Contradictions CONTRADICTIONS
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DANNO

London, UK

#1 Jan 22, 2013
Other Problems with Paul.

Manner of Worship: Jesus and Paul left contradictory legacies as to the manner in which worship should be conducted. Jesus preached as an itinerant wanderer, informally to locals he encountered in his travels. Usually these were small groups, though he did encounter the occasional large crowd. Jesus always prayed privately, and taught his followers to do the same. In fact, he specifically prohibited public prayer and public displays of worship (Matt. 6:1-18). The fact that he belabored this point so thoroughly in his Sermon on the Mount, his first and greatest public teaching, almost suggest a premonition that others would follow to undermine and contradict him. Jesus did not organize any great church. He led a small, itinerant band of traveling wanderers from town to town. The closest he came to establishing any kind of authority was in Matt. 16:18, when he designated an itinerant fisherman named Simon to become "Peter" the "rock" upon which his church would be founded. Paul, in contrast, organized a great system of churches. The story of Acts is the story of Paul traveling throughout the known world, establishing great churches. His epistles, which comprise the greatest single portion of the New Testament, about a third of it, were written to maintain administrative control of this great ecclesiastical network and to standardize its doctrines, not based on the teachings of Jesus, but on his own contradictory theology.

As with so many other issues, today's modern evangelical Christians fight for their right to expropriate public facilities for their worship and offer great churches with elaborate public worship rituals, once again coming down on the side of Paul and repudiating the simple teachings of the founder they accept, once again, in name only.

Dealing with sinners: Jesus ministered to the sinners, with no reluctance to engage adulterers, whores, publicans, tax collectors, lepers, or any other "unclean" person (the whole need not a physician; a church is a hospital for sinners rather than a showcase for saints).(This, of course, completely devastates the argument that god cannot be in the presence of sin, unless you do not believe in the notion of Jesus being god.) Paul, contradicts Jesus: 1Cor 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

Feeding the poor: Jesus taught in Matt 25:31-46 that our final salvation and judgment would be based in large part on our willingness to feed the poor. Paul contradicts this: 2Thess 3:10 "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." Does this mean that if poor people are unemployed, we should turn them away from any charity?

Slavery: When the Southerners in our country sought to defend slavery, they called upon Paul to back them up, citing Ephesians 6:5 and Titus 2:9-10, where he exhorts slaves to obey their masters, and the fact that slavery was widely practiced, but Paul never condemned it once.

Equality for Women: Paul was very anti-woman. He ordered that they NOT be allowed to speak in the churches ( 1st Cor 14:34-45) and that they stay home and take care of the kids (1st Timothy 5:14), and that wives should be submissive to the mastery of their husbands
1st Tim 2: 12-13 Ephesians 5:22-24 and Colossians 3:18-19.
DANNO

London, UK

#2 Jan 22, 2013
Can you see any contradictions in the Bible quotes below?

Paul is specifically rebutted by the writing of James (brother of Jesus) who offers one of the most striking and dramatic direct contradictions in James 2:24. Here he chooses language and syntactical structures which specifically contradicts Paul's wording in Romans 3:28 & GAL 2: 16 in both content and construction:

Here are the two passages, shown in various translations:

Romans 3:28 (Paul)
KJV: a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from WORKS of the law.
RSV: a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the DEEDS of the law.
Today's English Version: a person is PUT RIGHT WITH GOD only through FAITH, and NOT by DOING what the Law commands.
NIV: a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from OBSERVING THE LAW.

James 2:24 (James' rebuttal)
KJV: by WORKS a man is JUSTIFIED, and not by FAITH only.
RSV: a man is JUSTIFIED by WORKS and not by FAITH alone.
Today's English Version: it is by his ACTIONS that a person is PUT RIGHT WITH GOD, and not by his FAITH alone.
NIV: a person is JUSTIFIED by what he DOES and not by FAITH alone.

When Paul was SOBER and did NOT drink any WINE he WROTE ROM 2: 13

Dan
DANNO

London, UK

#3 Jan 22, 2013
Words of satan V God's word

JESUS SAID THE FIRST AND GREATEST COMMAND IS TO LOVE GOD NOT YOUR NEIGHBOR! MATT 22: 37-40

You need both eyes open wide to see the deception and lies by satan in GAL 5: 14

New International Version (©1984)
The ENTIRE LAW is summed up in a SINGLE COMMAND: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

New Living Translation (©2007)
For the WHOLE LAW can be summed up in this ONE COMMAND : "Love your neighbor as yourself."
DANNO

London, UK

#4 Jan 22, 2013
When asked by a lawyer what the most important commandment in the LAW was, Jesus reportedly answered (as reported in Matt 22:36-40 and Luke 10:25-37) with references from the Old Testament, that the GREATEST law was to love God (see Deut 6:5) and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself (see Lev 19:18). In the Luke text, the lawyer specifically asks what is necessary for eternal life (verse 25) and after Jesus references the two GREAT commandments, he says "This DO and you WILL LIVE " (verse 28)showing clearly that salvation is related to works/deeds/actions

GAL 5: 14
The ENTIRE LAW is summed up in a SINGLE COMMAND: "Love your neighbor as yourself

Paul teaches that the gift of salvation through grace occurs APART FROM any behavioral requirement.
Is Paul contradicting the words of Jesus?

Romans 3:28 : "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW."

Paul reiterates this position in: Romans 4:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1st & 2nd Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 -- yet no other Bible writer ever makes this point of stating that salvation occurs apart from or separate from works or deeds, which Paul not only states, but reiterates so emphatically.

How many members here secretly reject 1st & 2nd Tim 1: 9

Dan
Rockroller

Yucaipa, CA

#5 Jan 22, 2013
DANNO wrote:
When asked by a lawyer what the most important commandment in the LAW was, Jesus reportedly answered (as reported in Matt 22:36-40 and Luke 10:25-37) with references from the Old Testament, that the GREATEST law was to love God (see Deut 6:5) and the second was to love your neighbor as yourself (see Lev 19:18). In the Luke text, the lawyer specifically asks what is necessary for eternal life (verse 25) and after Jesus references the two GREAT commandments, he says "This DO and you WILL LIVE " (verse 28)showing clearly that salvation is related to works/deeds/actions
GAL 5: 14
The ENTIRE LAW is summed up in a SINGLE COMMAND: "Love your neighbor as yourself
Paul teaches that the gift of salvation through grace occurs APART FROM any behavioral requirement.
Is Paul contradicting the words of Jesus?
Romans 3:28 : "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW."
Paul reiterates this position in: Romans 4:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1st & 2nd Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 -- yet no other Bible writer ever makes this point of stating that salvation occurs apart from or separate from works or deeds, which Paul not only states, but reiterates so emphatically.
How many members here secretly reject 1st & 2nd Tim 1: 9
Dan
Great posts Dan! And of course I openly reject ALL of Paul's writings! Besides, who needs them to fully understand how salvation works when we all have the words of Jesus from Matthew and John?
birdman

Mattoon, IL

#7 Jan 23, 2013
George Bush Jnr wrote:
<quoted text>
"In the day that anyone accepts of this good AND evil written out in post #1, he shall surely die."
--- God, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
AMEN!
DANNO

London, UK

#8 Jan 23, 2013
birdman wrote:
<quoted text>
AMEN!
Birdie.

Thanx for your inspiring CONTRA-bution.

Dan
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#9 Jan 23, 2013
George Bush Jnr wrote:
<quoted text>
"In the day that anyone accepts of this good AND evil written out in post #1, he shall surely die."
--- God, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.
Forging God's signature there huh?

Who are you to write in the name of God?
DANNO

London, UK

#10 Jan 23, 2013
Kevin McMillen wrote:
<quoted text>
Forging God's signature there huh?
Who are you to write in the name of God?
Well said.
Dan
birdman

Mattoon, IL

#11 Jan 23, 2013
DANNO wrote:
Other Problems with Paul.
Manner of Worship: Jesus and Paul left contradictory legacies as to the manner in which worship should be conducted. Jesus preached as an itinerant wanderer, informally to locals he encountered in his travels. Usually these were small groups, though he did encounter the occasional large crowd. Jesus always prayed privately, and taught his followers to do the same. In fact, he specifically prohibited public prayer and public displays of worship (Matt. 6:1-18). The fact that he belabored this point so thoroughly in his Sermon on the Mount, his first and greatest public teaching, almost suggest a premonition that others would follow to undermine and contradict him. Jesus did not organize any great church. He led a small, itinerant band of traveling wanderers from town to town. The closest he came to establishing any kind of authority was in Matt. 16:18, when he designated an itinerant fisherman named Simon to become "Peter" the "rock" upon which his church would be founded. Paul, in contrast, organized a great system of churches. The story of Acts is the story of Paul traveling throughout the known world, establishing great churches. His epistles, which comprise the greatest single portion of the New Testament, about a third of it, were written to maintain administrative control of this great ecclesiastical network and to standardize its doctrines, not based on the teachings of Jesus, but on his own contradictory theology.
As with so many other issues, today's modern evangelical Christians fight for their right to expropriate public facilities for their worship and offer great churches with elaborate public worship rituals, once again coming down on the side of Paul and repudiating the simple teachings of the founder they accept, once again, in name only.
Dealing with sinners: Jesus ministered to the sinners, with no reluctance to engage adulterers, whores, publicans, tax collectors, lepers, or any other "unclean" person (the whole need not a physician; a church is a hospital for sinners rather than a showcase for saints).(This, of course, completely devastates the argument that god cannot be in the presence of sin, unless you do not believe in the notion of Jesus being god.) Paul, contradicts Jesus: 1Cor 5:11 "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."
Feeding the poor: Jesus taught in Matt 25:31-46 that our final salvation and judgment would be based in large part on our willingness to feed the poor. Paul contradicts this: 2Thess 3:10 "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat." Does this mean that if poor people are unemployed, we should turn them away from any charity?
Slavery: When the Southerners in our country sought to defend slavery, they called upon Paul to back them up, citing Ephesians 6:5 and Titus 2:9-10, where he exhorts slaves to obey their masters, and the fact that slavery was widely practiced, but Paul never condemned it once.
Equality for Women: Paul was very anti-woman. He ordered that they NOT be allowed to speak in the churches ( 1st Cor 14:34-45) and that they stay home and take care of the kids (1st Timothy 5:14), and that wives should be submissive to the mastery of their husbands
1st Tim 2: 12-13 Ephesians 5:22-24 and Colossians 3:18-19.
PURE GARBAGE HERE, and Very UNBIBLICAL
DANNO

Leeds, UK

#12 Jan 23, 2013
birdman wrote:
<quoted text>
PURE GARBAGE HERE, and Very UNBIBLICAL
Birdie

Thanx for you opinion and spirutual contribution.

Dan

Since: Aug 10

Pacific Northwest USA

#13 Jan 23, 2013
DANNO wrote:
Can you see any contradictions in the Bible quotes below?
Paul is specifically rebutted by the writing of James (brother of Jesus) who offers one of the most striking and dramatic direct contradictions in James 2:24. Here he chooses language and syntactical structures which specifically contradicts Paul's wording in Romans 3:28 & GAL 2: 16 in both content and construction:
Here are the two passages, shown in various translations:
Romans 3:28 (Paul)
KJV: a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from WORKS of the law.
RSV: a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the DEEDS of the law.
Today's English Version: a person is PUT RIGHT WITH GOD only through FAITH, and NOT by DOING what the Law commands.
NIV: a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH apart from OBSERVING THE LAW.
James 2:24 (James' rebuttal)
KJV: by WORKS a man is JUSTIFIED, and not by FAITH only.
RSV: a man is JUSTIFIED by WORKS and not by FAITH alone.
Today's English Version: it is by his ACTIONS that a person is PUT RIGHT WITH GOD, and not by his FAITH alone.
NIV: a person is JUSTIFIED by what he DOES and not by FAITH alone.
When Paul was SOBER and did NOT drink any WINE he WROTE ROM 2: 13
Dan
James was simply trying to get us to understand that if faith is genuine, it will automatically result in works (horse first, cart follows naturally).
George Bush Jnr

Brampton, Canada

#14 Jan 23, 2013
GrammyJoanne wrote:
<quoted text>James was simply trying to get us to understand that if faith is genuine, it will automatically result in works (horse first, cart follows naturally).
Grams, your horse is a wild mare without a cart, roaming in the marshes and dark forests of the earth.
Kevin McMillen

Morgantown, WV

#15 Jan 25, 2013
I'm going to try and comment about the so called contradictions that Dan has pointed out.

I do not see where Paul and Jesus' manner of worship were contradictory.

Jesus did indeed form a following. The crowds followed Jesus everywhere he went. He even fed them, and he publically prayed when he blessed the food.

Jesus went into the synagogues to teach just as Paul did. So Jesus did not just teach informally. Nor did he only pray in private.

Also, it was so much public prayer or public displays of worship that Jesus was condemning, but the "wanting to be seen of men" that he condemned.

Jesus taught Moses to have public worship on the Sabbath and Holy Days, they were to be Holy Convocations.

The ideas of Dan that I have commented on so far are just his ideas of what seem to him to be differences of Paul, and aren't in reality real differences.

Jesus didn't organize any great church? "I will build my church"

I do know what Dan is getting at here, and I do agree that any organisation of any denomination is contradictory to what Jesus taught. But is that really what Paul was doing or is it just merely what Dan thinks Paul did?

Paul did indeed go out just as Jesus did and preached in small groups within different cities and in the cities synagogues. By doing so, small groups formed. Not by Pauls commands, but on their own.

While the word church has been confusing to many people, the word ecclesia in the bible merely means an assembly. Not a church as we know of a church today.

A group of people were an assembly.

When people assembled in Galatia to worship God on the Sabbath, that was an ecclesia. Paul didn't organize this. It was a natural occurance from evangelisation.

Though many people today think that Paul exercised authority over those churches, he really did not. Sure he told them what he felt they should do, but he was not capable of making them obey him.

They did obey him not because of his supposed authority, but because they respected him, just as I'm sure anyone would respect the person that brought them the gospel.

As far as modern churches and organisations having their origin from Paul, that is a lie. Paul never taught anyone to build a large building and call it a church.

Paul never once taught a clergy class system like we see in the RCC and most other denominations. Paul told Timothy to go to them local assemblies and select older men in the faith to watch over the small assembly.

Most people say he said, "ordain Presbyteres as episkopos" or to "ordain bishops". They claim that a presbytere or an episkopos or bishop was a title or position in the church. That is completely wrong.

A presbyter was merely an older man in the faith and they were to select a plurality of elders in each local assembly. It was not to be a one man in charge.

episkopos is merely someone who watches out for the well being of their peers. Nothing more. Just because modern religiosity has made more of it than what it is isn't Paul's fault.

The word bishops is also episkopos. See what modern church systems has done with simple words? They make titles out of simple jobs.

Ordain merely means select but the whole world of christendom has made it into some big religious sounding word, and blame Paul for making this system. Nope it wasn't Paul.

An apostle is merely one sent, an evangelist is merly one who preaches the gospel. A deacon is merely a servant as is a minister. A presbyter is merely an older man and an episkopos is merely one who keeps an eye out for wolves so as to protect the flock.

There is no position of importance in any of these jobs. The world has made them of utmost importance, but originally it wasn't to be that way.

Even the word Pastor, only used one time in the KJV of the bible has been made out to be some great one man position in the local church. It is not.

No church should be ran by one man. It is not biblical.

It is Satanic, it is Babylonian, it is the image of the beast.
Lay Worker

Myrtleford, Australia

#16 Jan 25, 2013
Kevin McMillen wrote:
. No church should be ran by one man. It is not biblical.
It is Satanic, it is Babylonian, it is the image of the beast.
Kevvie doesnt say who runs Kevvies church.

Paul called the ekklesia out of the apostasy of his day into home churches. Rom 16:5; 1 Cor 16:19; Col 4:15; Philemon 2 etc

Peter admonished the devout in Acts 2
Robert Two

Australia

#17 Jan 25, 2013
I am impressed by these words above.
DANNO

Waterbeach, UK

#18 Jan 25, 2013
Kev

I have asked this before and I don't think you replied.

Do you accept the books of Thomas , Philip and 3rd Corinthians & the book Enoch & Chapter 13 of Daniel as scripture? Do you believe the RCCC should have cannonnized these books? The FACT they did not cannonnize them do you REJECT them or accept them as scripture?

If the RCC decideds to de-canonnize Paul's books for whatever reason would you still accept Paul's books as scripture?

Can you tell us a bit about the OT Law on TWO or THREE Witnesses?

Dan
George Bush Jnr

Brampton, Canada

#19 Jan 25, 2013
Lay Worker wrote:
<quoted text>
Kevvie doesnt say who runs Kevvies church.
Paul called the ekklesia out of the apostasy of his day into home churches. Rom 16:5; 1 Cor 16:19; Col 4:15; Philemon 2 etc
Peter admonished the devout in Acts 2
Big people are chatting on this thread. Stay quiet and listen.
DANNO

Waterbeach, UK

#20 Jan 25, 2013
George Bush Jnr wrote:
<quoted text>
Big people are chatting on this thread. Stay quiet and listen.
Blacky

Xcellent advice!
You learn things that you did not know by visiting my threads and reading my dialogue with Kevin.

Be patient, I know Mr Kevin will reply.

Dan
George Bush Jnr

Brampton, Canada

#21 Jan 25, 2013
DANNO wrote:
<quoted text>
Blacky
Xcellent advice!
You learn things that you did not know by visiting my threads and reading my dialogue with Kevin.
Be patient, I know Mr Kevin will reply.
Dan
Tranny,

Are you saying that I am saying that you are "big people"?

Funny!

GBJ

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