Who Is Allah?

Who Is Allah?

There are 256617 comments on the The Brussels Journal story from Aug 24, 2007, titled Who Is Allah?. In it, The Brussels Journal reports that:

“Allah is a very beautiful word for God. Shouldn't we all say that from now on we will name God Allah? [...] What does God care what we call him?”

From the desk of Soeren Kern on Fri, 2007-08-24 11:56 Europeans love to mock the salience of religion in American society. via The Brussels Journal

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Brussels Journal.

HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#192219 Oct 15, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
Hugh,
Would you like to donate a tenth of your huge bronze balls to dear breastless Maat who can formulate that into female balls?
(wink wink wink)
Being a loving person and one who cares about the physical and psychological well-being of others , I would have no objection to giving Maat my 2 BIG BRASS BALLS.
Seeker

Lowell, MA

#192220 Oct 15, 2013
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
For the latter part of your question i suggest judaism 101.
Why don't you just tell me exactly what was incorrect about what I quoted and substantiate it? So far, you seem to be the person who doesn't often substantiate things. 70,000 discrepancies? That would probably be one discrepancy every paragraph or even more. That's a pretty tall order to prove. But there is nothing to prove because you pulled that figure out of your azz.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#192221 Oct 15, 2013
Seeker, do you have a job or are you living on government handouts? You're here 24/7 posting polemics...
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#192222 Oct 15, 2013
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
ONE ball will be enough to wipe the floor with you.
Best be quick on your feet.
TWO balls would leave you without feet.
;]
As the host i would ofcourse graciously offer you a cold footbath.
Maat---Having A ball here:

HughBe--- I'm proud of you, Maat. Why have A ball when you can have TWO ?

Maat--ONE ball will be enough to wipe the floor with you.

HughBe-- I was unaware that you could sense the SHEER power and size from such a great distance. So yes it is that BIG.

Maat---Best be quick on your feet.

HughBe--- I believe that there is a time and place for quickies. I was hoping for a marathon but if you want the quickie that is ok with me.

Maat---TWO balls would leave you without feet.;]

HughBe--- I have 3 feet. The balls bounces on them and makes an inviting sound in the same way that some birds use their feathers to attract the opposite sex. Clearly you are able to pick up on these high frequency sounds. It means that you are being called.

Maat---As the host i would of course graciously offer you a cold footbath.

HughBe--- I know that as a good hostess you would use the very best thing that you have to give my "foot" a bath. Some may call it a tongue bath but I prefer to call it a "foot" bath.
Seeker

Lowell, MA

#192223 Oct 15, 2013
MAAT wrote:
http://www.academia.edu/821958 /Assessing_the_Text-Critical_T heories_of_the_Hebrew_Bible_Af ter_Qumran
Why did you not open this text?
It's just a few bits from the Qumran scrolls.
4Q exodus compared with the septuagint LXX a.o.
Page after page of differences.
One of the texts it compares this with is the The Masoretic Text which is the authoritative Hebrew text of the Jewish Bible. The MT was primarily copied, edited and distributed by a group of Jews known as the Masoretes between the 7th and 10th centuries CE. So what is your real point? that the Jews fabricated the Tanakh as well?
MAAT wrote:
wiki codex vaticanus and codex sinaiticus.
I have. There are a few differences. Where is this 70,000 figure ever going to come from?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#192224 Oct 15, 2013
Back in about 1 hour.
Seeker

Lowell, MA

#192225 Oct 15, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
Seeker, do you have a job or are you living on government handouts? You're here 24/7 posting polemics...
It keeps me away from psychic vampires.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#192226 Oct 15, 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
It is written on 759 leaves of vellum in uncial letters and has been dated palaeographically to the 4th century.[3][4]
Portions of the codex were collated by several scholars, but numerous errors made [...]. The Codex's relationship to the Latin Vulgate was unclear and scholars were initially unaware of the Codex's value.[5][...] text differed significantly from the Vulgate and the Textus Receptus.[6]
[...]with the Codex Sinaiticus as its only competitor. Until the discovery by Tischendorf of the Sinaiticus text, the Codex was unrivaled.[7][...]used by Westcott and Hort in their edition of The NT in the Original Greek in 1881
Codex Vaticanus originally contained a virtually complete copy of the Septuagint ("LXX"), lacking only 1-4 Maccabees and the Prayer of Manasseh. Genesis 1:1–46:28a (31 leaves) and Psalm 105:27–137:6b lost and were replaced by pages transcribed by a later hand in the 15th century.[9] 2 Kings 2:5–7, 10-13 are also lost because of a tear to one of the pages.[10] The order of the OT books [...]. This order differs from that followed in Codex Alexandrinus.[11]
Verses not in Vaticanus but in later manuscripts
The text of the New Testament lacks several passages:
Matthew 12:47; 16:2b-3; 17:21; 18:11; 23:14;[14]
Mark 7:16; 9:44.46; 11:26; 15:28;[15]
The end of Mark in Vaticanus contains an empty column after Verse 16:8, suggesting that the scribe was aware of the missing ending. It is the only empty New Testament column in the Codex.[16]Mark 16:9–20; —The Book of Mark ends with verse 16:8, consistent with the Alexandrian text-type.[17]
Luke 17:36, 22:43–44;[18]
John 5:4, Pericope Adulterae (John 7:53–8:11);[19]
Acts 8:37; 15:34, 24:7; 28:29;[20]
Romans 16:24.[21][22]
1 Peter 5:3.[23][24]
Phrases not in Vaticanus but in later manuscripts includeMatthew 5:44 –(bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you);[25]
Matthew 10:37b –(and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me) as Codex Bezae;[26]
Matthew 15:6 –(or (his) mother);[27]
Matthew 20:23 –(and be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with), as in codices Sinaiticus, D, L, Z, &#920;, 085, f1, f13, it, Syriac Sinaiticus (syrs), syrc, copsa.[28]
Mark 10:7 –(and be joined to his wife), as in codices Sinaiticus, Codex Athous Lavrensis, 892, &#8467; 48, Sinaitic Palimpsest (syrs), Gothic Codex Argenteus.[29]
Mark 10:19 – omitted (as in codices K, W, &#936;, f1, f13, 28, 700, 1010, 1079, 1242, 1546, 2148, &#8467; 10, &#8467; 950, &#8467; 1642, &#8467; 1761, syrs, arm, geo) but added by a later corrector (B2).[30]
Luke 9:55–56 –(and He said: "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of; for the Son of man came not to destroy men's lives but to save them)— omitted as in codices Sinaiticus, C, L, &#920;, &#926;, 33, 700, 892, 1241, Old Syriac version (syr), copbo;[31]
Luke 11:4 (but deliver us from evil) omitted. Omission is supported by the manuscripts:\mathfrak{P}75, Sinaiticus, L, f1 700 vg syrs copsa, bo, arm geo.[32]
Luke 23:34 – "And Jesus said: Father forgive them, they know not what they do." This omission is supported by the manuscripts \mathfrak{P}75, Sinaiticusa, D*, W, &#920;, 0124, 1241, a, d, syrs, copsa, copbo.[33]
Additions[edit]
In Matt. 27:49 the Codex contains added text:(and another took a spear, piercing His side, and out came water and blood). This reading was derived from John 19:34 and occurs in other manuscripts of the Alexandrian text-type (&#1488;, C, L, &#915;, 1010, 1293, pc, vgmss).[34]

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/scripture...
You can do the same search for the other books mentioned.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#192227 Oct 15, 2013
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Sham---I am aware of the Jews HATE towards Christians,
HughBe--- I am NOT aware of any such HATE, by Jews.
What I KNOW is that Christian Jews don't hate Christians. I also know that normal Jews meaning secular Jews don't hate Christians and I speak from personal knowledge. I do know that Judaism is HOSTILE to ALL peoples except those of its faith.
I would not be surprised to learn that any sect of Judaism that does not follow the BS of the rabbis will experience hostility for such is the ways of the ENSLAVERS of the Jews.
Sham-- the Jews are not out murdering innocent non-Muslims.
HughBe--- Ok, no murdering of non-Muslims is occurring but what about the murdering of Muslims? What is the story from the Palestinian's side and those of INTEGRITY on the opposite side?
Sham---Jesus says if you love me you will obey my commandments. So its the Muslims that do not love Jesus, nor do Muslims obey Gods commandments.
HughBe--- The good thing is that God sees the hearts of ALL. I am also saying that Judaism VIOLATES the laws of God and that is a FACT. Do members of Judaism obey the commandments of Jesus?
What about Hindus, do they obey Jesus?
What about ALL secular people , do they obey Jesus?
----------
Please deal with the outstanding matters below.
HughBe---Why are you mixing RELIGION i.e. Christianity with RACE i.e. Jews?
As a Christian are you aware that Christianity was established by Jews and that there are Jews who are Christians even today?
If you are so aware, were you thinking of Christian Jews when you spoke about Jews and Muslims killing them?
Yes, I am a Muslim and everybody knows this. Why did it take you so long to figure it out?
Tell me, can you say for sure that the animal flesh that you buy in the supermarkets are not leftovers of animals SACRIFICED to DEMONS?
As I have said before, in the scriptures many innocent infidels were murdered. What do you have to say about that?
Tell me, would you eat with a member of Judaism? Their rabbis MURDERED your Saviour.
Were you once interested in a Muslim girl and she broke your heart? Why this campaign against Muslims?
Are you aware of the HATE taught by many rabbis in Judaism including their SAGES?
Your post does not make any rational sense.
You are all over the place tooting your horn for the cause of hate as a legitimate excuse to commit murder.
You speak with an insane mind!

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#192228 Oct 15, 2013
The protestant denomination would have the same number of books bit catholic orthodox have 53 books in all.

Job/Iyob basicly only had 2 chapters, now it has many.

In general:

"Hebrew Bible" was coined to provide common ground for Jews and Christians to talk about the OT/Tanakh without getting hung up on theological points.
In the Hebrew Bible, the people of Israel are rarely called "Hebrews." There are about 32 instances, most of them occur in Genesis, Exodus, and 1 Samuel. It is noteworthy that the use of the term almost always reflects the perspective of foreign peoples. We have an Egyptian's reference to Joseph in Gen. 39:14 and 41:12. We have Jonah introducing himself in Jon. 1:9. We have the Philistines' perspective in 1 Sam. 29:3. The most common internal designation for the people (that is, the name they use for themselves in the Bible) is either "children of Israel," or "Israel," or "Ephraim," or "Judah." "Children of Israel" (lit. "sons of Israel") alone occurs around 500 times (e.g., Exod. 1:7, 11:10, etc.). The earliest extra-biblical reference to the Israelites comes from an Egyptian stele dating to around 1200 BCE which mentions "Israel" in a list of peoples or cities defeated in Canaan by Pharaoh Merneptah.
The term "Judahite" is used for people from Judah in the biblical books that reflect the period starting around 700 BCE or so.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#192229 Oct 15, 2013
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>

Being a loving person and one who cares about the physical and psychological well-being of others , I would have no objection to giving Maat my 2 BIG BRASS BALLS.
How kind of you, Ma.

Then, Black Ma, will you go around BALL-LESS?

Ya Ma.

LOL.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#192230 Oct 15, 2013
MAAT wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C odex_Vaticanus
It is written on 759 leaves of vellum in uncial letters and has been dated palaeographically to the 4th century.[3][4]
Portions of the codex were collated by several scholars, but numerous errors made [...]. The Codex's relationship to the Latin Vulgate was unclear and scholars were initially unaware of the Codex's value.[5][...] text differed significantly from the Vulgate and the Textus Receptus.[6]
[...]with the Codex Sinaiticus as its only competitor. Until the discovery by Tischendorf of the Sinaiticus text, the Codex was unrivaled.[7][...]used by Westcott and Hort in their edition of The NT in the Original Greek in 1881
Codex Vaticanus originally contained a virtually complete copy of the Septuagint ("LXX"), lacking only 1-4 Maccabees and the Prayer of Manasseh. Genesis 1:1–46:28a (31 leaves) and Psalm 105:27–137:6b lost and were replaced by pages transcribed by a later hand in the 15th century.[9] 2 Kings 2:5–7, 10-13 are also lost because of a tear to one of the pages.[10] The order of the OT books [...]. This order differs from that followed in Codex Alexandrinus.[11]
Verses not in Vaticanus but in later manuscripts
The text of the New Testament lacks several passages:
Matthew 12:47; 16:2b-3; 17:21; 18:11; 23:14;[14]
Mark 7:16; 9:44.46; 11:26; 15:28;[15]
The end of Mark in Vaticanus contains an empty column after Verse 16:8, suggesting that the scribe was aware of the missing ending. It is the only empty New Testament column in the Codex.[16]Mark 16:9–20; —The Book of Mark ends with verse 16:8, consistent with the Alexandrian text-type.[17]
Luke 17:36, 22:43–44;[18]
John 5:4, Pericope Adulterae (John 7:53–8:11);[19]
Acts 8:37; 15:34, 24:7; 28:29;[20]
Romans 16:24.[21][22]
1 Peter 5:3.[23][24]
Phrases not in Vaticanus but in later manuscripts includeMatthew 5:44 –(bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you);[25]
Matthew 10:37b –(and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me) as Codex Bezae;[26]
Matthew 15:6 –(or (his) mother);[27]
Matthew 20:23 –(and be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with), as in codices Sinaiticus, D, L, Z, &#920;, 085, f1, f13, it, Syriac Sinaiticus (syrs), syrc, copsa.[28]
Mark 10:7 –(and be joined to his wife), as in codices Sinaiticus, Codex Athous Lavrensis, 892, &#8467; 48, Sinaitic Palimpsest (syrs), Gothic Codex Argenteus.[29]
Mark 10:19 – omitted (as in codices K, W, &#936;, f1, f13, 28, 700, 1010, 1079, 1242, 1546, 2148, &#8467; 10, &#8467; 950, &#8467; 1642, &#8467; 1761, syrs, arm, geo) but added by a later corrector (B2).[30]
Luke 9:55–56 –(and He said: "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of; for the Son of man came not to destroy men's lives but to save them)— omitted as in codices Sinaiticus, C, L, &#920;, &#926;, 33, 700, 892, 1241, Old Syriac version (syr), copbo;[31]
Luke 11:4 (but deliver us from evil) omitted. Omission is supported by the manuscripts:\mathfrak{P}75, Sinaiticus, L, f1 700 vg syrs copsa, bo, arm geo.[32]
Luke 23:34 – "And Jesus said: Father forgive them, they know not what they do." This omission is supported by the manuscripts \mathfrak{P}75, Sinaiticusa, D*, W, &#920;, 0124, 1241, a, d, syrs, copsa, copbo.[33]
Additions[edit]
In Matt. 27:49 the Codex contains added text:(and another took a spear, piercing His side, and out came water and blood). This reading was derived from John 19:34 and occurs in other manuscripts of the Alexandrian text-type (&#1488;, C, L, &#915;, 1010, 1293, pc, vgmss).[34]
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/scripture...
You can do the same search for the other books mentioned.
So what are you proving MATT?
The thing that you are proving is that their are many copies of the Gospels from different sources that may or may not totally agree with the original copies of the Bible of today.
There is nothing unusual about that.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#192231 Oct 15, 2013
Seeker wrote:
<quoted text>

It keeps me away from psychic vampires.
You regularly interact with vampires - Rabbee and Maat - whose force fields are perverse and have a damaging effect on others and so take care.

I am serious.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#192232 Oct 15, 2013
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
You are mentally lazy. Since we have allready discussed some major ones like alma and betulah.
There would be no jesus if not for this major mistake in translation.
Maybe intentionally, because the time of conception of OT and NT is in some instances similar. And both those were re-edited time after time.
*Or they lost the very part with the alma/betulah in it.
I do not have the energy to reread and check.
We have entire threads filled with verse after verse...very tiresome.
Did you allready look up the revolving vav? Please do.
*Old books and all that so we lost some parts.
I'm not saying they did it on purpose but sometimes it makes you wonder.
---
At least the newest KJV has a full god names version.
All this lording about probable went on their nerves too.
The translation of the word alma meaning young women is irreverent.
For it is Mary herself that claimed she is a virgin.

Luke 1:26-38

New International Version (NIV)

The Birth of Jesus Foretold

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said,“Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her,“Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel,“since I am a virgin?”

35 The angel answered,“The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered.“May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#192233 Oct 15, 2013
http://biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/gol...

this is just an example.
I'm thinking of the bath in cubits, depending on the method used you would get the almost true version of pi.
But those are just the funny debates...the size of olives etc.

---
We went trough the old KJV which has a nice site that includes hebrew, which saves translating.
So it was easier to pick out the mistakes in translation.
Some newer version do not have that many mistakes anymore.

But recall the footnotes!

Cruxial are places were a verse has been cut in half, like in Isaiah. This leads to the wrong conclusion. Reading any translation would not make you notice that mistake.
Often people also forget what the chapter was initially about or do not know what the allusions mean.
---
Seeker i do not like discussions where people forget what they at least twice posted (even the website stated that the mistakes were only superficial, so what about those 70,000...i've not even seen 30 etc.) or that do not read what others post. Isaiah thus alma and betulah.

Where the greek took Alma-young girl/not having had a first child ( elem-young boy/youngster), the only alma Isaiah used just once, instead of 4 or 5 chances to use betulah=actual virgin.

The translation it went wrong.

We learned that part of the oldest translation was done by hebrew native speakers and the rest later added by greek or rather byzantian latin/greek speaking writers/correctors.

There might have been the issue of not having the proper term for it, so sticking with parthenos, but they also had the Athenean Eulysian mysteries with a betulah, an alma, and a full earthmother. So the concept was not that strange.
---

I went through that proces with HB (scrolling back, repeating etc.)
He has resolved that by quoting verbatim, which is nice.
---
If the pace is to fast none mind you slowing down.
A repost can also clear the confusion.
---
We stopped the direct translation because any and all were exhausted.
yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#192234 Oct 15, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
<quoted text>
You regularly interact with vampires - Rabbee and Maat - whose force fields are perverse and have a damaging effect on others and so take care.
I am serious.
rabbee: well who cares what your, perverted sucking force field pretends to call thinking. if at first you don't succeed, just keep on sucking the same way. i think you tend to over exaggerate, my benign power over your sucking hostility.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#192235 Oct 15, 2013
Shamma wrote:
<quoted text>The translation of the word alma meaning young women is irreverent.
For it is Mary herself that claimed she is a virgin.
Luke 1:26-38
New International Version (NIV)
The Birth of Jesus Foretold
26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said,“Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her,“Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”
34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel,“since I am a virgin?”
35 The angel answered,“The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”
38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered.“May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.
Other versions, parts of the gospel, will have the angel tell the good news to Joseph, so he changes his mind and stays with her.

In any case we speculated that she was maybe a quire-maiden (i can't spell a group of people singing in english...help!:))
so with a role in the temple and therefore it did not matter who the father was, she was blessed anyway.

I never looked into the rules about such things.

But messengers used to come at least in two's, so either joseph or mary had a dream-vision thus!
Seeing was important...a more blessed man would see more, and hear more than the ordinary man/woman.
No winged blokes clothèd in white would come flying by.
It would just be the ordinary senses at work.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#192236 Oct 15, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Elohim is the most often used word in the Tanakh of Jews. I do not trust Hebrew4Christians.
It is found more than 2,500 times in the Tanakh, according to my Jewish friends.
One would not find Elohim in the New Testament and you will find it interesting to know that the Greek word theos is a singular noun. There is no plural of theos.
By the way, the Old Testament is not really considered Tanakh.
God is One!

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matt. 28:18-20)

God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And all the divine attributes ascribed to the Father and the Son are equally ascribed to the Holy Spirit. When a person becomes born again by believing and receiving Jesus Christ (John 1:12-13; John 3:3-21), God resides in that person through the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 3:16). The Holy Spirit has intellect (1Cor. 2:11), emotion (Rom. 15:30), and will (1Cor. 12:11).

A primary role of the Holy Spirit is that He bears "witness" of Jesus Christ (John 15:26, 16:14). He tells people's hearts about the truth of Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit also acts as a teacher (1Cor. 2:9-14). He reveals God's will and God's truth to a believer in Jesus.

The problem you have BMZ is that you doubt that God has the power do all things.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#192237 Oct 15, 2013
short

Seeker john 4 sees jesus using yakub as binding word.

She is not convinced we read in the greek version.
Modern versions act like she swallowed all hook line and sinker.

He is the water...a deity the greek states...not ha-shem or the father or shema.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#192238 Oct 15, 2013
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
Other versions, parts of the gospel, will have the angel tell the good news to Joseph, so he changes his mind and stays with her.
In any case we speculated that she was maybe a quire-maiden (i can't spell a group of people singing in english...help!:))
so with a role in the temple and therefore it did not matter who the father was, she was blessed anyway.
I never looked into the rules about such things.
But messengers used to come at least in two's, so either joseph or mary had a dream-vision thus!
Seeing was important...a more blessed man would see more, and hear more than the ordinary man/woman.
No winged blokes clothèd in white would come flying by.
It would just be the ordinary senses at work.
brainwave choir-maiden

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