Origin of Hindu Brahmins

Aug 1, 2008 Full story: Dienekes' Anthropology Blog 178

Sengupta et al. suggest a Paleolithic/Neolithic, pre-Indo-European, origin of most Hindu Y chromosomes.

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“ I Am She SaHum”

Since: Apr 07

World

#1 Aug 1, 2008
May I cut and paste

Although considerable cultural impact on social hierarchy and language in South Asia is attributable to the arrival of nomadic Central Asian pastoralists, genetic data (mitochondrial and Y chromosomal) have yielded dramatically conflicting inferences on the genetic origins of tribes and castes of South Asia. We sought to resolve this conflict, using high-resolution data on 69 informative Y-chromosome binary markers and 10 microsatellite markers from a large set of geographically, socially, and linguistically representative ethnic groups of South Asia. We found that the influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. The ages of accumulated microsatellite variation in the majority of Indian haplogroups exceed 10,000–15,000 years, which attests to the antiquity of regional differentiation. Therefore, our data do not support models that invoke a pronounced recent genetic input from Central Asia to explain the observed genetic variation in South Asia. R1a1 and R2 haplogroups indicate demographic complexity that is inconsistent with a recent single history. Associated microsatellite analyses of the high-frequency R1a1 haplogroup chromosomes indicate independent recent histories of the Indus Valley and the peninsular Indian region. Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus and with significant genetic input resulting from demic diffusion associated with agriculture. Our results underscore the importance of marker ascertainment for distinguishing phylogenetic terminal branches from basal nodes when attributing ancestral composition and temporality to either indigenous or exogenous sources. Our reappraisal indicates that pre-Holocene and Holocene-era—not Indo-European—expansions have shaped the distinctive South Asian Y-chromosome landscape.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerende...

Is this the last of ARYAN INVASION THEORY
radar xyz

Hyderabad, India

#2 Aug 1, 2008
This is what dienkies infact says
"Sengupta et al.( suggest a Paleolithic/Neolithic, pre-Indo-European, origin of most Hindu Y chromosomes. This inference is, however, a house of cards resting on the assumption of a slow evolutionary mutation rate, which I have criticized elsewhere.
In my previous post, I suggested a Bronze Age origin for many Indian Y chromosome haplogroups. In this one, I use Ken Nordtvedt's Generations2 program to estimate ages for upper-caste Indians (Brahmins). As Brahmin status is elevated within the Hindu caste system, and is conferred patrilineally, Brahmins are excellent candidates for determining whether or not an exogenous Bronze Age population is responsible for the introduction of Indo-Aryan languages and the establishment of the caste system in India, in accordance with the much-challenged traditional opinion.
IDYS388 tends to mutate very slowly in most human lineages, but quite fast in haplogroup J, therefore I report results with or without its inclusion.
The three most populous haplogroups (R1a1, R2, J2a) are the best candidates for lineages of exogenous origin, and have Bronze Age coalescence time, in accordance with the traditional theory. However, indigenous lineages (H1 and L1) and others with fewer numbers did enter into the Brahmin gene pool. The majority (64%) does appear to trace its ancestry to the early Indo-Aryans.
Thus, the congruent distribution of haplogroups R1a1 and R2 in India, as well as the limited occurrence of haplogroup J2a mostly in upper castes are easily explained.
An argument against R1a1's Indo-Aryan affiliation is that it is more diverse in tribal Indians. Yet R1a1 occurs at very low frequencies in tribal Indians, who in turn form a very small part of Indian society. A better explanation is that R1a1 in tribals is due to multiple founder effects, and its elevated presence among Indo-European tribals supports this scenario.
The pattern of J2a and R1a1 occurrence and age suggests different roles for these two lineages. J2a seems older, consistent with a larger effective population size, whereas R1a1 is found at a higher frequency and is not limited to Brahmins.
Perhaps, J2a formed the nucleus of the priestly caste, allowing it to diversify for some period of time, with a later founding of a succesful Brahmin lineage by a group of R1a1 males of different caste origin. Such conjectures will have to remain speculative for the time being"
Well,be it west asian or indo european ,we are proud of our ancestory,our olive skin and light eyes.
Old magi

Hyderabad, India

#4 Aug 1, 2008
Anyways,I would be happy even if it is proven than my origin is asian or african .I would be happy anyways.

Peace peace peace.
Old magi

Hyderabad, India

#5 Aug 1, 2008
Not all brahmins are fair,there are dark brahmins too

“ I Am She SaHum”

Since: Apr 07

World

#6 Aug 2, 2008
Old magi wrote:
Anyways,I would be happy even if it is proven than my origin is asian or african .I would be happy anyways.
Peace peace peace.
Good point

Since: Jul 07

Location hidden

#7 Aug 2, 2008
Old magi wrote:
Anyways,I would be happy even if it is proven than my origin is asian or african .I would be happy anyways.
Peace peace peace.
Common genetic ancestry of all humans is proven to be african - this is not disputed by any scientists in the field as far as I know.

Since: Jul 07

Location hidden

#8 Aug 2, 2008
Want to be Hindu wrote:
May I cut and paste
Although considerable cultural impact on social hierarchy and language in South Asia is attributable to the arrival of nomadic Central Asian pastoralists, genetic data (mitochondrial and Y chromosomal) have yielded dramatically conflicting inferences on the genetic origins of tribes and castes of South Asia. We sought to resolve this conflict, using high-resolution data on 69 informative Y-chromosome binary markers and 10 microsatellite markers from a large set of geographically, socially, and linguistically representative ethnic groups of South Asia. We found that the influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. The ages of accumulated microsatellite variation in the majority of Indian haplogroups exceed 10,000–15,000 years, which attests to the antiquity of regional differentiation. Therefore, our data do not support models that invoke a pronounced recent genetic input from Central Asia to explain the observed genetic variation in South Asia. R1a1 and R2 haplogroups indicate demographic complexity that is inconsistent with a recent single history. Associated microsatellite analyses of the high-frequency R1a1 haplogroup chromosomes indicate independent recent histories of the Indus Valley and the peninsular Indian region. Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus and with significant genetic input resulting from demic diffusion associated with agriculture. Our results underscore the importance of marker ascertainment for distinguishing phylogenetic terminal branches from basal nodes when attributing ancestral composition and temporality to either indigenous or exogenous sources. Our reappraisal indicates that pre-Holocene and Holocene-era—not Indo-European—expansions have shaped the distinctive South Asian Y-chromosome landscape.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerende...
Is this the last of ARYAN INVASION THEORY
Hi WTBH, thanks for this link - it does indeed put the onus on the AIT / AMT camp to show how a linguistic theory that is unsupported or even refuted by both archaeology and biology can possibly be true.

Whats even more interesting about this one is that it even places dravidian speakers in the south of india. This should also lay to rest the claim that the harappan civilisation was "dravidian".
Lalitaditya muktapida

Hyderabad, India

#10 Aug 4, 2008
Well Mr JOTB,

Have you never heard of caucasian mummies found in tarim basin(Sakadwipa in sanskrit)

“ I Am She SaHum”

Since: Apr 07

World

#11 Aug 4, 2008
Lalitaditya muktapida wrote:
Well Mr JOTB,
Have you never heard of caucasian mummies found in tarim basin(Sakadwipa in sanskrit)
Whats the point?
anonymous

Chicago, IL

#12 Oct 11, 2008
although there are brahmins who look dark, with different facial and body structures etc...

to a far extent it is the brahmins(and kshatriyas) who look more european/ caucasian than anyone else

Brahmins like Eg: Tendulkar, Madhuri Dixit, Ajit Agarkar, Dravid, MAmatha Kulkarni, konkani people, vidya balan, Gavaskar, Urvashi sharma-model, Prakash padukone-badminton, kamal hassan-(south indian) and many more to quote
There are other brahmins like Javagal Srinath, Venkatesh PRasad etc...

Anyway, god bless them all!
indian pride

Singapore, Singapore

#13 Nov 10, 2008
anonymous wrote:
although there are brahmins who look dark, with different facial and body structures etc...
to a far extent it is the brahmins(and kshatriyas) who look more european/ caucasian than anyone else
Brahmins like Eg: Tendulkar, Madhuri Dixit, Ajit Agarkar, Dravid, MAmatha Kulkarni, konkani people, vidya balan, Gavaskar, Urvashi sharma-model, Prakash padukone-badminton, kamal hassan-(south indian) and many more to quote
There are other brahmins like Javagal Srinath, Venkatesh PRasad etc...
Anyway, god bless them all!
you dirty brahmin piece of shit. bless your caste people only huh. and all the people you've mentioned don't look caucasian to me.
anonymous

Chicago, IL

#14 Nov 15, 2008
indian pride wrote:
<quoted text>
you dirty brahmin piece of shit. bless your caste people only huh. and all the people you've mentioned don't look caucasian to me.
they do......
and btw... screw you
I am not telling that they are white race or anything.. I am just making a point to the ignorant fools like you and people above
observer

Singapore, Singapore

#15 Nov 16, 2008
I have met a large share of south indian brahmins. I went to an iyengar matriculation school. They all look like other dravidians. I can't tell apart a dravidian brahmin and a regular dravidian.
child of Bharath matha

Singapore, Singapore

#16 Mar 13, 2009
they do......
and btw... screw you
I am not telling that they are white race or anything.. I am just making a point to the ignorant fools like you and people above
They don't, except when you look through brahmin eyes.
child of Bharath matha

Singapore, Singapore

#17 Mar 13, 2009
"they do......
and btw... screw you
I am not telling that they are white race or anything.. I am just making a point to the ignorant fools like you and people above"- chicago brahmin

They don't, except when you look through biased eyes.
Anonymous

North Hatfield, MA

#19 Mar 29, 2009
I am a brahmin of kaudinya gotra. I belong to r2 haplogroup. It is my understanding that some parsi males also belong to this haplogroup. If one reads the bhavishya puran, it mentions that maga priests were brought into the hindu fold. This happened that the foreign tribes such as indo-scythian, indo-parthians, & smartians, etc started to migrate into north-western india some 2500 years ago. Thus, I firmly believe that priests belonging to different Aryan races came together to classify themselves as brahmins. This could be the reason why brahmins of different regions preferred not to marry with one another. After all, aryanism of northwestern south asia & central asia comprised of various races. Prior to that, brahmins, who lived along the banks of Saraswati, migrated to UP, Bihar, & Southern India as the river dried up. Therefore, every type of brahmin group has a story of their past.
Surender

Delhi, India

#20 Apr 8, 2009
1.Brahmins,Persians belong to one race.
2.Brahmins belonged to the priestly class who excelled in scholarly pursuits.
3.Some Brahmin break ups and classes felt it necessary to indulge in warfare for defense of their clan and hence later formed into group called Kshatriyas or Rajputs and still another group was forced to till the land for survival and hence became Jats.
4.The Brahmins ,Persians,Scandinavians ,Germans,Europeans,Rajputs and Jats have common racial and genetic features.The later admixture of blood and hot climate has resulted in change of genes for skin colour.
5.The responsibility to protect religion and masses initially was with Brahmins .,that is why so far the maximum deaths to the tune of almost touching several thousands used to occur in Brahmins as the invaders first target used to be Brahmins as others were left out,In Somnath as well as during Lodhi regime in Delhi,more than twenty five thusand Brahmins were cut into pieces for their refusal to convert inti Islam.Subsequentely the job for defence was taken over by Rajputs of India and Jats of Indus Valley earlier during Bin Kasim,s attack.
6.It is part of history that Brahmins formed a part of Army of Hussein and they died fighting for him and hence were called Husseini Brahmins.
7.A large portion of population of Iran and Iraq are of Indian descent particularly of Brahmins and Jats in Arab as they were taken their as captives of war and also in earlier times many Indians as per their habit of wandering and travelling made Arabia their home and translated many Indian works in native languages.
TLR

Faridabad, India

#21 Apr 8, 2009
According to Mythology Lord Brahma created the four Varnas, and their functions were clearly defined. The fighting was for the Kshatriyas only.
After SamudraGupta/ Chandra Gupta II there is a gap in time when the Hun, Kushan, Shakas came from North West. The Kshatriyas were perhaps depleated and the new settlers were the New Kshatriyas or the present day Rajputs. Those from them who were not fighters were assimilated as Vaishyas.
In nut shell the Brahmins are perhaps the most original dewellers of Saraswati Valley. Altough thereafter much intermingling took place and the result is the present day society.
The tradition of 'Hussaini Brahmins' may perhaps have been a group of traders who were in Arabia at that time.
Since Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism traditions were not perhaps as sharp the clearcut caste divide perhaps emerged later. So all Indians are from the same general stock with a lot of intermingling.
Brahmin Knowledge

Sydney, Australia

#23 Jun 27, 2009
observer wrote:
I have met a large share of south indian brahmins. I went to an iyengar matriculation school. They all look like other dravidians. I can't tell apart a dravidian brahmin and a regular dravidian.
You're a damn fool. The key difference between a brahmin and a non-brahmin is in his/her "riiti". I'll translate this for you as you being a Non-Brahmin wouldn't understand this Sanskrit word. "Riiti" means style. In this context, I'm referring to the diction. A Brahmin is usually more articulate and educated than a non-brahmin. The style and usage of his/her words are rarely out of context. Brahmins ALL HAIL FROM VARANASI and some came to South India to escape the Muslim invasion, which was prolific in the Northern regions. A Brahmin is an Aryan no matter where he/she has settled in India.
Baabs

AOL

#24 Jun 27, 2009
We can jump as high or as low as we want, but we can't deny that natural intelligence can predominate in certain classes or groups of people in every society. It may just be a matter of genetic inheritance/transmission that is always hard to swallow when we find ourselves struggling to compete, even in an equal playing field .

That is not to say that anyone should be denied the equal opportunity based on the classes into which they find themselves in society or stigmatized for not taking opportunity of all the supports that are provided in building an egalitarian society.

Eeryone, regardless of the social structure in which they were born or which prevails in any country, must be encouraged to take advantage of growing to their full potential just as a matter of justice, fairness, equal opportunity and national pride.

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