cretaceous? I'm guessing your answer will be more, slowly evolving ghost lineages, and my reply will be to wait and see.

After I've actually researched phylogeny and built up an extremely basic knowledge of it, my POV is that: I dunno. I'm going to wait and see if more fossils can solve this mystery.

Here's a good website I found which helped me understand this topic, and what I based my POV on.

http://dinogoss.blogspot.com/2009/03/coeluros...

[Sakib]

Big Al wrote:

Well, dilong IS 160 ma but OTHERS yet undiscovered basal tyrannosauroid taxa must be older. Dinosaur clades r older, not da species themselves
But this doesnt mean triassic 6 m tyrannosauroids: 2 me the yet undiscovered taxa were MUCH MORE primitive, somethin like coelophysis or eoraptor

Then doesn't that mean we get 6m Tyrannosauroids in the Jurassic?

[Stygimoloch]

Maybe....
Maybe....

i dunno lol.

But from what I can tell, Ceolurosaurian lineages are not nearly as simple as we have thought.

[Big Al]

Sakib wrote:

<quoted text>
Then doesn't that mean we get 6m Tyrannosauroids in the Jurassic?

No... dont worry :)(but stokesosaurus is 4 m and lived in jurassic)
And did u see they just found proceratosaurus 2 be a non-tyrannosaurid tyrannosauroid?
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fu...
They even created a new family of tyrannosauroids... PROCERATOSAURIDAE!!!
And given dat proceratosaurus is 165 ma... now fossil evidence say tyrannosauroids must be at least 170 ma (if not more...)!
We r approachin 2 triassic tyrannosauroids!!