What Divides Catholics and Protestants?

What Divides Catholics and Protestants?

There are 84619 comments on the www.christianpost.com story from Apr 19, 2008, titled What Divides Catholics and Protestants?. In it, www.christianpost.com reports that:

As Pope Benedict XVI continues with his highly publicized visit to the United States, some may wonder what the major differences are between Catholicism and Protestantism - the two main Christian bodies in the ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.christianpost.com.

ITB

Philadelphia, PA

#83497 Sep 20, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
Logical fallacy, argument from ignorance. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Jesus addressed the situations he could readily see around him. If two people had been caught in the very commission of a homosexual act and brought to Jesus. I am sure he would have addressed it.
That's a big assumption. And how do you know how He would have addressed it? He sided with the adulteress when Scripture clearly speaks out against adultery. He didn't condemn her, he saved her from those who wanted to stone her.

Why didn't Jesus make a point of addressing homosexuality in person? Since God is all knowing, then He would known that this would become an issue. So, why not have it addressed clearly by Jesus so there could be no question? There are accounts of Jesus dealing with so many other issues, why not homosexuality? If it was as prevalent, and an "abomination", as Scripture makes it out to be, then how didn't Jesus come across a homosexual and address the situation personally?
ITB

Philadelphia, PA

#83498 Sep 20, 2012
Nijoni wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not following you as Ox was not using his own words. Just posting doctrine.
As far as attitude and charity, have you ever witnessed to a Killer or other sinner?
Have you ever witnessed to a Gay even? Talk about attitude and hate. No matter how softly and filled with charity one puts it.
Do you even believe in witnessing or are you so concerned you may hurt someones feelings that you think this more important than the sword of truth? Not following you.
There is charity in sharing Scripture. As well as Courage involved. Personally, I have never known a gay that wanted the gospel or truth. Not in it's pure form.
They then ask where Christ said this and that and so try to invalidate the rest of the Bible. Are you only beliveing the red words of CHrist in yours or do you believe in the entire book as God's word?
This could be the MORE important issue. Is your heart blinded with Political Correctness?
Should we also handhold Pedos and Murderers? Walk on eggshells there also? I think not. I think Confronting is more important the Comforting one who embraces sin. Christ did not sugarcoat his words. Look how he talked to the Pharisees.
It would not have mattered if he showered them in goo and love as their sins were way more important to them. However, He Confronted.
ANd took the critisim thereof.
The Sword of Truth is a double edge.
"Should we also handhold Pedos and Murderers? Walk on eggshells there also?" Using this as any kind of PC reasoning about homosexuality is so ridiculous, I find it hard to keep from shaking my head at the stupidity and ignorance. But, having read enough of your posts, I can believe you'd equate homosexuality with "pedos and murderers".

You do know that in the case of a "pedo and murderer" there are victims? In the case of the "pedo" a child/children, and their loved ones, are the victims. In the case of a murderer, whoever they kill, and those loved ones affected by the loss, are the victims.

In the case of a homosexual loving another homosexual, where is the VICTIM? Does wanting to be able to live their lives with the same rights and privileges a straight couple enjoys victimize others?

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#83499 Sep 20, 2012
ITB wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL...you sound as if you're surprised that, even though they were gay, they were good enough citizens to call the police when your apartment was burglarized. Like, just because someone is gay, they must not have the same standards as someone who is straight. They are human beings who live in society, go to work, pay taxes, want to keep their family and friends safe, are responsible, etc. just like straight human beings. They are not sub-humans. Amazing!!
BTW-They were correct, it's not all about sex, just like straight relationships are not all about sex.
Please refrain from putting words in my mouth? My relationship with my neighbors was such that they looked out for their neighbor, me, and I would have done the same for them. Our religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, political party affiliation, etc did not matter. I'll leave you to discern my point perhaps you can do so without dumping your assumptions/presuppsitions on me. Just a hint I made a distinction between two groups.
Patriot

Mount Juliet, TN

#83500 Sep 20, 2012
Reality wrote:
<quoted text>Please do quote yer bible, where jesus speaks against homosexuality.
The apostle Paul speaking through inspiration of the Holy Spirit condems it in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it declares homosexuals and other folks who will not enter in, Romans 1:24-28 declares God gave them over to a reprobate mind. He elsewhere condemns it but these 2 passages suffice.
Jaimie

Madison, WI

#83501 Sep 20, 2012
Nijoni wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not following you as Ox was not using his own words. Just posting doctrine.
As far as attitude and charity, have you ever witnessed to a Killer or other sinner?
Have you ever witnessed to a Gay even? Talk about attitude and hate. No matter how softly and filled with charity one puts it.
Do you even believe in witnessing or are you so concerned you may hurt someones feelings that you think this more important than the sword of truth? Not following you.
There is charity in sharing Scripture. As well as Courage involved. Personally, I have never known a gay that wanted the gospel or truth. Not in it's pure form.
They then ask where Christ said this and that and so try to invalidate the rest of the Bible. Are you only beliveing the red words of CHrist in yours or do you believe in the entire book as God's word?
This could be the MORE important issue. Is your heart blinded with Political Correctness?
Should we also handhold Pedos and Murderers? Walk on eggshells there also? I think not. I think Confronting is more important the Comforting one who embraces sin. Christ did not sugarcoat his words. Look how he talked to the Pharisees.
It would not have mattered if he showered them in goo and love as their sins were way more important to them. However, He Confronted.
ANd took the critisim thereof.
The Sword of Truth is a double edge.
Under which brotherhood or kingdom rule. God is the English Language translation for "King" and the only people that can be King have to possess a Genie or it is a impossibility to be King.

I was the only female in our brotherhood, and it was a dagger, not disimilar looking then a gloden double sanked letter opener. Made for me by the FEMALE master Mason and I had her issolated and cursed as a result of her beauty for her to witness, rape murder and other, before I restored her health to her. Then she knew so much and chose just not to, and paid a favorite from time to time. But not in her dwelling, only I knew where my friend lived.
Jaimie

Madison, WI

#83502 Sep 20, 2012
Golden snake, well maybe it did sink to, could be in the belly of a giant clam turd and used as a crytstal pearl gazer. Or in the center of a rock, it is turd of some species anyway as all dirt. But from which species poop so large?

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#83503 Sep 20, 2012
ITB wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a big assumption. And how do you know how He would have addressed it? He sided with the adulteress when Scripture clearly speaks out against adultery. He didn't condemn her, he saved her from those who wanted to stone her.
So you are familiar with that story. My assumption was that Jesus would act with the same compassion, understanding, etc. in both cases. You may note that Jesus did not tell the adulteress "Go and keep on sinning."
Why didn't Jesus make a point of addressing homosexuality in person? Since God is all knowing, then He would known that this would become an issue. So, why not have it addressed clearly by Jesus so there could be no question?
Why would Jesus tell 1st century Jews, "Years from now there will be a problem with "arsenokoites," now here is how they are to deal with it."
There are accounts of Jesus dealing with so many other issues, why not homosexuality? If it was as prevalent, and an "abomination", as Scripture makes it out to be, then how didn't Jesus come across a homosexual and address the situation personally?
Homosexuality was proscribed by God in Lev 18:23, the Jews knew that. What are the chances of Jesus, or anyone else, seeing two homosexuals having sex as he walked in the streets and marketplaces, etc?
ITB

Philadelphia, PA

#83504 Sep 20, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
Please refrain from putting words in my mouth? My relationship with my neighbors was such that they looked out for their neighbor, me, and I would have done the same for them. Our religion, race, gender, sexual orientation, political party affiliation, etc did not matter. I'll leave you to discern my point perhaps you can do so without dumping your assumptions/presuppsitions on me. Just a hint I made a distinction between two groups.
"Two gay men lived in the townhouse apt. next door and we got along great. They even called the police when my apt. was burglarized while I was away." They "even" called the police...like why wouldn't they? Just the fact that you had to point that out, shows your truth. Sounds like...I'm not a racist, I have a black friend...lol

Why wouldn't you have done the same for them? They were your neighbors.

Since: Aug 08

Somewhere in Ireland

#83505 Sep 20, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>

..........Homosexuality was proscribed by God in Lev 18:23, the Jews knew that. What are the chances of Jesus, or anyone else, seeing two homosexuals having sex as he walked in the streets and marketplaces, etc?
Your last paragraph actually makes a good point. When have you ever seen two homosexuals having sex, anywhere, never mind the street or marketplace? I know I haven't and I am willing to bet that most heterosexuals never have either, so why all the fuss about something you never see? What consenting adults do of a sexual nature in private, be they heterosexual or homosexual, does not in any way impact on my life, so I don't understand why it is such a big deal to some people.
ITB

Philadelphia, PA

#83506 Sep 20, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
So you are familiar with that story. My assumption was that Jesus would act with the same compassion, understanding, etc. in both cases. You may note that Jesus did not tell the adulteress "Go and keep on sinning."
<quoted text>
Why would Jesus tell 1st century Jews, "Years from now there will be a problem with "arsenokoites," now here is how they are to deal with it."
<quoted text>
Homosexuality was proscribed by God in Lev 18:23, the Jews knew that. What are the chances of Jesus, or anyone else, seeing two homosexuals having sex as he walked in the streets and marketplaces, etc?
Why not? If the Bible alone is ALL the teaching and ALL you need to know, then why wouldn't He have addressed it for the salvation of those who are homosexual? Did He not care about that portion of His people? It's obvious they existed back then.

About the same chances as someone being caught doing something else listed in Lev. How was the adulteress found? Jesus didn't catch her in the act. So what were the chances of seeing adulterers having sex as He walked in the streets and marketplaces, etc.?

BTW-Adultery is a sin AGAINST another, so why would Jesus tell her to go and do it again?
Native from Pa

New Holland, PA

#83507 Sep 20, 2012
ITB
Jesus did NOT tell her to go and do it again in fact he said GO AND SIN NO MORE.
ITB wrote:
<quoted text>
Why not? If the Bible alone is ALL the teaching and ALL you need to know, then why wouldn't He have addressed it for the salvation of those who are homosexual? Did He not care about that portion of His people? It's obvious they existed back then.
About the same chances as someone being caught doing something else listed in Lev. How was the adulteress found? Jesus didn't catch her in the act. So what were the chances of seeing adulterers having sex as He walked in the streets and marketplaces, etc.?
BTW-Adultery is a sin AGAINST another, so why would Jesus tell her to go and do it again?

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#83508 Sep 20, 2012
ITB wrote:
<quoted text>
"Two gay men lived in the townhouse apt. next door and we got along great. They even called the police when my apt. was burglarized while I was away." They "even" called the police...like why wouldn't they? Just the fact that you had to point that out, shows your truth. Sounds like...I'm not a racist, I have a black friend...lol
You omitted half my post making your quote out-of-context. Want to try a third time without dumping your assumptions/presuppositions on me?
Why wouldn't you have done the same for them? They were your neighbors.
Did you not read what I said?

“God Loves Ilks!”

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#83509 Sep 20, 2012
Patriot wrote:
<quoted text>The apostle Paul speaking through inspiration of the Holy Spirit condems it in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 it declares homosexuals and other folks who will not enter in, Romans 1:24-28 declares God gave them over to a reprobate mind. He elsewhere condemns it but these 2 passages suffice.
Why don't you look up the original wording of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10?

“God Loves Ilks!”

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#83510 Sep 20, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
So you are familiar with that story. My assumption was that Jesus would act with the same compassion, understanding, etc. in both cases. You may note that Jesus did not tell the adulteress "Go and keep on sinning."
<quoted text>
Why would Jesus tell 1st century Jews, "Years from now there will be a problem with "arsenokoites," now here is how they are to deal with it."
<quoted text>
Homosexuality was proscribed by God in Lev 18:23, the Jews knew that. What are the chances of Jesus, or anyone else, seeing two homosexuals having sex as he walked in the streets and marketplaces, etc?
A HETEROSEXUAL JEWISH RABBI LOOKS AT THE BIBLE'S VIEWPOINT ON HOMOSEXUALITY

HEALING THE SO-CALLED "TEXTS OF TERROR" - A REINTERPRETATION OF THE SUPPOSED PROHIBITION ON HOMOSEXUALITY IN THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES

AS THERE IS NO REASON, BIBLICAL, ETHICAL NOR MORAL, TO CONTINUE TO DENY ANY CIVIL RIGHTS TO GAYS AND LESBIANS, ESPECIALLY IN TODAY'S WORLD. ALL HONORABLE PEOPLE SHOULD STAND IN SUPPORT OF GRANTING EQUALITY OF ALL LEGAL AND CIVIL RIGHTS TO GAYS AND LESBIANS.

As a result of his early teaching to continually wrestle with the Sacred texts and to seek to bring the texts into relevence in the modern world, since 1994, Rabbi Steinberg-Caudill has been seriously involved in a compassionate study of the so-called "anti-homosexual" verses found in the Book of Leviticus. He has searched extensively in the Hebrew Scriptures, in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in both the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds, and in other Jewish historical writings.

With the help of not only his own Jewish sources, but also those of Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox and Latin Rite linguists and scholars, plus an LDS (Mormon) Biblical Languages student at Emory University, Rabbi Gershon Steinberg-Caudill has also been able to study original translations of the Hebrew, Greek and Latin texts.

This serious study has also involved reviewing the various Biblical manuscripts and translations, Talmudic responsa texts and other materials of a collateral nature to the subject matter being studied; i. e. history, anthropology, archaeology, philology, etymology, etc. It has required, often times, an attempt to reconstruct the ancient mindset of the pre-Babylonian conquest (586 BCE) Israelite people.

As a result of this serious research, Rabbi Steinberg-Caudill is completely convinced that THE ORIGINAL HEBREW TEXTS OF THE TORAH (the Hebrew Chumash - the Five Books of Moses) HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO SAY CONCERNING HOMOSEXUALITY AS WE UNDERSTAND THE TERM "HOMOSEXUALITY" TO MEAN IN TODAYS WORLD!
http://home.earthlink.net/~ecorebbe/id18.html

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#83511 Sep 20, 2012
Nettiebelle wrote:
<quoted text>Why don't you look up the original wording of 1 Corinthians 6:9-10?
The word is "arsenokoites!" It was used in the LXX to translate a man lying with man as with a woman. The early church, ECF, interpreted arsenokoités as “sodomy,”“filth of sodomy,” lawless lust," “lust,”“impurity,”“works of the flesh,”“carnal,”“lawless intercourse,”“shameless,”“burn ing with insane love for boys,”“impure love of boys,”“licentiousness,”“co-hab itors with males,”“lusters after mankind”“infamous and impure intercourse, intercourse with his own child, or relative, or brother."

“God Loves Ilks!”

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#83513 Sep 20, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
The word is "arsenokoites!"
In the discussion below, we begin with a statement on homosexuality written by the foremost modern authority on the Book of Leviticus, Rabbi Jacob Milgrom. Following that very interesting statement, will be added the opinions and viewpoints of Rabbi Steinberg-Caudill, followed by the opinion of his teacher and Rav, Rabbi Gershon Winkler. That opinion is then followed with an article by Rabbi Michael Lerner.
That we may disagree on minor issues related to this very important subject is to be expected. In fact, Judaism encourages sincere dispute and amicable dialogue. It is our obligation as Jews to question and wrestle with the use of these Torah texts in the continued discrimination of gays and lesbians. And, it is most important to see where we agree, not so much where we disagree.
The four Bible scholars and teachers quoted below have each come to a slightly different conclusion about whether homosexuality is actually prohibited in the text and time period of the Torah.
* Rabbi Jacob Milgrom says that, YES, the Bible prohibits homosexual behavior. However, only in the land of Israel and only for males, and, possibly, only in certain interfamily relationships.
* Rabbi Gershon Steinberg-Caudill believes that the so-called "homosexual" act in the Bible that is prohibited is actually an act of HETEROSEXUAL SUBSTITUTION of a male in place of a female by a heterosexual male, and, possibly, may even need to be done in an idolatrous worship scenario.
Rabbi Steinberg-Caudill posits that even if Moses taught that God did command against homosexuality in the Torah (which Rabbi Steinberg-Caudill does not believe that God did), that command, like other commandments that Moses claimed as God given Torah commands, such as the command to kill the "stubborn and rebellious" son (Deuteronomy 21: 18-21), the rabbis negated totally a century after the beginning of the Christian era. The Talmudic rabbis declared that God did not say such a command through Moses. Similarly, any vestige of a supposed Torah prohibition against homosexuality also would need to be negated for this new day and age.
Rabbi Steinberg-Caudill believes that the Hebrew word that orginally conveyed the concept of what we today refer to as "homosexual" is the word &#1505;&#1512;&#14 97;&#1505; (saris), commonly translated "eunuch".
Simply put, homosexuality is defined as a man desiring another man for his sexual partner. In ancient times, a eunuch was chosen to guard the king's harem. The eunuch could be trusted to guard a king's harem, often because he had been castrated and could not produce offspring.
But, the question is raised, did the king just not want other men producing offspring with his wives, or did he really want a guard that did not desire to have sex with the king's wives? It is my contention that what the English translators thought of as a EUNUCH, in many cases, was what the ancient Israelites thought of as equal to what we today would call a homosexual. Who better to guard the harem than a man who has no sexual desire for a woman?
A castrated man (the traditional eunuch) would still be capable of having the desire to have sex with the king’s wives. A eunuch for the sake of heaven is a man who believes that the Kingdom of God is coming soon and therefore if he punishes himself by vowing to refrain from all sexual contact, an act that he sees as quite pleasurable, he will help hasten the coming of the Kingdom.
http://home.earthlink.net/~ecorebbe/id18.html

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#83514 Sep 20, 2012
Nettiebelle wrote:
<quoted text>A HETEROSEXUAL JEWISH RABBI LOOKS AT THE BIBLE'S VIEWPOINT ON HOMOSEXUALITY*.*.*[EMPTY RHETORIC OMITTED*.*.*
Here is more first hand evidence from Jewish sources.

Jewish Encyclopedia - Dog

The shamelessness of the dog in regard to sexual life gave rise to the name ("dog") for the class of priests in the service of Astarte who practised sodomy ("kedeshim," called also by the Greeks &#954;&#965;&#957; &#945;&#943;&#948; &#959;&#953;, Deut. xxiii. 19 [A. V. 18]; compare ib. 18 [17] and Rev. xxii. 15; see Driver ad loc.), though as the regular name of priests attached to the temple of Ashtoret at Larnaca has been found on the monuments (see "C. I. S." i., No. 86).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/

Jewish Encyclopedia - Chastity

(e) The unnatural crimes against chastity, sodomy and pederasty, prevalent in heathendom, were strictly prohibited (Lev. xviii. 22, 23; xx. 13, 15, 16; Deut. xxvii. 21).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/

Jewish Encyclopedia - DIDACHE -

Dependence upon Jewish Custom.

A manual of instruction for proselytes, adopted from the Synagogue by early Christianity, and transformed by alteration and amplification into a Church manual.

2: "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Ex. xx. 14).(This includes: "Thou shalt not commit sodomy nor fornication.") "Thou shalt not steal" (Ex. xx. 15).... "Thou shalt not use witchcraft nor practise sorcery" (Ex. xxii. 18; Lev. xix. 26).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/

Jewish Encyclopedia - Crime

On the analogy of this Biblical case the Rabbis decide several others (see Burglary). In three cases the person on the point of committing a crime may be killed: where he pursues a neighbor in order to kill him; where he pursues a male to commit sodomy; and where he seeks to ravish a betrothed damsel; for Deut. xxii. 27 indicates the duty of all that hear her cry to help her.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/

Jewish Encyclopedia - The 613 Commandments,: 347-53.

Adultery, sodomy, etc. Lev. Xviii. 7, 14, 20, 22, 23.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/

Homosexual acts between women (lesbianism) were forbidden by the rabbis on the basis of the Biblical verse "Do not follow the ways of Egypt where you once lived, nor of Canaan, where I will be bringing you. Do not follow [any] of their customs." (Leviticus 18:3)

(A midrash, Sifra Aharei Mot 8:8-9(, states that this refers to sexual customs, and that one of those customs was the marriage of women to each other, as well as a man to a woman and to her daughter. The Talmud follows this view, forbidding lesbianism. Female homosexual behaviour, because there is no penile penetration involved, is regarded as less serious than male homosexual behaviour.

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#83515 Sep 20, 2012
[Previous post continued]

"We Can't Legitimate Homosexuality Halkhically" (USCJ Review, Spring 2004): Joel Roth Professor of Talmud at the Jewish Theological Seminary


The two verses in the book of (Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) which deal with homosexuality are really quite clear, despite the efforts of some to call their clarity into question.(Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 absolutely forbid homosexual intercourse between males. The Rabbis, in the Sifra (Aharei Mot 9:8), also understand the Torah to forbid lesbianism. The Torah’s prohibitions, let it be clear, are against actions, like male homosexual intercourse, not against fantasies or attractions.

The Torah and the Rabbis do not distinguish between types of homosexuals in any way... The Rabbis were well able to conceive of monogamous and loving relationships between members of the same sex, and I quote in my paper the texts that prove this beyond reasonable question. But their words cannot possibly be read to imply that such monogamous or loving gay relationships are in a different halakhic [Jewish legal] category than any other relationships between members of the same sex. The prohibition is clear and total.”

http://www.uscj.org/POINTRoth6331.html

Naomi Grossman, freelance journalist, states in her April 2001 article in Moment Magazine, "The Gay Orthodox Undergound":

"The Torah strictly forbids homosexual sex, and rabbis have consistently upheld that prohibition through the ages... The prohibition against homosexual sex comes from Leviticus:'Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence'(18:22). In biblical times, the punishment for violating that code was clear.'If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death -— their bloodguilt is upon them'(Leviticus 20:13). The Talmud extends the prohibition to lesbian sex [Hilchot Issurei Bi'ah 21:8]."

http://members.aol.com/gayjews/moment.html

“Call sign: Apache One Six”

Since: Mar 11

US 62 @ US 81

#83516 Sep 20, 2012
Nettiebelle wrote:
<quoted text>In the discussion below, we begin with a statement on homosexuality [*.*.* UNSUPPORTED RHETORIC OMITTED.*.*.*
Posting the swame thing over and over when it has been refuted does NOT make it true! Tried reading primary sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud instead of some guy making empty claims about what the Bible, etc. teach.

“God Loves Ilks!”

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#83517 Sep 20, 2012
Allen Richards wrote:
<quoted text>
Posting the swame thing over and over when it has been refuted does NOT make it true! Tried reading primary sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud instead of some guy making empty claims about what the Bible, etc. teach.
Oh?
What's wrong with the leading authority of the Book of Leviticus who is a Rabbi?
You got problems with that?

lol

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