Intelligent Design: Coming To A State Legislature Near You

[MichiganGEL]

PoKay1kaDuB wrote:

... one possible theory that might help you is that some form of Creation had to occur first as in the creation of energy from which all else "evolves" ... But after the "Creation", there HAD to be evolution. Energy gives way to matter gives way to elements, gives way to combinations of them gives way to everything we know and see. The only thing in question is the mechanism. And that for the most part is not that important at the present time, except for the sake of arguement and especially as a mindset that we have to stay open to the possibilities. Funny thing we know most of the mechanisms of spontaneous (natural) processes, but the mechanism of abiogenesis is not known in the least.(that's one reason to consider abiogenesis not natural) Mechanisms of evolution however are in some areas fairly clear.
Energy had to be created by a higher power because measley humans cannot create or destroy energy, by law. You might be able to say (speculate) that the FIRST lifeform was "created" in a sense, but you have to give in to evolution after that.

PoK and Shinning,
Your discussion of matter/energy, information, etc. came to mind when I read this excerpt of one of Gerald Schroeder's articles:

QUOTE:
It took humanity millennia before an Einstein discovered that, as bizarre as it may seem, matter is actually condensed energy. It may take a while longer for us to discover that there is some non-thing even more fundamental than energy that forms the basis of energy. In the words of John Archibald Wheeler, the renowned former president of the American Physical Society, recipient of the Einstein Award and Princeton professor of physics, underlying all existence is an idea, the "bit" of information that gives rise to the "it" of matter.

The substructure of all existence, we suddenly realize, is totally ethereal, an idea, wisdom. Or in Hebrew emet — an all encompassing reality. Emet is the ultimate building block from which all we see and feel is constructed. Just as the secondary substructure of all matter is something as ethereal as energy, as per Einstein's fantastic insight, so, the primary substructure of energy is still more elusive. Existence is the expression of an idea, an eternal consciousness made tangible. We are the idea of God.

If we can discover that idea, we will have ascertained not only the basis for the unity that underlies all existence, but most important, the source of that unity. "We will have encountered the soul of God."
END QUOTE
Complete article at:
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/existence.html

[Cousin Jethro]

Darwins Stepchild wrote:

<quoted text>
One of the points that NOVA made was that there is NO evidence of the Europeans under discussion having boats of any kind.
That of course, does not mean they didn't have them, but does put a big hole in the hypothesis.
I still find the idea intriguing, and not impossible. But it does need to be taken with a large grain of salt.

Or a large pan of salt water; have no knowledge of any 17,000 year old boat surviving any where; would guess the oldest would be those from Egyptian tombs. In the Med the Phoenicians are usually given credit for the earliest sea-faring, and from the quality of craft found in North America after Columbus and in the accounts of the Vikings, it would seem that the traffic would have been in the other direction, if at all...

[Cousin Jethro]

been there9 wrote:

<quoted text>In order for any tonic to work you would probably have to achieve the state of a spiritual alchemist, with all the knowledge of how to transform matter and with no question or doubt. Of course if you could obtain this state you probably wouldn't have much more use of this particular embodiment.

Of those said to have "walked or wafted" out of this particular embodiment, or suspected to have done so, we have very few examples indeed in the histories mythological or no: Enoch, Ezekiel, Jesus, perhaps his surrogate father Joseph, his mother Mary at her "dormition," Lao Tzu (?), Count St Germaine, Nicholas Flammel -- and this last was said frankly to have quite discovered the ways back and forth and transmutation of lead into gold (?)...it all has to do with cinnabar, cinnamon, sinlessness -- or All together -- have some nice electrons -- they're on the house

[Drew Smith]

MichiganGEL wrote:

I was just trying to bring in something more challenging for you to tackle.

Was it tackled to your satisfaction?

[MichiganGEL]

TedHOhio wrote:

<quoted text>
Hey NVB-Melanie, that's not part of Evolutionary theory, it's called Abiogenesis. Gee a 'teacher' who can't keep her subjects straight.
Take a peek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_gene...

Ah, but if biogenesis vs abiogenesis is part of the ID controversy, as I believe it is, then it should be OK to bring it up for discussion on this thread: "ID Coming to a ... "
But, in the classroom, they should both be discussed together or not at all.

[been there9]

Cousin Jethro wrote:

<quoted text>
Of those said to have "walked or wafted" out of this particular embodiment, or suspected to have done so, we have very few examples indeed in the histories mythological or no: Enoch, Ezekiel, Jesus, perhaps his surrogate father Joseph, his mother Mary at her "dormition," Lao Tzu (?), Count St Germaine, Nicholas Flammel -- and this last was said frankly to have quite discovered the ways back and forth and transmutation of lead into gold (?)...it all has to do with cinnabar, cinnamon, sinlessness -- or All together -- have some nice electrons -- they're on the house

I hope your sense of humor is intact as I can't help but ask. Were you ever employed by Dr. Bronner to contribute to the writings on his soap labels?

[MichiganGEL]

Drew Smith wrote:

<quoted text>
Was it tackled to your satisfaction?

Wish I knew enough about genetics to answer that!! But, at least no penalty for unnecessary roughness!... Thanks! ;-)

[Cousin Jethro]

been there9 wrote:

<quoted text>I hope your sense of humor is intact as I can't help but ask. Were you ever employed by Dr. Bronner to contribute to the writings on his soap labels?

Sure, why else would you think I foam at the mouth, sometimes -- aside from getting it washed out

[Jennifer]

great

[shinningelectr0n]

MichiganGEL wrote:

<quoted text>
This may *really* be farfetched, but there was another PBS program about an anthropologist who found evidence (DNA test of a blond Mongolian girl) for Amazon Warrior Women in Mongolia with European features. Maybe that European DNA made it all the way eastward across Asia to the Bering Strait and N.A.?

I recall that program, too. There are so many possibilities that it might turn out that they're all true. The North and South American continents may have been on the itinerary of many outside cultures. Makes me wonder where dumb blonds originated from, though.

[shinningelectr0n]

Cousin Jethro wrote:

<quoted text>
I would disagree a little, as if time and energy have periodicities of billions of years and trillions of joules -- they are in effect fairly infinite by our puny standards, at least as well beyond our physical bounds...as to the shifting of priorities, that's one of those activities that's both part of the problem as well as part of the solution of being alive, with risk in either direction [change/no change]

My blurb about limited energy was, of course, restricted to human physiology and not the entire universe. I used to be able to metabolize like a raging bonfire. Right now, I'm lucky to flick my Bic three times in one day.

Changing priorities, to some, is seen as a tactic to out-maneuver the fates. But, gee whiz, the fates always had your every move included in your itinerary from the outset. Pull the oars out from gunrail, set them alongside and enjoy the ride. Of course, keep a strong hand on that rudder and be sure to keep the seatbelt buckled. Don't look back.

[Cousin Jethro]

shinningelectr0n wrote:

<quoted text>
My blurb about limited energy was, of course, restricted to human physiology and not the entire universe. I used to be able to metabolize like a raging bonfire. Right now, I'm lucky to flick my Bic three times in one day.
Changing priorities, to some, is seen as a tactic to out-maneuver the fates. But, gee whiz, the fates always had your every move included in your itinerary from the outset. Pull the oars out from gunrail, set them alongside and enjoy the ride. Of course, keep a strong hand on that rudder and be sure to keep the seatbelt buckled. Don't look back.

Yes, Earthling advice from Satchel Page -- "Don't look back, something might be gaining on you."

[Done That]

shinningelectr0n wrote:

<quoted text>
My blurb about limited energy was, of course, restricted to human physiology and not the entire universe. I used to be able to metabolize like a raging bonfire. Right now, I'm lucky to flick my Bic three times in one day.
Changing priorities, to some, is seen as a tactic to out-maneuver the fates. But, gee whiz, the fates always had your every move included in your itinerary from the outset. Pull the oars out from gunrail, set them alongside and enjoy the ride. Of course, keep a strong hand on that rudder and be sure to keep the seatbelt buckled. Don't look back.

How do you use oars with out looking back?

[Katydid]

polymath257 wrote:

<quoted text>
Thank you very much Katydid. I would say that I have learned an incredible amount from your posts. The world needs more people like you also!

Thank you Mathman, you honor me and I am humbled by your kind words.

[shinningelectr0n]

Cousin Jethro wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes, Earthling advice from Satchel Page -- "Don't look back, something might be gaining on you."

Perception is reality. So, reduce your perception and reality becomes less of a threat.

[shinningelectr0n]

Done That wrote:

<quoted text>How do you use oars with out looking back?

Just using one oar removes the problem.

[shinningelectr0n]

MichiganGEL wrote:

FYI, Here are just the first three of 25 topics discussed at
http://www.toriah.com/wiki/index.php...
... All three are very relevant to this forum. In re #1, I recall more than a few sarcastic posts critical of our inverted retina as indicating a not-very-intelligent designer.
Item 2 is just one reputable scientist's opinion on Intelligent Design, but Item 3 thoroughly presents the scientific argument for Irreducible Complexity in the case of the Eukaryotic cell.
Quote:
1 Inverted retina -- Another Darwinian icon bites the dust (PNAS May 2007)
"[A] recent article in PNAS now indicates that there is a sophisticated network of high-performance optical fibers that funnels light into the photoreceptors without any loss. Concerning his research in this area, Andreas Reichenbach remarks (all emphases added),..."
2 Physicist Freeman Dyson (Princeton)-- Scientist are unwise to dismiss intelligent design (March 2007)
"The more I examine the universe and the details of its architecture, the more evidence I find that the universe in some sense must have known we were coming." [Freeman Dyson, Disturbing the Universe, New York: Harper & Row, 1979, p. 250]
3 Eukaryotic cell irreducibly complex - It's Origin one of the greatest Enigmas (Nature & Science April 2007)
"The Darwinian hope was always that mechanisms would be found to show how prokaryotes could evolve into eukaryotes. However, absolutely no links between the two have been found -- not in the fossil record and not by comparing their structures.
Lynn Margulis and Karlene Schwartz approvingly quote Stanier et. al.:
"this basic divergence in cellular structure which separates the bacteria and the blue green algae from all other cellular organisms, probably represents the greatest single evolutionary discontinuity to be found in the present-day world".
[Lynn Margulis and Karlene V. Schwartz, Five Kingdoms: An Illustrated Guide to the Phyla of Life on Earth,...]

Does this all mean that the scientific community is without a united front? No solid consensus? Horrors! We are descending into intellectual anarchy. It's every man for himself from here on out.

Just kidding. We still have a healthy atmosphere of constructive criticism. It is difficult to view both sides of a coin simultaneously. It takes teamwork.

[lily of the Valley]

It’s all part of the intelligent design, and it would be kind of fun watching bush shitting and pissing in his pants as the world came to an end.

[Done That]

shinningelectr0n wrote:

<quoted text>
Just using one oar removes the problem.

Like a one legged duck you swim in a circle

[been there9]

Done That wrote:

<quoted text>Like a one legged duck you swim in a circle

Only if you don't switch sides.