Judge it!that'd be great if PBS explored both sides, but in my experience they rarely do. i don't mind opposition to my faith at all, but i do wish they would present both sides clearly. it's a little annoying to see what people like myself as well as thousands of respectable scientists and historians believe to be true, based on evidence, being passed off as whimsical superstition.Good for PBS. It's way past time for people myths and superstitions were put to the test of reason.
Archaeology
Holy Moses! PBS documentary suggests Exodus not real
- Posted in the Archaeology Forum
Comments (Page 16)
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Okay, having read a number of posts, I would just like to take a few minutes out to write some apologetics from a Christian perspective, because anyone reading them who is not well-versed in the Scriptures could easily be confused.
First of all, to pass off the Bible as a mere poetic work of literature is ridiculous. Several of you just laughed, or let out an oversized huff and passed me off as a religious fanatic, but bear with me. I have a very scientific mind myself and have always made a point to refuse to believe something absolutely until I have been able to prove it to myself. I have faith, but not blind faith. First of all, contrary to popular belief, there is a lot of archaeological and historical (textual etc) evidence for many biblical occurances, old testament and new testament. While some books are definitely poetic (i.e. Proverbs, Psalms, Ecclesiastes) and some, such as Job and Revalation are debatably poetic, to consider the entire bible a work of someone's imagination is to deny the existence of hordes of evidence in favor of biblical accounts. Secondly, the Bible is much more than a poem, a story or a list of do's and don'ts. For instance, it is full of ridiculous amounts of prophesies. Some of these came true in the context of the bible itself. For instance, a number of prophesies were made in the Old Testament concerning the life of Christ (i.e. his birthplace, the places he lived, the way he died etc.). And not all of these are based on religion or unprovable things. Even atheists acknowledge that Christ was a real person and can see recorded the places where he was born, where he visited, and where and how he died. These were all prophesied in the Old Testament. check out these sites: http://www.cynet.com/Jesus/PROPHECY/ntquoted.... http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm . Additionally, there are several other prophesies which have come true AFTER biblical times (i.e. the destruction of the temple, the scattering of the Hebrew people, the reformation of the Hebrew people as the nation of Israel). Some may thing this is nonsense, but it really did it for me. There actually codes in the Old Testament of the bible. These codes are throughout several books of the Old Testament which are written by different authors, and are so complicated they were just recently decoded with the use of supercomputers, which means that they could not have been put together by human hands. These codes were looked for in other religious texts, such as the Talmud, but were not found there. I won't get into it more, because this is a very controversial topic even among the Christian community, but many have considered it and decided that it is proof that the Bible is more than a literary work writted by humans and that it must have been inspired by God himself. If anyone is interested, there is a great book entitled The Signature of God. So, based on all these things, to consider the Bible a mere literary work without truly exploring all the avenues is to completely deny the life's work of many archaeologists and historians who have found their discoveries to be proof that the Bible is factual and God-breathed. You can't dismiss it until you DISPROVE it. And that just takes a look at the evidence. Go ahead, take a look, but be honest with yourself and seek the Truth, not something to satisfy yourself or try to prove yourself right. Always remain as unbiased as possibe and give equal attention to both sides. That's the way to go and its the #1 rule in any scientific, historical or journalistic field. |
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Okay the bulk is over, now for a couple quickies. A few people claimed or implied that the words of the Bible are dismissible because they were "translated so many times" or because they're similar to other religions. So let me just say a few words on that. It's true that the Bible has been translated many times. But here's what many don't understand. It's not that there was a series of translations, each sprouting from the one before it until you ended up with a distorted mess, like a textual game of telephone. There are many versions and translations, but they did not come from one another; they all went back to the original texts--usually series of thousands of texts all written about the same time with minor grammatical discrepencies--and translated them in different ways. And naturally, if hundreds of different people translated the same work from Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, they would come up with a few different meanings. But for the most part, even the differences between the many versions of the Bible that exist today are miniscule and certainly do not alter the meaning or the message.
Interestingly enough, the argument that the Bible has been changed or altered is a major argument of Muslims and other people who deny the authenticity of Christ as the Messiah. These people argue that the Old Testament, which clearly prophesies many aspects of Christ's life and ministry, was altered after Christ's death so that it would fit perfectly. This argument was silenced, however, with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were uncovered in a series of caves on the NW shore of the Dead Sea from 1947 to 1956. The scrolls contained full copies of every Old Testament book except Esther and were now the oldest Old Testament manuscripts ever discovered, with the manuscript of the book of Isaiah dating back to 1000 years before the oldest known. Surprisingly to some, the texts were virtually the same as they are today, unchanged except for a few insignificant changes in spelling, grammar or word useage. So guess what, as far as I can see that argument kinda falls apart. I'm not sure if there is any evidence the other way, but please present it if there is. To Butte County Blogger, yeah those are some tough issues, but they are not ignored or pushed away. Divorce is wrong. Slavery is wrong. If you're referring to the point in the bible where it says "slaves, submit to your masters," that is true. THis is not saying that slavery is ok, but that slaves ought to submit and love their masters with the love of Christ rather than using violence to break free. It does not say "masters, keep your slaves." Polygamy is honestly a tough one for me. I point to the verse in the Bible that says 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'(Matthew 19:5). Okay just a FINAL note for Jim. I'm not even going to touch your aliens-created-us hypothesis, not to say that it's foolish but rather because it would take way too much time to discuss here. However, to say that the Bible is in support of said hypothesis is somewhat foolish, especially because the book of Genesis continues a few verses later to say that God created the beasts of the earth and of the sea, and that He "formed man out of the dust of the earth, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." If you're wondering why the verse you reverenced is plural, it is referring to the topic of the Trinity, the biblical idea that God is one God,(Here o Israel, the Lord thy God is One Lord, and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and with all thy strength) but has three distinct parts (Matthew 28:19). It doesn't support extraterrestrial creation or polytheism, as some have interpreted it. |
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Okay thank you to anyone who has had the will power to read this through to the end. If anyone has any questions, problems, refutations or any other 'issues' with what i've said, feel free to post or to email me at sk8rsam224@yahoo.com. I love debating and would love even more to tell people about the mindboggling and miraculous (literally) experiences i've had in my relationship with Christ. Just for the record this is by far the longest post i've ever written and had to be split in 3 ^_^.
Farewell and God bless, SAM |
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The need to think in a knee-jerk manner that your faith is literally true, and other faiths are just plain wrong is rooted in the human ego. Of course there are many things in the sacred writings of all major religions, including Christianity's Bible, that are not literally true! The need to believe otherwise is a search for security rather than a search for truth.
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I must say that you are both correct and incorrect in that assertion. There are many things that are not to be taken literally. The Bible is full of parables, poems and love-letters. However, there is also much of the Bible that is written as history and stated to be history within the text.
The problem is that you have got me backwards. I do not believe the Bible so I have security and "something to believe in." I have sought truth and found it there. Both moral truth and historical truth, which, believe it or not, is scientifically and historically supported. I wrote the above post expecting an insult on my faith to ensue, but please do not insult my intelligence or my humanity by saying that my faith is a vain attempt at security, that I do not seek truth, for I have sought it wholeheartedly. ---------- Jesus answered, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."--John 14:6 |
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"Go ahead, take a look, but be honest with yourself and seek the Truth, not something to satisfy yourself or try to prove yourself right."
--just a quote from my original post. based on your statement, you must have missed that part. |
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Religion is FAKE and phony, how you suckers cant see thatis beyond me, religion was created thousands of years ago so the rulers could have a"boogie Man" to keep the slaves and lowlifes behaving..it actually works today to a degree, all you silly believers dont do things because you think your god will keep you out of heaven if you do this or do that, such silly nonsense. |
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Let me just say that good works have nothing to do with true christianity. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
(Ephesians 2:8-9) The ramifications of what you conclude have been given no forethought. Only the selfishness of getting to spew (my) theory. That's a nice opinion. I've heard it many times before. Now prove it. |
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Sam Kephart, isn't it wonderful that we live in the United States of America where you are free to practice your faith and believe with your heart and mind and soul what you will and so am I?
And we are both free to discuss our faith to our wits end? I am glad PBS will air a show in November that will stir up discussion so many seek answers and discuss questions of faith. Such discussion are always good for the soul. All I fear are they who seek to force their beliefs on others or who seek to force their beliefs into the law books. They, I fear. Still I appreciate all the time you took to type out your beliefs and understandings for us here. I do not share your faith and religion but I do respect your rights! |
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Thank you very much. I respect not only your opinion, but most of all your attitude. I thank you sincerely for not attacking my faith. I too am rather unfond of those who choose to force their religions or beliefs on others, or "beat people in the head with Bibles" as i like to say, especially because according to my own faith we are not to do so (Ephesians 4:29). While i am grieved at what seems to be a moral decline in our lawmaking system, i too am proud to live in America and would be disapproving of any law that infringed upon the rights of others, though i fear some laws being made as of late which infringe on my religious freedom, but that is another discussion altogether.
Thank you very much for your kindness, and while I can only hope that you will one day find the joy and fulfillment that I have found in Christ, I respect you and refuse to force my own opinions on anyone else.--but that doesn't mean i'm gonna shut up either ^_^ Thank you very much. Wow it's like 2 in the morning here. i'm off to bed. |
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Yes, i've seen the wind. You can see it blowing stuff around. I dont see no god. Not ANYWHERE. Face it already, your "god" is a fairytale. Have you ever seen Santa Claus? No. So how do you know he aint real? |
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Well, well, well, you don't say! Father Xmas doesn't exist!, Neither do Adam, Eve, Moses. In fact there is more evidence to support Homer's Illiad than anything in the Ancient Testament prior to Josiah and the Babylonian exile. Tribal/nationalist/theocratic propaganda, nothing more. And the jews were canaanites, what a surprise. Honest archeologists have known this for 20-30 years at least. Isn't it time we learned to respect scientific honesty more than religious blindness.
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Sam, if you want to see both sides try this: There are hundreds of thousands of churches in this country that hold services regularly. There are several television networks devoted solely to Chritian broadcasting 24 hours a day. There are Christian television shows on all of the broadcst networks at one time or another. There are Bibles in most of the hotel rooms in this country and Christian talk shows on the radio throughout the country. And on the other side you have one program from one series on the least-watched network in the country that simply questions the historical accuracy of an event in a religious text but does not dismiss or denigrate that religion or religion in general. What exactly is it that annoys you? Is it that someone hasn't strong-armed PBS into cancelling the show and replacing it with "The 700 Club"? And why do you consider this "opposition" to your faith? Also, can you provide some kind of backup for your claim that there are thousands of historians and scientists who believe the story of Exodus based on "evidence." Maybe you can share that evidence. Oh and BTW: I am a believer in God. My faith isn't shaken by a TV show, it runs a lot deeper than that. |
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The burden of proof of a god lies on the shoulders of the religious. Prove to me that there is a god and I will believe in it.
"The logic is that since an elementary school student cannot prove the quadratic equation, it must not exist". Funny, I was just going to say something similar about arguments intelligent designers give when they try to make heads or tails of the scientific process. Freethinkers and the faithless educated go on the scientific process to present facts, not fairy tales. A religious person distorts the truth to fit their beliefs then attempts to infect the scientific process with their skewed data. There is no evidence that there is a god but there is plenty of evidence that the Jews and Christians stole their ideas from earlier religions who based their beliefs on the movement of the constellations. There is also evidence that the Christians modeled their lies to fit other earlier 'prophecies' in order to 'prove' the myth of Jesus and be accepted as a religion. I, for one, cannot wait for this documentary to air because I enjoy learning. I enjoy educating myself. I enjoy fact over the 'truth' of the religious.
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Steve, with all due respect, you analogy is fundamentally flawed. First, people can see wind. Wind and all climatological phenomena are by and large caused by the transfer of energy from one portion of the planet to another. Heat is the primary energy source for a phenomenon such as the wind, and when one looks at heat waves rising from the gound on a hot day with the background distorted by the resultant mirage, one has seen wind. Or if one sees a sand storm one has seen wind. Moreover, and more to the point, even if one of our physical senses is not adapted to detect wind, i.e., our eyesight, we certainly have other senses which are so adapted, i.e., hearing and our sense of touch and feel. Let's turn your analogy around. Basically your position is that since one cannot quantifiably measure or document God's existence, then that necessarily implies his existence. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it requires one to disprove a negative. Consider another variation on your analogy and line of reasoning. Assume that someone you were to say that there is a family of magic invisible fairies living underneath rose bushes or hedges in your backyard whose existence defies detection by any scientific method. Just because the fairies cannot be detected, this does not prove their existence. Rather, the inability of science to prove the existence of the magic fairies would be pretty convincing evidence, to a reasonably degree of scientific certainty, that the fairies do not exist. |
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public television is not commercial. as a result, they are not included in the nielson ratings system. public tv programming is underwritten by corporate sponsorships that are not based on ratings, but qualitative analysis of the audience... such as income level, education and similar demographic and psychographic (lifestyle) information. |
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do we see the wind, or its impact? such as sand flying in the desert. we don't see the wind, but we see itws impact on the sand, or the movement of trees, etc. i do agree that we feel it. i also agree with your main point in yourt post |
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Why is it necessary to get upset? What if what you have been taught all your life turns out to be a lie? Wouldn't you want to know the truth? Never be afraid to question your beliefs, it's a frightening thing, but the only way to know if you are wasting your peace and happiness awaiting some armaggedon that is never coming, or believing some religion that is controlling every aspect of your life. Today because I questioned, cautiously at first, and thoroughly researched, I am now free, and happier than ever, I still believe in a Creator just not the bible god.
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I am just the opposite. I am very religious and still attend church. I just don't believe in God. |
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