Intelligent Design: Coming To A State Legislature Near You

[LWsciencejunkie]

over-eazy-under-pressure wrote:

Intelligent Design:
http://www.loadedtruck.com/truckpics/truck9.j...

Oh, just...wow! WHAT? Who cares about the price of gas? Is this devolution or "appropriate technology"?
Whatever it is, I want one! The "Bovinator"? Does the driver "STEER" from where he sits in the cab? How does he honk the "HORNS"? How fast does it "MOOV"?
Thanks!

[Primewonk]

Zeke wrote:

<quoted text>
Cool. I've suffered from an intractable case of delayed circadian rhythm disorder since high school. I'm constantly battling a body clock that aggressively resets itself to sleep between 6AM and 2PM. I get tired (pardon the bad pun) of being thought of as a lazybones, when I'm more productive at 3AM than many are at 3PM.
It's the main reason I've always been either self-employed or in school--where I can arrange to have the bulk of my classes in the afternoons. Drugs either don't work or the side effects are worse than the problem; light therapies have failed; and now my hopes are pinned on a treatment arising from some new research into cAMP that I've been reading about in Nature.

Oh man I'm sorry. Do either of your parents have Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome? Have they ever run an DLMO assay -(Dim Light Melatonin Onset), or taken an MRI of your Pineal gland area?

[hexene]

Been away and this Amazed character is truly comical......Where is the science for ID?

[adrian]

MichiganGEL wrote:

<quoted text>
I've run this up the flagpole more than a few times, but here's a testable ID theory:
Given the fact that life seemed to appear almost as soon as it feasible, Gerald Schroeder posits something similar to panspermia, except he goes so far as to say that *all* the genetic information needed to produce all the subsequent basic life forms (as conditions warranted) was included in that first life form. He calls this the "Latent Library" theory.
Now, unless that initial life form has lost that genetic information over the years, it should still be detectable. If it's not there... Scratch the LL hypothesis.

If there were any truth to this theory I'm sure they could find it easily at least compared to proof for spontaneous abiogenesis. There is no such thing but they just love to throw crazy ideas out there, and they call us crazy. Panspermia is already a rather weak hypothesis in the first place I think, without adding the wishful thinking of latent library, but I admit it might be possible just for the record.
Origins is just one big guess and they say that there is no way there could be some higher power that might possess the ability to explain or understand existence.

[LWsciencejunkie]

adrian wrote:

I can't think of another word at the moment that has the wa sound as in wap (not wop, but wap, like wap on the head). Help me out here it is very relevent to evolution, or not, but I'll try to connect it. How did Easter Bunny say it? I'll create my own truth using the wa word.

wa not?

[hexene]

TedHOhio wrote:

<quoted text>
The Discovery Institute funded their own lab, called the Biologic Institute. The first director was fired because he associated the 'Institute' to closely with the DI. The Di is trying to keep their distance because they are afraid no one would take it seriously, however they are still the only ones funding it. It's stated mission is to prove Intelligent Design. 4 years and no original research. What a shock!

You think that the lab needs only my old trusty slide rule to kick-start their anticipated and ground breaking research?

[shinningelectr0n]

Primewonk wrote:

<quoted text>
No. The science folks live on questions. But, those questions HAVE to based in science. Not religious mythology. I believe there are whole groups of religious boards for those questions.
Being brutally honest here, but I see you guys in the same light as those who deny global warming based on religious reasons. I see you in the same light as the quacks who proclaim 9/11 was an inside job - look no one one the planet hates this pResident more than me - and even I don't think he masterminded this. I see you guys in the same light as the religious homophobic bigots who try and deny equal rights to all - by the way - Way to go California!

I have already posted my views on ID, Creationism and Christianity or religion in general being sources for scientific guidance in discovery.

I have also complained about trolls being dressed in lab coats. So, here you are (another one!) labeling me as one of "you guys". You even toss in a "homophobic" jab, too, and specifically as to California. You guys are lifelong residents of the pool's shallow end. You have agendas. You just confirmed it for the Nth time here on TOPIX.

I rest my case.

[LWsciencejunkie]

hexene wrote:

Been away and this Amazed character is truly comical......Where is the science for ID?

Up his fundy arse and around the corner...going to bed now. Good night!

[Primewonk]

Easter Bunny wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, if you're like most people who go through "free running" sleep research, then you're not on a 24-hour clock. Myself, I found that when I just free-ran because my schedule permitted it, I tended to go to bed 1 hour later each night. This would make sense if I was on the 25-hour clock that many people are on. To fit into our scheduled world, this means you have to go wake up "sleep short" every morning to have any chance of falling asleep at the same time each night. Not pretty.
For you, I'd recommend a house on Maui, and maybe one in the Seychelles, and then Rome and of course in the USA. In this way, you could chase the Sun once each week (maybe on, um, Sunday) and spend a week in each location. Just let me know if you need anybody to carry your luggage.

HEY! I'm the Sleep Guy here! If Zeke takes anyone it should be me. Of course if it was up to me, I'd put him in a dim light cave for a couple weeks, let him free run, then run a couple assay's on him and see what his tau really is. Damn, I'm starting to smell a paper coming out of this!

[adrian]

TedHOhio wrote:

<quoted text>
The Discovery Institute funded their own lab, called the Biologic Institute. The first director was fired because he associated the 'Institute' to closely with the DI. The Di is trying to keep their distance because they are afraid no one would take it seriously, however they are still the only ones funding it. It's stated mission is to prove Intelligent Design. 4 years and no original research. What a shock!

If that's true then they are a bunch of retards for even starting it under the premise that they need to do original research, it is the SAME science with more accurate interpretations. Maybe it is premature to introduce ID, we have to wait til they get there head on straight, and until there is more failed "spontaneous" experiments. ID is a possible interpretation no matter what you eggheads say, we must not be evolved enough to handle it. And you know, no matter if they introduce this as a theory or not, the more time that goes by without a discovery or proof of random abiogenesis and macroevolution, the more this theory will become "common logic".

[Easter Bunny]

adrian wrote:

<quoted text>How can you be so sure there is no higher power? SCience does not disprove it, you guys have said it so many times. I'm not saying evolution did not happen, I'm saying it might have happened, but not spontaneously. Tell me how we can determine whether or not it is spontaneous for sure? So far abiogenesis is not proven to be spontaneous. Tell me how this universe can exist by accident? When we have so few answers it is silly to assume there is no possibility of a higher power.
I'm not creating truth, I am trying to get you to admit the possibilities. You can't be sure life and the universe are spontaneous, and explainable yet. We are nowhere close to making a call on that

Science doesn't need to be "sure of" things before it can offer useful assistance.

But any time somebody mentions the "not disproven" thing, it discredits them. Nothing makes this more clear than the fact that neither I nor you can disprove the Flying Spaghetti Monster god.

http://www.venganza.org

By your reasoning, we should listen to demands that we research the possibility that His Noodly Greatness is the creator of all things. But in fact, nobody really argues that just because he hasn't been disproven we must all accept that he might be the real deal. So, let's be consistent and NOT argue that we must treat all not-disproven hypothesis as of equal merit.

Then you again delve into claiming that some non-ID ideas don't make sense to you. Even if they don't make sense to anybody, that is not evidence for ID. Stunning thing is that I've had to write that same line in a hundred different messages on this thread already, but ID people just don't get it.

Our lack of knowledge does neither of the two things you suggest. That is, it does not mean that a deity-based answer is thereby more plausible, and it doesn't mean we're closed-minded to continue to apply the scientific method to screen-out hypothesis that are insincere science because their conflict of interest makes them impossible to utilize in a constructive manner.

[chipfle]

adrian wrote:

<quoted text> If there were any truth to this theory I'm sure they could find it easily at least compared to proof for spontaneous abiogenesis. There is no such thing but they just love to throw crazy ideas out there, and they call us crazy. Panspermia is already a rather weak hypothesis in the first place I think, without adding the wishful thinking of latent library, but I admit it might be possible just for the record.
Origins is just one big guess and they say that there is no way there could be some higher power that might possess the ability to explain or understand existence.

Abiogenisis: Not an evolutionary process until replication occurs
(Billions of complex organic molecules/cubic meter)
*(Billions of cubic meters)
*(Billions of different environments)
*(Billions of Joules of energy)
*(Billions of different energy forms (wavelengths, heat, discharges, etc))
*(Billions of years)
*(Billions of semi terrestrial planets in the universe)->
One molecule sort of self replicates, evolution is off and running.
Any improbable event becomes a certainty when number of opportunities approaches the quantified improbability.

[chipfle]

adrian wrote:

<quoted text>If that's true then they are a bunch of retards for even starting it under the premise that they need to do original research, it is the SAME science with more accurate interpretations. Maybe it is premature to introduce ID, we have to wait til they get there head on straight, and until there is more failed "spontaneous" experiments. ID is a possible interpretation no matter what you eggheads say, we must not be evolved enough to handle it. And you know, no matter if they introduce this as a theory or not, the more time that goes by without a discovery or proof of random abiogenesis and macroevolution, the more this theory will become "common logic".

OK .....- does anybody else see a spiral into incoherent irrationality?

[Easter Bunny]

adrian wrote:

<quoted text> If there were any truth to this theory I'm sure they could find it easily at least compared to proof for spontaneous abiogenesis. There is no such thing but they just love to throw crazy ideas out there, and they call us crazy. Panspermia is already a rather weak hypothesis in the first place I think, without adding the wishful thinking of latent library, but I admit it might be possible just for the record.
Origins is just one big guess and they say that there is no way there could be some higher power that might possess the ability to explain or understand existence.

You remind me of the Muslims who cannot endorse Islam without exploiting holes in Christianity. Can you even make a CLAIM about ID without comparing it to scientific theories?

[Easter Bunny]

shinningelectr0n wrote:

<quoted text>
I have already posted my views on ID, Creationism and Christianity or religion in general being sources for scientific guidance in discovery.
I have also complained about trolls being dressed in lab coats. So, here you are (another one!) labeling me as one of "you guys". You even toss in a "homophobic" jab, too, and specifically as to California. You guys are lifelong residents of the pool's shallow end. You have agendas. You just confirmed it for the Nth time here on TOPIX.
I rest my case.

You may be through with the case, but the case aint through with you.

[Primewonk]

Cvvl wrote:

<quoted text>
Can you tell me how to get my wife to stop snoring?

Snoring is always a sign of an unstable upper airway. Sometimes it is just benign snoring, sometimes it is an indication of sleep apnea. If she snores, then pauses, then snorts, it's usually sleep apnea. If she is excessively tired during day (falls asleep watching TV, reading, etc., and has comorbid conditions like heart disease, esophageal reflux, diabetes, hypertension, etc., it's usually a slam dunk diagnosis.

Even benign snoring will cause disruptions in her sleep as well as yours.

Unfortunately, our data shows that primary care docs rarely ask patients sleep specific questions. It is usually up to patients to push their primary care doc for a sleep evaluation. Sorry I can't give specific advise.

[Primewonk]

John wrote:

<quoted text>
Where can laypersons and scientists respectfully ask questions and receive intelligent answers from each other? I am tired of reading through the flames and insults to get to people like Zeke, Fossil Bob and Primewonk.

It would be nice if there was an ignore button that would add a users ID to filter out any messages from that poster.

[Easter Bunny]

adrian wrote:

I can't think of another word at the moment that has the wa sound as in wap (not wop, but wap, like wap on the head). Help me out here it is very relevent to evolution, or not, but I'll try to connect it. How did Easter Bunny say it? I'll create my own truth using the wa word.

I wish I could figure out what you're driving at here. I mean, even if I'm walking into a joke at my expense, it would still be worth the fun.

Not being much of what you'd call an "evolutionist", I don't really have the vocabulary so I'm wondering how it could have been a word that I used.

Let's see, equivocation almost has a "wa" sound in it. WTF has it. Hmmm, false-dilemma... no. Wrath, no not really. Projection, no. OH! OH! OH! I think I've got it: Squat! As in, I don't know squat about evolution, but lucky for me, I also don't care squat about it, and even better, my ability to see the fraud of ID doesn't require either one.

(C'mon, ya had to know that's where I was going.)

[Easter Bunny]

Primewonk wrote:

<quoted text>
HEY! I'm the Sleep Guy here! If Zeke takes anyone it should be me. Of course if it was up to me, I'd put him in a dim light cave for a couple weeks, let him free run, then run a couple assay's on him and see what his tau really is. Damn, I'm starting to smell a paper coming out of this!

If he has enough luggage, maybe we both can go.

The cave thing is good. When I moved to NM in 85, there was some research going in in the Carlsbad Caverns area where in some French woman got really livid when she was told they were bringing her up. Of course, she had no way to tell the time so she was free-running. According to her journals, she was on such longer days that she mistakenly beleived the research team was bringing her out before completion, for some reason she wasn't being told. In fact, she had been down there for the targeted period (something like 80 days, I think). Being a bad sleeper since forever, I was paying attention to this an everything else I stumbled on about sleep. Sadly, most of what I saw consisted of the platitudes that don't work for people like us.

[Katydid]

John wrote:

<quoted text>
Thanks. You have saved another poor soul from a life of foolish pleasure.

Touché poor soul, but reading is one of life’s pleasures and knowledge IS power.

Some of us are very passionate about the need to keep ID/Creationism out of the classroom and to teach people exactly WHY evolutionary biology is so important.

Those that insist that Creationism or Intelligent Design is science and should be taught in schools or given “equal time’ with teaching biological evolution to our high school honors and AP bio students impede the development of budding scientists. Scientists that may one day save their very lives.

We are now using evolutionary biology to test cancerous cells and decide if chemo is warranted. IF it is even warranted, the genetic assay of the cell is studied to decide on chemosensitivity or resistance. This is the direct result of the field of evolutionary biology.

Cancer occurs when your cells lose the molecular mechanisms that control their growth and their death, known as apoptosis, resulting in uncontrolled cell growth. Genes encoded in the DNA of the cell control these mechanisms and the acquired mutations in these genes lead to this loss of control. Cancer is a genetic disease. But, and this is a huge but, each individual’s cancer is different. Your prostate cancer will not be the same as your neighbor’s. Your cancers will be as different as you are, different mutations, different influences.

Because of this difference, known in my world as heterogeneity, chemotherapy is not, despite what your local oncologist might say, a one type fits all treatment. Because of this variability between patients and the mutations involved, a cancerous cell is able to further mutate resistance to the chemo agents involved, and further courses of the same chemo will not control tumor growth and the patient dies.

BUT BECAUSE OF EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY, we have been able to develop cell culture assays of individual patient cells that have contributed to the molecular understanding of chemosensitivity and resistance. We can identify gene expression patterns that correlate with clinical drug resistance. If you live in Timbuktu and see Joe Oncologist and he gives you the same chemo regime that he gives to every other one of his colon, or prostate, or breast cancer patients, there is a good chance that your particular cancerous cells will evolve resistance.

BECAUSE OF EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY scientists have the knowledge to expose cells to drugs and develop a cell culture drug resistance assay (MTT) to determine sensitivity and resistance.

No matter what your religious beliefs, you and all other Creationists/ID’ers need to understand that if you employ the benefits of evolutionary biology while pursuing the best course of cancer treatment for you or a loved one, you have increased your chances of surviving. IF and only if you make sure that your cell culture assays are done to allow
for the identification of the gene expression patterns that correlate with drug resistance in your particular type of cancer.

EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY WILL SAVE YOUR LIFE IF YOU LET IT.

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!