Russia denies responsibility for Sovi...

Russia denies responsibility for Soviet 'atrocities' in Lithuania

There are 620 comments on the RIA Novosti story from Jan 12, 2011, titled Russia denies responsibility for Soviet 'atrocities' in Lithuania. In it, RIA Novosti reports that:

Russia is not responsible for the alleged Soviet "atrocities" in Lithuania in 1991 and suggests leaving the past to be studied and judged by historians, the Russian Embassy in Lithuanian said on Wednesday.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at RIA Novosti.

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tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#625 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>just for example - "Walter Rauff, a senior SD officer, friend of Dulles and once head of the SD in Milan (after a tour in Tunisia as head of the SD there during Rommel's campaign in Africa.)...
Rauff worked for the CIA, lived unmolested and well protected by the CIA, in South America" .
...
and it is on the first page of putting in google "ex-sd working..."
That is an example of former nazi individuals after WWII "working" outside of Germany and outside of the state organisations of Germany.

One needs to differentiate between organisations and individuals.
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
...let me explain - its like you are for decriminalisation of our world (good) and you say -"ALL criminals in prisons should be hanged. period."
- I read it and start to say :"stop, stop, stop...there are those in prisons who are teens, thiefs, simply people who accidentally killed somebdy in car crash etc...- you should not be so indiscreminate" - and you respond - ;"Arrr, you Russians always protect criminals !" -that is a formular of all conversations with you if to simplify it and to look undeneath of it...
Your example is ill-construed.
The main problem is quite the opposite - that not all soviet criminals are in prison.
But you are right that Russians (at least Kremlin gremlins) DO protect soviet criminals. And they protect post-soviet criminals as well.
Should all criminals be trialed? Absolutely.

Another problem with your ill-contrued example is that you concentrated on the individual guilt and neglected the criminality of organisations. I have always made a distinction between the two.

Your attempt at painting me into a corner with your ill-construed example is really pathetic of you.
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
Tarmo, no me, nor any other Russian (exept for unlol maybe)are in love with KGB, NKVD etc..., but your rediculous attempt to equate FSB to NKVD
I am not equating on a fine scale. I am pointing out continuity between the two. My equating is on the scale of 'criminal'/'not criminal'- NKVD and FSB are both criminal through continuity. And both are criminal through their activities, but not equally criminal based on their activities.
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
...and your childish "I want" regarding "DISMANTLE" and "put a stamp" BECAUSE IT IS THE SAME AS NKVD and GESTAPO - it will always result in people's saying, "come on, you are a bit out of reality, dude" - and then people will try to prove that you are wrong and give you examples and it will look like whitewashing NKVD - even those who don't like KGB of 1970-80-s but are reasonable people would HAVE TO give you examples that KGB in 1970-90-s was not that bad as NKVD of Stalin's times and waaaaaaay better then Gestapo.
You are accusing me of a comparison that I have not made.
I have not compared 1930-40s Gestapo with the KGB of 1970-90s.
I have compared the imaginary 1970-90s Gestapo with the real KGB of 1970-90s. Pretty childish of you, I might add.
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
I am pointing out that your mother was a member of Young Communist League not because I want to insult you, but in attempt to give you opportunity to feel with your own skin that your exagerations and extrapolations ARE STUPID.
You are only making a fool out of yourself.
You are accusing me of claims I have not made.
Read above.
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
You may post whatever you want - I will not respond anymore
because we have a saying in Russia "esli chelovek durak, to eto nadolgo" (that means that "if you a fool, tarmo,then it is forewer"- and any discussion with you is useless.
You should REALLY try self-reflection.
Oh, I forgot, you DO practice self-reflection and then accuse others of your own wrongdoings - a common soviet/derzhavist technique.
Thumbs up!
Keep up the good work!
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#626 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>you are right - even Beria himself (chief of NKVD-KGB of Stalin's times)and all seven his deputies in ranks of generals (Kobulov,Dekanozov etc...) were all executed by Khrushchev for unlawfull repressions against innocent people, others were ousted from work - it was TOTAL reorganisation -by the way even SD chief Shelenberg was not executed by allies, do you know that?,Gestapo chief Muller too escaped etc...In USSR those chiefs of NKVD were executed - but tarmo does not need facts - he has his agenda (also he is a fool)
Hmmm again shows a total lack of distinction between individuals and organisations. And he somehow suggests that I would approve nazi criminals escaping judgement.

I just want that ALL criminals of the soviet and nazi criminal regimes be judged.

Equal treatment of both nazi and soviet criminal regimes - now the goal of EU as well.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#627 Feb 12, 2011
Lukashenko is Dr Phil wrote:
<quoted text>
How ever there is no such thing as collective guilt.
Here we go again.
Without the notion of a collective guilt, one could not possibly judge Gestapo or SS or NKVD or the Soviet Communist Party as criminal organisations.

There has to be a notion of a collective guilt for as long as there are supra-individual subjects (organisations, state governments).

Claiming that "there is no such thing as collective guilt" is principally the same as to claim that "there is no collective".
hmmmm

Saint Petersburg, Russia

#628 Feb 12, 2011
tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
That is an example of former nazi individuals after WWII "working" outside of Germany and outside of the state organisations of Germany.
One needs to differentiate between organisations and individuals.
<quoted text>
Your example is ill-construed.
The main problem is quite the opposite - that not all soviet criminals are in prison.
But you are right that Russians (at least Kremlin gremlins) DO protect soviet criminals. And they protect post-soviet criminals as well.
Should all criminals be trialed? Absolutely.
Another problem with your ill-contrued example is that you concentrated on the individual guilt and neglected the criminality of organisations. I have always made a distinction between the two.
Your attempt at painting me into a corner with your ill-construed example is really pathetic of you.
<quoted text>
I am not equating on a fine scale. I am pointing out continuity between the two. My equating is on the scale of 'criminal'/'not criminal'- NKVD and FSB are both criminal through continuity. And both are criminal through their activities, but not equally criminal based on their activities.
<quoted text>
You are accusing me of a comparison that I have not made.
I have not compared 1930-40s Gestapo with the KGB of 1970-90s.
I have compared the imaginary 1970-90s Gestapo with the real KGB of 1970-90s. Pretty childish of you, I might add.
<quoted text>
You are only making a fool out of yourself.
You are accusing me of claims I have not made.
Read above.
<quoted text>
You should REALLY try self-reflection.
Oh, I forgot, you DO practice self-reflection and then accuse others of your own wrongdoings - a common soviet/derzhavist technique.
Thumbs up!
Keep up the good work!
you wrote : ""That is an example of former nazi individuals after WWII "working" outside of Germany and outside of the state organisations of Germany."

---------

well, check Chancelor Kiesinger's biography (Chancelor from 1966 to 1969)- he was official in nazy Foreign ministry and in Goebbels Propaganda ministry....

then ,look about BND origins- there is a link in my post - it is clearly stated that Gestapo officers were employed there - shall I repost you a link?

You are on the loosing side on that topic, tarmo - you only humiliate yourselve further...Also you are not interesting collocutor, so excuse me for not responding to you anymore...
hmmmm

Saint Petersburg, Russia

#629 Feb 12, 2011
tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
Here we go again.
Without the notion of a collective guilt, one could not possibly judge Gestapo or SS or NKVD or the Soviet Communist Party as criminal organisations.
There has to be a notion of a collective guilt for as long as there are supra-individual subjects (organisations, state governments).
Claiming that "there is no such thing as collective guilt" is principally the same as to claim that "there is no collective".
again- then your mother should be put on trial - she was a member of communist organisation. Or you consider wether she personally was responsible for communist crimes - and then you deny collective guilt, or if you supportidea of collective guilt, go puyt her on Trial...LOL !- its hard for you to be consistent , tarmo, right?
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#630 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
Once the matter of SS and SD officers serving in BND was mentioned in previous posts - here is a quotation from Wikipedia about it with direct link :
"The predecessor of the BND is the German eastern military intelligence agency during WWII, the Abteilung Fremde Heere Ost or FHO Section in the General Staff, led by Wehrmacht Major General Reinhard Gehlen. Its main purpose was to collect information on the Red Army. In 1946 Gehlen set up an intelligence agency informally known as the Gehlen Organization or simply "The Org" and recruited, initially quite modestly, some of his former co-workers, operatives of Wilhelm Canaris' Abwehr, but he also recruited from the former Sicherheitsdienst, SS and Gestapo.[2] The organization worked almost exclusively for the CIA, which contributed funding, equipment, cars, gasoline and other materials. On 1 April 1956 the Bundesnachrichtendienst was created from the Gehlen Organization, and transferred to the West German government. Reinhard Gehlen became President of the BND and remained its head until 1968."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesnachrichte...
So?
Were the Abteilung Fremde Heere Ost or Abwehr judged as criminal organisations in Nuremburg? And if not, then should they have been judged as criminal?

You are constantly trying to ignore that investigating soviet crimes and judging soviet criminals is also necessary to better judge over nazi crimes and US crimes and GB crimes, etc.

Let me offer another example how criminal regimes of different countries work together:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abwehr

/*But even though he tried to maintain an at least cordial relationship with them, the antagonism between the Abwehr and the SS did not stop with Canaris at the helm.

It came to a head in 1937 when Adolf Hitler decided to help Joseph Stalin in the latter's purge against the Soviet military.[citation needed] Hitler ordered that the German Army staff should be kept in the dark about Stalin's intentions, for fear that they would warn their Soviet counterparts. Accordingly, special SS teams, accompanied by burglary experts from the criminal police, broke into the secret files of the General Staff and the Abwehr and removed documents related to German-Soviet collaboration. To conceal the thefts, fires were started at the break-ins, which included Abwehr headquarters.[citation needed]*/
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#631 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
Your example about Germany is very good because it proves my point - you write that Germany was very German - thats true
That is not quite so.
Hitler was an austrian with some jewish genes in him.
Alfred Rosenberg was a baltic german from Estonia, having roots from French protestants huguenots.
I am sure there are countless other such examples.

What you try to say is that their mentality was german/aryan, just as the mentality of soviets were of a "soviet people".
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
...and there was no inner resistence of Germans to nazi
Wrong again.
Germans made several assassination attempts at Hitler.
There were inner resistance.
Let's look at the Abwehr and Canaris again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abwehr#Canaris_a...

/* During his reorganisaton, Canaris took care to surround himself with a hand-picked staff, notably his second-in-command, Hans Oster and Erwin von Lahousen, Section II Chief. All but one were not members of the Nazi party. The exception was Rudolf Bamler, who was appointed as chief of Section III by Canaris to gain the trust of Himmler. Canaris did make sure to keep Bamler on a short leash however, and restricted his access to operational information. Canaris had good reason to do this because unknown to the High Command and Hitler, during his reorganisation Canaris had peppered the chief operational and administrative staff of the Abwehr with men more loyal to him than to the Nazi Government. While outwardly Canaris appeared to be the model of intelligence-gathering efficiency, evidence exists that he secretly opposed, and actively worked against the wishes of his Commander in Chief. Canaris, Oster and the Chiefs of Abwehr sections I.,II., and III. were all heavily involved in what the Security Police Sicherheitsdienst were to later dub "The Black Orchestra" ("Die Schwarze Kapelle" in German), a plot to overthrow the Nazi regime from the inside.[5] Canaris's operational decisions, his choice of appointments and their decisions, and crucially for the Third Reich- the input each plotter had into Abwehr operations, are all tainted by these secret dealings.*/
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
(no 5 years of civilwar as in Russia with millions sacrificing lifes to oppose the reds
Russia was an empire, thus much of the Russian "civil war" was against national entities within the former Russian Empire.

Germany at 1933 was not an empire, if we neglect Prussia for a moment. A civil war a la Russia would have had Germany fighting against France, Italy, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Netherlands, Denmark, Baltics, etc.
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
no mass imprisonement of ethnic germans (as compared to Russians in Gulag)
There was that.
You simply prefer to ignore it.
Of course, the mass amassed by soviets outnumbered the mass amassed by nazis. Are you trying to suggest here that the soviet regime was more evil than the nazi regime? Would you prefer to judge soviet regime as more criminal than the nazi regime?
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
no ethnicities in leadership (as compared to Soviet leadership with all the Georgians, Jews, latvians, Ukrainians - you name those -in Politburo and even on the highest posts))
There were only soviet people in the soviet leadership.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#632 Feb 12, 2011
Lukashenko is Dr Phil wrote:
<quoted text>
You balts always whine and cry about the baltic german rule of your country yet you say you hate Lenin and the bolsheviks who ended that rule.
You are mistaken in several accounts.

The baltic german rule was ended first by the February revolution, then by the bolshevik October revolution and then by estonian and latvian nations using their self-determination rights. It was a process.
Lukashenko is Dr Phil wrote:
<quoted text>
Landreform where Estonian and Latvian state took the baltic german property was nothing more than pure bolshevik style socialism.
You are mistaken again.
Soviet nationalisation of land was permanent.
In Estonia and Latvia, former baltic german landowners were later allowed to buy back their mansions, but usually not the land which was given to peasants. Serfdom is so medievil and so unfinnic, I am surprised that a finn would support that. If you are fond of old baltic german mansions, there are a dozen or so such mansions in sale in Estonia right now.
hmmmm

Saint Petersburg, Russia

#633 Feb 12, 2011
tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
So?
Were the Abteilung Fremde Heere Ost or Abwehr judged as criminal organisations in Nuremburg?/
but I am saying about the following - can you read the link?

"In 1946 Gehlen set up an intelligence agency informally known as the Gehlen Organization or simply "The Org" and recruited, initially quite modestly, some of his former co-workers, operatives of Wilhelm Canaris' Abwehr, but he also recruited from the former Sicherheitsdienst, SS and Gestapo.[2].... On 1 April 1956 the Bundesnachrichtendienst was created from the Gehlen Organization, and transferred to the West German government. Reinhard Gehlen became President of the BND and remained its head until 1968."

it is in response to your point that BND had no succession from Gestapo BECAUSE Gestapo people didn't work there. They (Gestapo people) did work in BND (as proved by the link) despite BND is not Gestapo. The same is the fact that NKVD people worked in KGB and KGB people worked in FSB doesn't mean that FSB is legal inheritor or succession organisation (how do you call it?) of NKVD and KGB. Thus your point proved wrong.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#634 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>again- then your mother should be put on trial - she was a member of communist organisation.
You are mistaken.
Collective guilt does not automatically carry over to an individual of that collective. But it might limit her choices for government jobs in the future, if there was a decision to keep members of that organisation out of such jobs.

Your smear campaign is REALLY pathetic.
And you are AGAIN failing to make the distinction between organisations and individuals. Are you completely retarded?

And you have a nerve to question the consistency of my statements??? Even after you promised not to answer me again?
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#635 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>you wrote : ""That is an example of former nazi individuals after WWII "working" outside of Germany and outside of the state organisations of Germany."
---------
well, check Chancelor Kiesinger's biography (Chancelor from 1966 to 1969)- he was official in nazy Foreign ministry and in Goebbels Propaganda ministry....
then ,look about BND origins- there is a link in my post - it is clearly stated that Gestapo officers were employed there - shall I repost you a link?
Read my previous answers.
Former nazi officers were often recruited again in order to stand against soviet criminals.
If we were to properly judge soviet crimes then it would be much easier to judge related crimes of nazis, yankees, brits and others.

Anyway, you have not given any evidence yet that any nazi organisation judged as criminal in Nuremburg has kept its organisation intact after WWII for a considerable amount of time.

Hmmm, you are on the loosing side on that topic, you only humiliate yourself further.
hmmmm

Saint Petersburg, Russia

#636 Feb 12, 2011
tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>

There were only soviet people in the soviet leadership.
this above is the only point I can agree - it proves your inconsistency- you say that those were Soviets who masterminded everything in USSR, but you try to accuse exclusivelly Russians.No WAY - if you want to blame Soviets - blame all of them - that is Soviet Russians, Soviet Ukrainians, Soviet Georgians, Soviet Armenians, Soviet Tatars, Soviet Latvians, Soviet Estonians, Soviet Uzbecks, Soviet Bealrussians, etc.etc.etc....That is the only point I am trying to make on this thread.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#637 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
but I am saying about the following - can you read the link?
"In 1946 Gehlen set up an intelligence agency informally known as the Gehlen Organization or simply "The Org" and recruited, initially quite modestly, some of his former co-workers, operatives of Wilhelm Canaris' Abwehr, but he also recruited from the former Sicherheitsdienst, SS and Gestapo.[2].... On 1 April 1956 the Bundesnachrichtendienst was created from the Gehlen Organization, and transferred to the West German government. Reinhard Gehlen became President of the BND and remained its head until 1968."
it is in response to your point that BND had no succession from Gestapo BECAUSE Gestapo people didn't work there.
That was not my point.
Read my posts again.
And think.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#638 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
this above is the only point I can agree - it proves your inconsistency- you say that those were Soviets who masterminded everything in USSR, but you try to accuse exclusivelly Russians.
It only proves your stupidity.
Contemporary russians (i.e. Kremlin gremlins) are accused mainly because they do not seriously investigate soviet crimes and because they protect possible soviet criminals. And BECAUSE of the behavior of Kremlin gremlins, one can say that like soviets were to become an outer matrjoshka for russians, that contemporary russians are just an inner matrjoshka of the soviet people. And this is not just my own idea. Just read citations taken from RF media from here:
http://windowoneurasia.blogspot.com/
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
No WAY - if you want to blame Soviets - blame all of them - that is Soviet Russians, Soviet Ukrainians, Soviet Georgians, Soviet Armenians, Soviet Tatars, Soviet Latvians, Soviet Estonians, Soviet Uzbecks, Soviet Bealrussians, etc.etc.etc....That is the only point I am trying to make on this thread.
Well, Estonians have
www.historycommission.ee

What does Russia have?
hmmmm

Saint Petersburg, Russia

#639 Feb 12, 2011
tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>
Read my previous answers.
Former nazi officers were often recruited again in order to stand against soviet criminals.
If we were to properly judge soviet crimes then it would be much easier to judge related crimes of nazis, yankees, brits and others.
Anyway, you have not given any evidence yet that any nazi organisation judged as criminal in Nuremburg has kept its organisation intact after WWII for a considerable amount of time.
Hmmm, you are on the loosing side on that topic, you only humiliate yourself further.
I was not going to " give any evidence that any nazi organisation judged as criminal in Nuremburg has kept its organisation intact after WWII" - looks like you are unable to comprehend my point still - I was saying that the fact of officers of those criminal organisations working for new organisations in post war Germany didn't make post-war German organisations of 1950-60-s etc as successors of those criminal organisations. It was your argument regarding FSB as you claimes that once KGB people work there it is direct successor of KGB - no way .

Also let me remind you that there were no Soviet organisations so far which have been judjed as criminal in legal terms - we are not talking about opinions of individual people here, but about Internationqal court verdict. I maybe too consider NKVD to be criminal organisation, but we are talking about particular topic -that is criteria of what is succession regarding organisations.
hmmmm

Saint Petersburg, Russia

#640 Feb 12, 2011
tarmo wrote:
<quoted text>

And you have a nerve to question the consistency of my statements??? Even after you promised not to answer me again?
Ha ! And you have no nerve to face an opponent? OK, tarmo, if you are so desperate, I'll stick to my promise - be free to post any bs. without my responce for today, relax -I go to sleep.
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#641 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>I was not going to " give any evidence that any nazi organisation judged as criminal in Nuremburg has kept its organisation intact after WWII" - looks like you are unable to comprehend my point still - I was saying that the fact of officers of those criminal organisations working for new organisations in post war Germany didn't make post-war German organisations of 1950-60-s etc as successors of those criminal organisations.
I would agree based on your evidence so far.
There was no organisational continuity in Germany.
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
It was your argument regarding FSB as you claimes that once KGB people work there it is direct successor of KGB - no way .
You are denying the organisational continuity of KGB/FSB.
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
Also let me remind you that there were no Soviet organisations so far which have been judjed as criminal in legal terms
In Russia only.
The situation in other former SSR-s is very different from Russia in this respect.

Equal treatment of both nazi and soviet criminal regimes - now the goal of EU as well.
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
- we are not talking about opinions of individual people here, but about Internationqal court verdict.
Judgements can be made at national, confederal, federal as well as international levels.
Annie

UK

#642 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
Also let me remind you that there were no Soviet organisations so far which have been judjed as criminal in legal terms - we are not talking about opinions of individual people here, but about Internationqal court verdict. I maybe too consider NKVD to be criminal organisation, but we are talking about particular topic -that is criteria of what is succession regarding organisations.
has there been a trial about this? I must have missed it...
Annie

UK

#643 Feb 12, 2011
hmmmm wrote:
<quoted text>
Ha ! And you have no nerve to face an opponent? OK, tarmo, if you are so desperate, I'll stick to my promise - be free to post any bs. without my responce for today, relax -I go to sleep.
good idea! sleep well little one :)
hmmmm

Saint Petersburg, Russia

#644 Feb 13, 2011
Annie wrote:
<quoted text>
has there been a trial about this? I must have missed it...
there was not , so you haven't missed it - you missed the whole of your life though, which should be more of your concern...

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