Dennis Neufeld / Gerhard Ebersöhn
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Gerhard Ebersoehn

South Africa

#122 Jun 24, 2012
Dennis Neufeld:
Only one minor problem is left in proving that the crucifixion of Christ occurred on Wednesday, and that is the question as to the exact day that Passover occurred in the year that Christ was crucified.

GE:
One …
We can find out from the New Testament “sequence and events” without any doubt that Christ rose from the dead “when there was a great earthquake ON THE SABBATH mid-afternoon BEFORE the First Day of the week” Matthew 28:1 and “AFTER the Jews’ preparations” or “the Jews’ Preparation Day” Matthew 27:62.

Two …
We can – without any help from outside the Scriptures – find out from the New Testament “events and sequence” alone that without any doubt Joseph undertook to bury Jesus’ body on “the Jews’ preparations” or “Preparation Day” Matthew 27:62 “that is the Fore-Sabbath” Mark 15:42 “THAT DAY having been great day sabbath” of the Jews’ passover John 19:31.
We can without any doubt and without any help from outside the Scriptures find out from the New Testament “events and sequence” alone, that Joseph “laid the body of Jesus” and “closed the grave” and that “the women prepared spices … THAT DAY”, from “mid-afternoon towards the Sabbath” Luke 23:54 and “the Jews’ preparations” had begun John 19:42, until “they began to rest the (Fourth) Commandment Sabbath” Luke 23:56b.

Three …
We can without any doubt and without any help from outside the Scriptures find out from the New Testament “events and sequence” alone, that Jesus had died and that “everybody had forsaken Him” Luke 23:48, BEFORE “it became the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath and it was EVENING already” Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57, on “the Preparation Day of the passover” John 19:14.

Four …
We can – without any help from outside the Scriptures – find out from the New Testament “events and sequence” alone that without any doubt Jesus “APPEARED” to Mary Magdalene and the other women “on the First Day of the week” and that it was the day that had begun “after the Sabbath” Mark 16:1 and with “it having been early dark still” John 20:1.

What more could a believer ask for?!

Dennis Neufeld:
The time framework God set up ‘In the beginning’ allows sin to run it’s course with a definite end point at some pre-ordained time.

GE:
Amen!

Dennis Neufeld:
Notice that on the fourth day of creation God created His clock; the sun, moon, and stars.
...and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; Gen. 1:14.
God started all of His time pieces at the same instant, on the fourth day of creation. We know that God started His calendar at the first new moon on or following the Spring equinox. At creation the Spring equinox and the first new moon occurred simultaneously on the very first Wednesday of the first week of creation.

GE:
Who told you that? You did not read it in Genesis! Adam was created an adult. Plants and animals were created capable of regeneration. So why could the moon not have appeared in the sky full moon for the first time? These are no more than speculations – yours, like mine.
Gerhard Ebersoehn

South Africa

#123 Jun 24, 2012
Dennis Neufeld:

This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you. Ex. 12: 2.
God notified Moses that the year starts with the first month. A month starts on a new moon, exactly as in the creation account.
To find out the exact day on which the crucifixion took place we must first know the date for the start of the year in which Christ was crucified.

GE:

“This month shall be __YOUR__ beginning of months; it shall be __to YOU__ the first month of the year.”‘To find out the exact day’,“you, must, proclaim”, that is,“you must reckon out”,“you must determine”--- man; not God must do it.

Dennis Neufeld

The year in which Christ was crucified was a Wednesday year as shown by Dan. 9: 27. The ministry of Christ began in 27 CE, which would then show the Wednesday year to be 30 CE.

GE:

Although the years you mention may be correct, it not necessarily shows the year 30 CE to be the “Wednesday year”.

Dennis Neufeld:

Because the Passover occurred on the 14th day of the first month we can then find the exact day.

GE:

That sounds more plausible; even ‘scientific’ if you please.

Dennis Neufeld:

I did this by going to a recognized authority on astronomy, the U.S. Naval Observatory web site. In their Astronomical Applications Department there is a section on Spring Phenomena, 25 BCE to 38 CE, which covers the time frame needed. The data gathered indicates that the Vernal (Spring) equinox in the year 30 CE occurred on March 22, a Wednesday. Further research showed that New Moon in that month, in that year, also occurred on March 22, the same Wednesday.

GE:

That may be so … although I have seen differing table and analyses --- all claiming “Her Majesty’s” or “U.S. Naval Observatory” origin. See book 2 of Book 1,‘Burial’ http://www.biblestudents.co.za .
Now WHOM shall we believe?
Then there also are the difficulties of the year of Christ’s birth and the year He began his ministry.
Now HOW shall we believe anyone?
Dennis Neufeld:
Fourteen days (two weeks) following the start of the year is Passover, also on a Wednesday.

GE:

Wait! Wait! Wait!“Fourteen days (two weeks) following the start of the year is Passover” no objections! But,“… also on a Wednesday”?! No! No! No!

Dennis Neufeld:

From creation God new on what day His Son was to be crucified. And as in the Creation week both the Spring Equinox and the New Moon fell on a Wednesday. Can this be coincidence?

GE:

Again! Wait! Certainly yes,“From creation God knew on what day His Son was to be crucified.” But that was _God_ who knew --- not us! Paul talks about his “knowledge in the MYSTERY of Christ … whereby, when you READ, you may understand.” Even the inspired Paul, when we read him, never lets us or wants us understand THESE ‘mysteries’! Nowhere in any Scripture for that matter, is anything “as it, now revealed”. Ephesians 3:4,5 cf. 1Corinthians 2:9,10.
What we need to know, has been revealed to us in plain written words of Scripture, like in the abundance in NEW Testament Scriptures of the names of the days and the times and the events in their sequence AND, their prophetic origin with regard to the “three days” of Christ’s last passover, the Passover of Yahweh “according to the Scriptures”.
Gerhard Ebersoehn

South Africa

#124 Jun 24, 2012
Dennis Neufeld:

The ‘experts’ tell us that Christ was in the grave for an ‘inclusive’ three days, not literally three days and three nights.

GE:

In this case, you and the ‘experts’ are BOTH wrong, since that Christ was NEITHER “in the grave for an ‘inclusive’ three days”, NOR “in the grave for … literally three days and three nights”.

One MUST differentiate between what Jesus really said and what He not really said! He did NOT say EITHER,“in the grave for an ‘inclusive’ three days”, OR “in the grave for … literally three days and three nights”. The fault lies neither with the words,“for an ‘inclusive’ three days”, nor with the words “for literally three days and three nights”; the fault lies with the words and the IDEA,“in the grave …”,“IN THE GRAVE for an ‘inclusive’ three days”; “IN THE GRAVE for literally three days and three nights”. We have spoken about this before, so I won’t repeat.

Dennis Neufeld:

If this is so then by the data just presented the resurrection of Christ MUST have taken place on Friday. We know that this is not the case.

GE:

Yes. I think here’s a slip of the tongue.“the resurrection … on Friday”?

Dennis Neufeld:

… the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Christ was killed as the Passover lamb on Wednesday at twilight on the 14th day of the first month, and was resurrected on Sabbath at twilight three nights and three days later.

GE:

I disagree with your importation of “Wednesday”. But you are perfectly in the mark with “killed … on the 14th day of the first month, and resurrected on Sabbath … three nights and three days later”— with ‘marking events’,“killed” and “resurrected”— YOUR, conclusion! NOT,_‘buried’_ the 14th day of the first month, and resurrected on Sabbath”.

If only I could get you to see this, dear Dennis Neufeld, I shall be most grateful to you and to our God and his Christ.

Thank you very much, Dennis Neufeld, for having allowed me the opportunity to discus this relevant ‘issue’ to a better understanding of the mystery of Godliness, the Passover of our Lord Jesus Christ Yahweh Elohim,“I-AM THE ALMIGHTY”.
Gerhard Ebersoehn

South Africa

#125 Jun 24, 2012
Dennis Neufeld:
The beauty of the Wednesday crucifixion is that all the texts that describe what went on during the latter part of that week fit so neatly, and without effort. Jesus said that He would be in the grave three nights and three days.

Gerhard Ebersöhn:
Yes,“Jesus said that He would be in the grave three nights and three days” has been said with far too little “effort”.

There are MANY other shortcomings than those I have touched on in the MANY “Wednesday crucifixion” theories that suddenly the last fifty years have appeared. But you are free to read for yourself ‘The Lord’s Day in the Covenant of Grace’ and other articles and discussion on http://www.biblestudents.co.za .

Dennis Neufeld:
The timing of the events of the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread fit perfectly; the lamb is slain on the day before the Passover, the Passover meal is eaten between dark and dawn, the Feast of Unleavened Bread starting after Passover and is followed three days later by the Wave Sheaf Offering, always on the day after a Sabbath.

GE:
Re: >>“the lamb is slain on the day before the Passover”<<
The lamb was slain “on the first day they killed the passover and removed leaven” on,__the passover__“before the Passover-FEAST” day of Unleavened Bread EATEN, John 13:1. Both 14 and 15 Abib are “passover”, and both, are “feast” of passover. Exodus 12:14. The distinction between Abib 14 as “the first, first (passover-) day ye shall remove leaven [during night] and kill the passover [during day]”, and Abib 15 “the first (passover-) day ye shall eat no leaven”, came later, Exodus 12:15,18 Leviticus 23:5,6 et al.
Re: >>“the Passover meal is eaten between dark and dawn”<<
Yes … before midnight, Exodus 12:12,23,29,42.

Re: >>“the Feast of Unleavened Bread starting after Passover and is followed three days later by the Wave Sheaf Offering”<<
The Feast of Unleavened Bread started after Passover Abib 14,“when they killed the passover”.“The third day” later, was “the Wave Sheaf Offering”,“the Sanctuary finished being cleansed on the sixteenth day of the First Month” by Christ’s Resurrection from the dead.“All the filth” king Ahaz the wicked one “brought into” the “temple” of the “people’s court”“into the inner part” and heart of sin of men. Our passover “according to the commandment of the King, came”, and “cleansed” and “carried out all the uncleanness abroad over the Dark Poluted River of Blood”(‘Kidron’), and “sanctified the House of the LORD … and in the sixteenth day of the First Month MADE AN END of CLEANSING.” 2Chronicles 29:17. Now mark how thoroughly the cleansing was done, verses 18,19!
“Then Hezekiah the king rose early and gathered the rulers and went up to the house of the LORD.” They prepared for and went up to WORSHIP … ON THE SABBATH DAY!

The sacrifices were those for the Sabbath Day.

The priests sounded the trumpets as always only on Sabbath Days was done.

The Song of the LORD,“of Moses and of the Lamb”, the
Song for the Sabbath on which the LORD
“planted” Israel on the shores of freedom, and commanded them to
“remember the Sabbath” for it.
And they bowed and worshipped, and sang praises and consecrated themselves to the LORD.
“So the SERVICE of the House of the LORD was set in ORDER.”

That was SABBATH-keeping by the CHURCH of God on the date the first sheaf was offered by waving, and on the Sabbath Day that The First Sheaf of all the Redeemed was waved having been “offered before the LORD” through Resurrection from the dead.

In 2Chronicles 29 PRECISELY the same date of season’s feast and Sabbath of the week as at the first the passover at the Exodus, and PRECISELY the same date of season’s feast and Sabbath of the week as at the Last Passover of Yahweh in Jesus Christ— the Sabbath three times in the climax of ages confirmed, the Sabbath Day of Jesus’ Resurrection from the dead.
Gerhard Ebersoehn

South Africa

#126 Jun 24, 2012
But that is not “The beauty” or “the timing”,“of the Wednesday crucifixion”; that is the beauty and the timing of Christ’s Resurrection “the third according to the Scriptures the third day”“IN SABBATH’S FULLNESS”, that gave impetus to a Fifth Day of the week Abib 14 Crucifixion AND a “Fore-Sabbath” Abib 15 Burial of Jesus Christ Lord of the Lord’s Day Sabbath of the LORD – let us pray – your, God. Amen.
Gerhard Ebersoehn

South Africa

#127 Jun 24, 2012
... replaces last posts, posts 125, 126 ...

Re:
Dennis Neufeld:
>>“the Feast of Unleavened Bread starting after Passover and is followed three days later by the Wave Sheaf Offering”<<

Gerhard Ebersöhn:
The Feast of Abib 15 of Unleavened Bread started
after Passover Abib 14 the “day they killed the passover” Mark 14:12 et al,
because “the Feast” John 13:1 of Abib 15
began “when it had become evening” Mark 15:42 of Abib 15,
“and it was that day, great day sabbath” of passover John 19:31.
“The third day” later,
“on the day after the sabbath” of Abib 15
was “the First Sheaf Offering”
“waved before the LORD” and
“the Sanctuary finished being cleansed
“on the sixteenth day of the First Month” 2Chronicles 29:17
… by Christ’s Resurrection from the dead.
“All the filth” king Ahaz the wicked one
“brought into” the “temple” of the “people’s court”
“into the inner part” and heart of sin of men,
“Our Passover”,“according to the commandment of the King”,
“came”, and
“cleansed” and
“carried out”—
“all the uncleanness,
“abroad”, and
“over the Dark Poluted River of Blood”(‘Kidron’),
“and sanctified the House of the LORD and …
“in the sixteenth day of the First Month …
“MADE AN END of CLEANSING.” 2Chronicles 29:17.
Now mark how thoroughly the cleansing was done, verses 18,19!
“Then Hezekiah the king rose early and gathered the rulers and went up to the house of the LORD.”
They prepared and went up
for to WORSHIP … ON THE SABBATH DAY
“as on the New Earth every Sabbath Day
“it shall come to pass
… but for the sacrifices …
“that all flesh shall come to worship
“THE FIRST SHEAF” CHRIST,
“BEFORE THE LORD,
“saith the LORD!

The sacrifices were those for the Sabbath Day.

The priests sounded the trumpets as always only on Sabbath Days was done.

The Song of the LORD,“of Moses and of the Lamb”, they sang, the “Psalm for the Sabbath” on which the LORD
“planted” Israel on the shores of freedom, and
commanded them to “remember the Sabbath” for it.
“And they bowed and worshipped, and sang praises and “consecrated themselves to the LORD.
“So the SERVICE of the House of the LORD was set in ORDER.”

That was SABBATH-keeping by the CHURCH of God on the date the first sheaf was last offered by waving, and on the Sabbath Day that The First Sheaf of all the Redeemed was first waved having been “offered before the LORD” through Resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ our Lord.

In 2Chronicles 29 it was PRECISELY the same date of season’s feast and Sabbath of the week as at the first the passover at the Exodus, and PRECISELY the same date of season’s feast and Sabbath of the week as at the Last Passover of Yahweh in Jesus Christ— the Sabbath three times in the climax of ages confirmed, the Sabbath Day of Jesus’ Resurrection from the dead.

But that is not “The beauty” or “the timing”,“of the Wednesday crucifixion”; that is the beauty of the timing of Christ’s Resurrection “according to the Scriptures the third day”“IN SABBATH’S FULLNESS”, that gave impetus to a Fifth Day of the week Abib 14 Crucifixion AND a “Fore-Sabbath” Abib 15 Burial of Jesus Christ Lord of the Lord’s Day Sabbath of the LORD – let us pray – your, God. Amen.
Gerhard Ebersoehn

Pretoria, South Africa

#128 Jun 25, 2012
"Does not the apostolic today derive its mystery, power and dignity wholly and utterly from this yesterday of the underground waters of Jesus’ past being which come to the surface in the Passover time as a spring which swells to a great river in their time? In this Yesterday it takes place first and properly that theKingdom of God comes and is proclaimed in parable, signs and wonders. Here it is that the reconciliation of the world with God is accomplished on the cross. Here it is that the foundations of the community are laid. Here it is that the great dividing line is secretly but very really drawn which marks off the new age from the old.Here there lives and moves and acts and suffers the Lord who reveals Himself as such at the resurrection, and then in the power of this revelation builds, maintains and rules his community until the new age is consummated."

“… wenn wir (den Menschen Jesu)… so sehen, wie er in der neutestamentlichen Erinnerung tatsächlich gelebt hat und wie er uns in der evangelischer Überlieferung tatsächlich gezeigt ist – dann springt uns unwiederstehlich die Fülle gerade dieses Gestern, gerade dieser gewesenen Zeit ins Auge. Wie sollte sie (diese gewesene Zeit der Osteroffenbarung) geringer sein als die (Zeit) der apostolischen Gegenwart? Was hat diese (Gegenwart) vor jener (Osteroffenbarung) voraus als dies, das in ihr die Offenbarung dessen bezeugt und geglaubt und durch den Heiligen Geist vergegenwärtig wird, was in jener noch verborgen ist? Aber hat nicht jene vor ihr dies voraus, dass eben in jener das unterirdische Wasser strömt, daß dann in der Osterzeit als Quelle ans Tageslicht tritt, um in der Apostolzeit zum Fluß und Strom zu werden? Hat das apostolische Heute sein Geheimnis, seine Kraft, seine Würde nicht ganz und gar von jenem Gestern her? Hier, in diesem Gestern, geschieht es doch zuerst und eigentlich, daß das Reich Gottes kommt und im Geheimniswort, aber auch durch Zeichen und Wunder verkündigt wird, daß die Versöhnung der Welt mit Gott am Kreuz zur Vollstreckung kommt. Hier wird doch der Grund der Gemeinde gelegt. Hier fällt doch – höchst verborgen, aber höchst real – die grosse, das Vorher vom Nachher trennende Entscheidung. Hier atmet und lebt, hier handelt und leidet doch der Herr, der sich zu Ostern als solcher offenbart hat, um nachher in der Kraft dieser seiner Offenbarung seine Gemeinde zu erbauen, zu erhalten, zu regieren, bis auch dieses Nachher zu seinem Ziel gekommen sein wird.…” Karl Barth, Kirchliche Dogmatik, Die Lehre von der Schöpfung, Dritter Band, Zweiter Teil,§ 47, Theologischer Verlag, Zürich, 1974, p. 570,
http://www.biblestudents.co.za/docs/html/Year... 's%20death1.htm
Gerhard Ebersoehn

Pretoria, South Africa

#129 Jun 25, 2012
Read the past discussion, dear Dennis and everybody else, here,

Under "W" - http://biblestudents.co.za/#W
Under "N" - http://biblestudents.co.za/#MN

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