New Offtopic/Gun Thread

New Offtopic/Gun Thread

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“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#3 Jul 15, 2012
Okay, what do you want to talk about, tanks?

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#4 Jul 15, 2012
I think that the M1 Abrams and the Leopard II tank are pretty well in a tie for first place. The Merkava tank, the T-90, and the Challenger are all very close.

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#7 Jul 15, 2012
Doctor Facepalm wrote:
Well, there isn't really a best tank. I mean, they all have their goods and bads.
I mean, look, the T-34/85 and T-55 aren't very powerful by modern standards, but many countries still use them. The T-26, T-34/85, and T-55 are still used cuz they're easy to mass-produce, even if that's the only advantage over M1A2 Abrams tanks.
I mean, for every Abrams there's <<beep>>loads of T-26s, T-34/85s, T-55s, and T-72s.
Even though it is a primitive way to defeat an opponent with overwhelming numbers of old units it is still effective. Look at it, that's how the Russians won WWII. The Germans had better tanks, and they made a lot of war innovations like assault rifles, and had some of the best technology, but even though the Soviets had lesser quality weapons they had astronomical numbers of them.
Oh yeah, did U know nthat there are actually T-26s in service with poor African and Asian countries.
Also, by modern standards, the T-34 can sometimes be considered an MBT, I mean, it's got pretty balanced weaponry, speed, armor, etc. like most MBTs, except that the term didn't exist back then.
Anyways, here are some all-time enemies of war, which do U think is the better weapon?
M1903A4 Springfield vs Type 97 Sniper Rifle
M16A4 vs AKMS
M1 Garand vs SKS-45
M60E4 vs RPD
M249 SAW vs RPK
M1919A4 Browning vs MG-34
M1A1 Thompson vs PPSh-41
T-26 vs Panzer I
T-34 vs M4A4 Sherman
T-55 vs M60 Patton
T-72 vs M1A2 Abrams(Keep in mind that ease of production is also a factor)
F-4 Phantom vs Chengdu J-7 (Chinese Mig-21)
F-14 Tomcat vs MiG-29
UH-1 Huey vs Mil Mi-1 Hare
AH-1 Cobra vs Mil Mi-24 Hind
F-15 Eagle vs PAK FA
Tupolev Tu-95 vs B-52 Stratofortress
CH-47 Chinook vs Mil Mi-26 Halo
First off, it would tank an ungodly amount of T-26s and T-34s to compete with the Abrams or any of the modern counter parts of the russian tanks, and Abrams have been know to handle the T-72 with relitive ease. So say we pit the U.S.As 9,000 M1 Abrams against Russia's 10,000 T-72s and 4000 T-64s. I know my money is on the Abrams with comparively few losses. Add in an extra 2,000 T-62s and 1,200 T-55s and the Abrams still win relitvely few losses. it is only when the more modernly armoured and equipped T-90s and T-80s come about that the Abrams would come across problems.

Still though, the American's Abrams force has better trained crews, more reliable tanks, better technology, faster speed, better fire control both in motion and while stationary, and better armour, and they would probaly come out on top. Definately with the help of America's far larger and superior helicopter and jet forces.

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#8 Jul 15, 2012
Doctor Facepalm wrote:
Anyways, here are some all-time enemies of war, which do U think is the better weapon?
M1903A4 Springfield vs Type 97 Sniper Rifle
M16A4 vs AKMS
M1 Garand vs SKS-45
M60E4 vs RPD
M249 SAW vs RPK
M1919A4 Browning vs MG-34
M1A1 Thompson vs PPSh-41
T-26 vs Panzer I
T-34 vs M4A4 Sherman
T-55 vs M60 Patton
T-72 vs M1A2 Abrams(Keep in mind that ease of production is also a factor)
F-4 Phantom vs Chengdu J-7 (Chinese Mig-21)
F-14 Tomcat vs MiG-29
UH-1 Huey vs Mil Mi-1 Hare
AH-1 Cobra vs Mil Mi-24 Hind
F-15 Eagle vs PAK FA
Tupolev Tu-95 vs B-52 Stratofortress
CH-47 Chinook vs Mil Mi-26 Halo
1.) even
2.) M-16A4, light, more accurate, far reliable than the M16A1, tumbling bullets makes it just as deadly as the AKM.
3.)SKS-45 due to its larger clips and comparable accuracy.
4.)Tie, both powerful and reliable suppressive weapons.
5.) SAW, larger ammunition feed.
6.)MG-34, all around more flexible
7.)PPSh-41, larger magizine, though weaker.
8.)Panzer I
9.)T-34(close)
10.)M-60, it is often updated to a far more lethal level than the T-55
11.)Abrams, no country comes close to having a large enough T-72 fleet to compete with the U.S.'s Abrams.
12.)F-4, same reason as the M-60
13.)MiG-29
14.)Huey
15.)Hind, it simply overpowers the faster Cobra
16.)PAK, its much more modern, not to fair. F-15 is still really good.
17.)B-52
18.) Chinook is faster and more practical and flexible, Mi-26 is bigger and carries more, tie.

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#9 Jul 15, 2012
Doctor Facepalm wrote:
M2 Browning vs DShK
M4A1 vs AK-74M
M26 Lemon Grenade vs RGD-5
M18 Claymore vs POMZ-2
1.) M2
2.) M4A1
3.) RGD-5
4.)Claymore

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#13 Jul 15, 2012
US Ordnance M60E4 wrote:
<quoted text> Yes, but remember, if there's some infantry supporting those T-34s, T-26s, T-55s, T-72s, and T-90s and some infantry supporting the Abrams it is a more realistic fight. Look at it, America ususally fights enemies that aren't afraid to run in front of .50 cal machine guns so if a bunch of insurgents ran up to an Abrams with dynamite strapped to them they'd blow up the Abrams.
Oh yeah, I meant not in real life, I meant in a scenario where the crews are equally trained with their Abrams and T-whatevers. BTW, the T-26 is better off as an Armored Personnel Carrier than a tank. I wasn't talikng about a possible fight between US and some other country, I meant a made up fighting force with 100 Abrams and 1,000 T-whatevers.
But it'd be kinda funny watching god-like amount of T-34s trying to destroy Abrams by just crashing into them and disabling them. It'd work, I mean, about 25,000 T-34 were ever made so 9,000 Abrams lost and 9,00 T-34s lost and they still got plenty of T-34s so it's a good strategy.
Sacraficing huge amounts of human life like what you are saying is know way to win a war. Eventually soldier moral will break result in the breakdown and dersertion of an army, or upright revolt against the officers in charge, or if nothing else, you will run out of capable soldiers because you suffer far more losses than the enemy. No human likes to be treated like cannon fodder.

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#14 Jul 15, 2012
Doctor Facepalm wrote:
<quoted text> Well, I've read recently that the T-72s main gun is 125mm and the Abrams is 120mm. So the T-72 has a more pwerful gun, though still not enough against an Abrams.
The T-72 fires a slightly larger round, but the Abrams shoot it faster, and normally with better rounds. Not to mention the T-72 has an auto-loader prone to jamming.

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#19 Jul 15, 2012
Doctor Facepalm wrote:
<quoted text> True, but really it depends on the training of the crew. When the Abrams always pwn the T-72s it's cuz of the Iraqis poor training. If U put a highly trained US crew in a T-72 and a poorly trained Iraq crew then I believe the US crew would win. The tanks don't drive themselves, it depends on the experience of the crew.
Here's a thing: I doubt that a well-trained T-34 crew would beat a poorly-trained Abrams crew, but 2 T-34s with good crews could most certainly hold their own against an Abrams with an inexperienced crew.
The Americans still have a shot in a T-72 but once put into a T-72, they still are at a major disadvantage. Even to an Iraqi crew, which by the way, the Iraqi's had decent, not top line, but respectable tank crews.

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#20 Jul 15, 2012
Doctor Facepalm wrote:
<quoted text> Yeah, but look, there are people commit suicide in ways like that, and I do believe some would volunteer. And when the tanks would crash the thick armor would protect the crews so most likely they wouldn't die but the crash woud still disable the Abrams. With the running towards a tank thing, that's what some Japanese did during WWII. They strapped grenades to themselves and disabled quite a few tanks. I'm not saying to Dewit in large numbers, but I assure you, for the enemies that fight America it wouldn't be a strange sight to see that happening. Not huge amounts though.
Well, Russia holds their soldiers above sucidial bombers, as does even China. Only terrorist organizations have suicide bomber soldiers, and these organizations don't have nearly as many men as a full sized country can provide. Besides, grenades aren't powerful enough to disable modern tanks like the M1 Abrams, hell the Abrams can absorb RPG shots and deflect shots from the T-26 and T-34 with little problems.

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#24 Jul 16, 2012
Doctor Facepalm wrote:
Anyways, we got this settled, here's somethin', by + I mean in power. Both crews are experienced.
1 T-72 = Abrams
2 T-55s = Abrams
3 T-34s = Abrams
1 T-90 = Abrams
With the proper experience and training, a T-72 is about equal to an Abrams. The reasons why the Ts always lose is cuz of:
1. Inferior training compared to the US crews.
2. Being outnumbered by sheer numbers.
The T-72 has its advantages like a bigger main gun, slightly faster speed, and a more powerful machine gun:
M2 < DShK or NSV
I'm not being biased towards T-34s, T-55s, and T-72s, I'm just saying it's true, the T-34 can still compete with modern tanks. Case settled.
Even with equal crews the T-72 and even the T-90s don't quite measure up to the Abrams one on one. T-90 and T-72s have less stable firing platforms, the turrets turn slower, which means both slower and less accurate aiming generally. The Abrams fires better rounds, while not as big, plus the Abrams almost never jams, which is a problem for them T-72s surprisingly big, and even the T-90 to an extent.

Also, 3 T-34 can't hold up due to signifigantly weaker armour and firepower, along with slower speed and even less accuracy and mobility than the T-72s and T-90s. Same goes for the T-55s, except it is more competable on a firepower and armor scale, though still lacking signifgantly.

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#26 Jul 17, 2012
The Type-10 and Type 90 of Japan are some of the most technologically advanced tanks out there. They also have pretty good battle armour and a main cannon comparable to the Abrams in power and advancements and it has a relatively stable gun platform.

The Chinese Type-99 is China's most advanced MBT, and is slightly faster, it sport the 125mm cannon which is bigger, but generally doesn't have the round flexiblity of the 120mm used by the Type-10 and Type-90. The autoloader is likely based off Soviet designs and therefore more likely to jam or malfunction than the Type-10, as well as having a less stable gun platform.
Mattking

Winnipeg, Canada

#27 Jul 17, 2012
Troodon8888 wrote:
<quoted text>
Even with equal crews the T-72 and even the T-90s don't quite measure up to the Abrams one on one. T-90 and T-72s have less stable firing platforms, the turrets turn slower, which means both slower and less accurate aiming generally. The Abrams fires better rounds, while not as big, plus the Abrams almost never jams, which is a problem for them T-72s surprisingly big, and even the T-90 to an extent.
Also, 3 T-34 can't hold up due to signifigantly weaker armour and firepower, along with slower speed and even less accuracy and mobility than the T-72s and T-90s. Same goes for the T-55s, except it is more competable on a firepower and armor scale, though still lacking signifgantly.
Besides all those disadvantages, some have argued the T-90 would have the advantage against the Abrams because the T-90 can fire Refleks missiles out of the cannon were as the abrams does not have any cannon launched missiles as standarded issue. Also the T-90 with its Shtora APS is immune to missiles.
Here is a Russian propaganda video...
(English subtitles)
I would personally favor the Abrams against the T-90 on conventional terms (No missiles allowed); however, it could go the other way around if the Russian tank uses missiles.
Here is some tank states...
http://collinsj.tripod.com/protect.htm/

Since: Feb 11

Winnipeg, Canada

#28 Jul 17, 2012
Troodon8888 wrote:
<quoted text>
Even with equal crews the T-72 and even the T-90s don't quite measure up to the Abrams one on one. T-90 and T-72s have less stable firing platforms, the turrets turn slower, which means both slower and less accurate aiming generally. The Abrams fires better rounds, while not as big, plus the Abrams almost never jams, which is a problem for them T-72s surprisingly big, and even the T-90 to an extent.
Also, 3 T-34 can't hold up due to signifigantly weaker armour and firepower, along with slower speed and even less accuracy and mobility than the T-72s and T-90s. Same goes for the T-55s, except it is more competable on a firepower and armor scale, though still lacking signifgantly.
Besides all those disadvantages, some have argued the T-90 would have the advantage against the Abrams because the T-90 can fire Refleks missiles out of the cannon were as the abrams does not have any cannon launched missiles as standarded issue. Also the T-90 with its Shtora APS is immune to missiles.
Here is a Russian propaganda video...
(English subtitles)
I would personally favor the Abrams against the T-90 on conventional terms (No missiles allowed); however, it could go the other way around if the Russian tank uses missiles.
Here is some tank states...
http://collinsj.tripod.com/protect.htm/

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#29 Jul 17, 2012
How do they load, because if I am not mistaken, they need manual loading which is far more dangerous on a tank like the T-90.

Anyway, the missiles gve the T-90s an advantage in an open range, but loses its efectiveness in tighter, urban combat.

Another use for the T-90s misile capability is its anti-aircraft uses, which is a major interest to the Russians who are starting to fall behind in the air-power race.

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#30 Jul 17, 2012
Doctor Facepalm wrote:
<quoted text> And I'd probably say a tie with the F-4 vs J7 cuz I forgot to tell U that the Chengdu was a modern version of the MiG-29 so I'd say only about a slight edge to F-4.
Um, the J-7 is if anything a variant of the MiG-21, not the MiG-29.

Since: Feb 11

Winnipeg, Canada

#34 Jul 17, 2012
Here is a video of a T-80's autoloader. The T-72 had problems with its autoloader but it was improved in the T-80 and onward.

Since: Feb 11

Winnipeg, Canada

#38 Jul 17, 2012
Doctor Facepalm wrote:
Yeah yeah, I already knew about the T-80s improved autoloader.
P: No offense.
I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to troodon8888

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#40 Jul 17, 2012
Mattking rex wrote:
Here is a video of a T-80's autoloader. The T-72 had problems with its autoloader but it was improved in the T-80 and onward.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =9JV7jN925sYXX
Much improved yes, but still autoloaders are yet to because as reliable as manual loaders.

“Yours truly....”

Since: May 11

Perryville, Missouri

#41 Jul 17, 2012
Also, what do you guys think are the best:

Fighter Jets

Attack helicopters/gunships

transport helicopters

and naval force(excluding the U.S. navy)
Doctor Facepalm

Lake Forest, CA

#43 Jul 19, 2012
Troodon8888 wrote:
Also, what do you guys think are the best:
Fighter Jets
Attack helicopters/gunships
transport helicopters
and naval force(excluding the U.S. navy)
All are good for what they do.

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