Intelligent Design: Coming To A State Legislature Near You

[Katydid]

Gotta go, I have a hot dinner date tonight. Everyone have a great weekend.

[Primewonk]

MichiganGEL wrote:

<quoted text>
Question to all here discussing sleep:
Has anyone ever studied the place of sleep in the evolutionary scheme of things?
It would seem obvious that an organism is most vulnerable while asleep. So how did it not reduce its chances of survival?
Yes, we know sleep is necessary to repair the body, but has that always been the case? Do microorganisms have to sleep or is it a function of complexity?
[I think I've talked myself into doing a bit of Googling, but maybe someone can suggest a reference?]
I was fascinated to learn that (some?) birds can sleep half their brain at a time. They've been observed perching side-by-side, each sleeping the vulnerable half of their brains while keeping watch with the other. After awhile they switch positions and sleep the other half!!
So much time "wasted" in sleep... Too bad we can pull the bird trick!

We THINK (no theory) that sleep evolved for different reasons. We know that all animals sleep, but vastly different types of sleep and amounts. Plants can have periods of circadian activity as can cells.

Some animal species may sleep only 2 or 3 hours per 24, while others may sleep for 20+ hours. Timing of sleep also varies. One train of thought is that sleep was a method to keep us quiet while the big predators were hunting. One school of thought is that sleep reduces metabolic expenditures, allowing conservation of energy. Now we know that sleep is intrinsic to learning and memory. That's why when I lecture in high schools or colleges I try and force the point that pulling an all nighter is actually the worse possible thing you can do to get ready for a big test.

Different animals get different types of sleep as well. Most mammals have REM sleep, or dream sleep. The jury is still out on cetacean REM sleep. Cetaceans - dolphins, wales, etc.- have hemispheric sleep. One side of the brain is awake while the other is asleep. Otherwise they'd drown! REM sleep results (in all the species we've studied so far) in striated muscle paralysis. This is so you don't "act out" your dreams. If cetaceans had REM sleep, again they'd drown. The problem is that so far, in other species, if we deprive them of REM sleep, they first go crazy, then they die. Now someone is proposing that cetaceans may have very (very) brief REM activity. There's a couple interesting video's I've seen showing dolphins suddenly assuming a comma shape, hanging in the water, and then a few seconds later start moving again.

We know that some cells have circadian patterns, and that it's transferable. If we take a rat or lawyer (sorry Zeke) and ablate the SCN the animal will sleep for a couple minutes, be awake for a couple minutes, sleep a couple minutes, etc. Then if you harvest some SCN from another rat and insert the cells into the other rat's brain, it will pick up the same rhythm.

[Kong_]

Easter Bunny wrote:

<quoted text>
If men carried, abortion would be a sacrament.

As a guy, I cant get pregnant.

But I AM a carrier!

[MichiganGEL]

LWsciencejunkie wrote:

<quoted text>
I don't think you read one damn word of anyone else's posts. Much of what you mentioned above has, in fact, been discussed. There is no point to responding to you because you simply don't register anything that does not stroke your god gene.

Sorry... With my slow dial-up (and frequent drop-out ISP) it's difficult for me to keep up with all the posts. So I may have missed the explanation as to how sleep evolved. I thought you were just discussing more personal sleep issues: shifted circadian rhythms, insomnia, etc.

[MichiganGEL]

Primewonk wrote:

<quoted text>
We THINK (no theory) that sleep evolved for different reasons. We know that all animals sleep, but vastly different types of sleep and amounts. Plants can have periods of circadian activity as can cells.
Some animal species may sleep only 2 or 3 hours per 24, while others may sleep for 20+ hours. Timing of sleep also varies. One train of thought is that sleep was a method to keep us quiet while the big predators were hunting. One school of thought is that sleep reduces metabolic expenditures, allowing conservation of energy. Now we know that sleep is intrinsic to learning and memory. That's why when I lecture in high schools or colleges I try and force the point that pulling an all nighter is actually the worse possible thing you can do to get ready for a big test.
Different animals get different types of sleep as well. Most mammals have REM sleep, or dream sleep. The jury is still out on cetacean REM sleep. Cetaceans - dolphins, wales, etc.- have hemispheric sleep. One side of the brain is awake while the other is asleep. Otherwise they'd drown! REM sleep results (in all the species we've studied so far) in striated muscle paralysis. This is so you don't "act out" your dreams. If cetaceans had REM sleep, again they'd drown. The problem is that so far, in other species, if we deprive them of REM sleep, they first go crazy, then they die. Now someone is proposing that cetaceans may have very (very) brief REM activity. There's a couple interesting video's I've seen showing dolphins suddenly assuming a comma shape, hanging in the water, and then a few seconds later start moving again.
We know that some cells have circadian patterns, and that it's transferable. If we take a rat or lawyer (sorry Zeke) and ablate the SCN the animal will sleep for a couple minutes, be awake for a couple minutes, sleep a couple minutes, etc. Then if you harvest some SCN from another rat and insert the cells into the other rat's brain, it will pick up the same rhythm.

Excellent info... Thanks! And especially thank you for repeating it all for me... LW reprimanded me for not seeing it in the earlier posts ;-(
So we have a lot of information *about* sleep, but not any (many?) ideas as to how it evolved?
Keeping us quiet when predators are on the prowl makes some sense, but one could "learn" pretty quickly to freeze like a fawn (or climb trees) in that case.
I wonder, if we had daylight 24/7, would sleep have ever evolved?
Perhaps hibernation came first? I like the Andean hummingbird that basically hibernates each night to survive the freezing temps as well as to preserve its store of energy.
Now circadian rhythm in cells?!?... Why??? That's amazing!...

[C Hamilton]

Primewonk wrote:

<quoted text>
Damn! I can see why LW swoons over you. I'm a straight guy, and I think I'd date you! Very well stated and eloquent. Thanks for keeping it simple for us laymen!

Ok, as PM's live-in girlfriend I can tell you that I have no problem with his crush on LW. HOWEVER, I draw the line at him starting relationships with other men. Sorry 'bout that. I'm just not that kinky. LMAO!!!

[Cvvl]

polymath257 wrote:

<quoted text>
You seem to think that the Big Bang is some hair-brained concept that people came up with to avoid the idea of a creator. That is very far from the truth. First of all, the basic theory is the theory of general relativity, which is Einstein's description for gravity
<.....>
identical, to what happens at the north pole of the earth with latitude lines. If I asked you what is north of the north pole, you would say that it is impossible; that the north pole is as far north as you can go. In a similar way, the instant of the Big Bang is as far backwards in time as you can go. There is no cause because there is no previous time. There is no 'something from nothing' because the conservation laws ALL describe comparisons between different TIMES.

Now I see why LW has a crush on you.

[Cvvl]

Primewonk wrote:

<quoted text>
Damn! I can see why LW swoons over you. I'm a straight guy, and I think I'd date you! Very well stated and eloquent. Thanks for keeping it simple for us laymen!

ROFL!! Especially in light of my most recent post.

[Cvvl]

Katydid wrote:

Gotta go, I have a hot dinner date tonight. Everyone have a great weekend.

Oooooh. So you've moved past those first clumsy dates where he takes you out for a cold dinner. Hubba hubba. Have fun.

[Steve]

StopTheInsanity wrote:

<quoted text>
What made you think I had finished my research? Don't worry, your persona (and others like yours) will merit mention in my article (or book if I get that far) for the utter worthlessness you bring to a discussion while monopolizing time and attention. Seriously.

Will you also discuss the cruelty of the Anonymous Coward? I'm sure you've noticed that it's much easier to be a jerk when nobody knows who you are.

[The Dude]

So nobody still has come up with a testable scientific "theory" for ID yet? No?

Shocked I say. Shocked.

[Primewonk]

C Hamilton wrote:

<quoted text>Ok, as PM's live-in girlfriend I can tell you that I have no problem with his crush on LW. HOWEVER, I draw the line at him starting relationships with other men. Sorry 'bout that. I'm just not that kinky. LMAO!!!

No problem! My gay friends call me "hopelessly hetero". Apparently I dress way to tacky to be a gay guy. They did make some allusions to me dressing like a bad lesbian - if that helps.

[Primewonk]

The Dude wrote:

So nobody still has come up with a testable scientific "theory" for ID yet? No?
Shocked I say. Shocked.

Yeah, we've been killing time talking about sleep, crushes, and skanky shirts. It's better than those damn chirping crickets I've been hearing for years.

[Primewonk]

MichiganGEL wrote:

<quoted text>
Excellent info... Thanks! And especially thank you for repeating it all for me... LW reprimanded me for not seeing it in the earlier posts ;-(
So we have a lot of information *about* sleep, but not any (many?) ideas as to how it evolved?
Keeping us quiet when predators are on the prowl makes some sense, but one could "learn" pretty quickly to freeze like a fawn (or climb trees) in that case.
I wonder, if we had daylight 24/7, would sleep have ever evolved?
Perhaps hibernation came first? I like the Andean hummingbird that basically hibernates each night to survive the freezing temps as well as to preserve its store of energy.
Now circadian rhythm in cells?!?... Why??? That's amazing!...

And even stranger, at least in cats, if one is in Slow Wave Sleep we can sample the CSF and isolate a Delta Sleep Inducing Peptide. Place that peptide into the CSF of another cat and it will go into SWS.

[Tinka]

MichiganGEL wrote:

<quoted text>
Question to all here discussing sleep:
Has anyone ever studied the place of sleep in the evolutionary scheme of things?
It would seem obvious that an organism is most vulnerable while asleep. So how did it not reduce its chances of survival?
Yes, we know sleep is necessary to repair the body, but has that always been the case? Do microorganisms have to sleep or is it a function of complexity?
[I think I've talked myself into doing a bit of Googling, but maybe someone can suggest a reference?]
I was fascinated to learn that (some?) birds can sleep half their brain at a time. They've been observed perching side-by-side, each sleeping the vulnerable half of their brains while keeping watch with the other. After awhile they switch positions and sleep the other half!!
So much time "wasted" in sleep... Too bad we can pull the bird trick!

Well maybe if we were sleeping on brenches we slept less, maybe that would be a start.
All I know, many times when I sleep too much I am way more tired if I had only slept a little bit..

[Tinka]

Well, I am ashamed to say I actually already took two naps today..
But it's major hot here and the cooler isn't working...

Anyways...during my second nap's slow wake up..I was thinking...No matter what will be discovered..,how much knowledge is put out on the table...There will always be one that is going to be smarter...

Think about that...

[Tinka]

I do believe in a higher power...and I am sure that we all play a role in all of it..
I can't shed away from this..
I believe I am really clinging to wanting to see an answer for all of it..existence...
I want to be part of the whole spiel..

[Tinka]

LWsciencejunkie wrote:

<quoted text>
Bleah. If there is a Supreme Being, it does not live up to my own moral and ethical standards. The hell with it.

I know I have said so many times myself..because of all the anguish in this world...
But even though through science and medicine and all..I think we aren't or rather scientists aren't smart ENOUGH...to find all the asnwers..

For I am sure there are millions of questions that can't be answered...and I think without the knowledge of the one *BEING* that has all knowledge...which I am sure it exists we can't move ahead all that much further...

So I don't care what it's called..Supreme being...Creater...I think Higher power might just be that a power a force conducted by a believe...just like I believe if all people would put forth peace...the energy, it could happen...

believe, The Bravery
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

[Tinka]

So, therefore to post #5118 I refuse to let my soul grow old...It's not going to happen...
One thing I must say for some posters...on topix..they sure are trying to suck the life out of some people..

I mean as much as some try you would think they can store the enrgy from pushing people into some state of utterly frustration..

It's truly as they are seeking gain..

If I look at the internet is has become a great tool indeedy..

Too bad not everyone in the world is outfitted with it..

Well I see no one's around...so..I am going to have to head out in a bit anyways...

[Easter Bunny]

MichiganGEL wrote:

<quoted text>
I've decided that it's "much ado about nothing."
Time and time again you and others have said here that ID has no mechanism or reaearch to demonstrate. If you are really convinced of that then the amount of time that could be devoted to ID in a science class should be maybe ten minutes?
Just enough time to let the students know that evolution does not explain everything - especially abiogenesis. The student may believe that an Intelligent Designer or Creator got things started, but this class will focus on facts that can be observed in the field or lab... That will be more than enough to keep you busy!

From a strictly logical perspective, what you say makes sense. So to me, the next issue worth pondering is how much to we think that logic will dictate how this goes, and why.