Meaning of symbols in prophecy
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Better stuff

Brampton, Canada

#21 Sep 22, 2012
Dennis wrote:
<quoted text>
Better stuff,
Do know when the book of Hebrews was written and by whom? This question has direct bearing on your response seen above. You stated categorically (with complete surety) that the language used in Rev. 1:16 came from Heb. 4:12-13, obviously not realizing that Revelation was written AFTER Hebrews. We know with certainty that John the Beloved wrote Revelation, we do not know with certainty who wrote Hebrews (it was NOT Paul).
I did not need to be told the meaning of the term 'two-edged sword' because that is obvious to anyone that loves and practices the truth. The only words that come out of the mouth of God are TRUTH. The fact that this 'sword' does not cut the wielder (Jesus) is that Jesus IS TRUTH. But this sword cuts to the heart of the matter of salvation in both the forehand pass, and the back hand pass. There is no rest from Truth, no one can hide from its stroke; all will be brought low by it UNLESS they have truth in them as does Jesus. The ONLY way to get this truth inside you is to ABIDE in the words of the author of Truth, who is Jesus. You cannot gain this truth by having it downloaded into you (imparted), or by having someone else stand in your place in the face of it (imputed). YOU must have it INSIDE you in order to not be cut by its blade. The only way to achieve this is through the process of Sanctification as taught by Jesus Christ. If you believe that you are 'righteoused'(made righteous) in any other way then you will be cut down by Truth's blade.
If you believe that you can never, never, never be righteous because you are sinful and will always be thus; and that your sinfulness is made into righteousness by being cloaked (hidden) in the righteousness of another, then you will be cut down as a dry branch, bundled together with the other dry branches pruned from the vine, and you will be cast in the fire of the destruction of the 2nd death.
These concepts are NOT MINE. I did not invent them out of whole cloth. I did not make them up just to annoy you. They are from the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as He gave them to His own eyewitness disciples. You can argue until you are blue in the face with me, but that simply does not change the facts and evidence.
Conclusion

So, YOU reject Heb. 4:12-13 in favour of YOUR own interpretation of the biblical prophecy. What can I say?
Better stuff

Brampton, Canada

#22 Sep 22, 2012
Dennis wrote:
<quoted text>
Better stuff,
Do know when the book of Hebrews was written and by whom? This question has direct bearing on your response seen above. You stated categorically (with complete surety) that the language used in Rev. 1:16 came from Heb. 4:12-13, obviously not realizing that Revelation was written AFTER Hebrews. We know with certainty that John the Beloved wrote Revelation, we do not know with certainty who wrote Hebrews (it was NOT Paul).
I did not need to be told the meaning of the term 'two-edged sword' because that is obvious to anyone that loves and practices the truth. The only words that come out of the mouth of God are TRUTH. The fact that this 'sword' does not cut the wielder (Jesus) is that Jesus IS TRUTH. But this sword cuts to the heart of the matter of salvation in both the forehand pass, and the back hand pass. There is no rest from Truth, no one can hide from its stroke; all will be brought low by it UNLESS they have truth in them as does Jesus. The ONLY way to get this truth inside you is to ABIDE in the words of the author of Truth, who is Jesus. You cannot gain this truth by having it downloaded into you (imparted), or by having someone else stand in your place in the face of it (imputed). YOU must have it INSIDE you in order to not be cut by its blade. The only way to achieve this is through the process of Sanctification as taught by Jesus Christ. If you believe that you are 'righteoused'(made righteous) in any other way then you will be cut down by Truth's blade.
If you believe that you can never, never, never be righteous because you are sinful and will always be thus; and that your sinfulness is made into righteousness by being cloaked (hidden) in the righteousness of another, then you will be cut down as a dry branch, bundled together with the other dry branches pruned from the vine, and you will be cast in the fire of the destruction of the 2nd death.
These concepts are NOT MINE. I did not invent them out of whole cloth. I did not make them up just to annoy you. They are from the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as He gave them to His own eyewitness disciples. You can argue until you are blue in the face with me, but that simply does not change the facts and evidence.
Conclusion

So, YOU reject Heb. 4:12-13 in favour of YOUR own interpretation of the biblical prophecy. What can I say?
Dennis

Yucaipa, CA

#23 Sep 22, 2012
Better stuff wrote:
<quoted text>
Conclusion
So, YOU reject Heb. 4:12-13 in favour of YOUR own interpretation of the biblical prophecy. What can I say?
The book of Hebrews is of no consequence in defining truth because NO ONE knows who wrote it, and it also conflicts with the words of Jesus given to Matthew and John. The term 'living and active' implies that the words of God can be changed by anyone that says they are led by the Spirit to mean anything they desire. This is just what Paul did. And even thought Paul did not write Hebrews someone that was a disciple of Paul probably did, which puts it in the same category as Paul's writings; i.e. worthless in trying to find truth.

And NO, I do not use 'my own interpretation' in understanding end time prophecy. I use a set of rules established in Scripture for understanding the meaning of prophecy. And yes, this does cause me to have interpretations that are different from the 'authorized' versions of the SDA church. Time will tell what is the correct understanding of these things. I am not willing to bet my salvation and my eternal life that the SDA interpretations are correct.
Better stuff

Brampton, Canada

#24 Sep 22, 2012
That's all anyone needed to hear from you. The case is closed.
Jam

Atlanta, GA

#25 Sep 22, 2012
Dennis wrote:
The book of Hebrews is of no consequence in defining truth because NO ONE knows who wrote it, and it also conflicts with the words of Jesus given to Matthew and John.
Hebrews does not conflict with any of the other books. Only Gnostics make such claims. You must be a book of Enoch devotee.

The author of the AKJV is convinced Paul in fact wrote Hebrews probably due to the mention of Italy where Paul was evangelizing.

The Letter of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews

http://www.angelfire.com/al4/allenkc/akjv/heb...

http://carm.org/wasnt-new-testament-written-h...

Not sure what this has to do with prophetic symbolism. Looks like you gave bigger problems.
Dennis

Yucaipa, CA

#26 Sep 22, 2012
Jam wrote:
<quoted text>
Hebrews does not conflict with any of the other books. Only Gnostics make such claims. You must be a book of Enoch devotee.
The author of the AKJV is convinced Paul in fact wrote Hebrews probably due to the mention of Italy where Paul was evangelizing.
The Letter of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews
http://www.angelfire.com/al4/allenkc/akjv/heb...
http://carm.org/wasnt-new-testament-written-h...
Not sure what this has to do with prophetic symbolism. Looks like you gave bigger problems.
I am not Gnostic, Paul is. Also, I am not a 'devotee' of the book of Enoch, but I do like the Homilies of Clement who was an associate of Peter. Lots of good stuff there.

In spite or your apologetics for Paul (pun intended) being the author of Hebrews this is just not true. Not ONCE in all of Paul's identified writings does Paul mention Jesus in the role as the "High Priest". This happens 13 times in Hebrews, and is too much of a coincidence to ignore. Also, when you apply textual criticism to Hebrews it is apparent that Paul was not the author because the Greek in Hebrews is significantly different from the Greek that is use in Paul's writing.

It is worth mentioning that both of the eyewitness gospel writers, Matthew and John, wrote their accounts AFTER Paul finished his own writing. This is significant in that this makes the differences between what they (Matthew and John) wrote and what Paul claims that Jesus gave him in vision MORE dissimilar in content, and shows that what Paul wrote was definitely NOT what Jesus taught to His own eyewitness disciples. Even though Paul wrote first, and is counted by some as the 'greatest apostle', Matthew and John were not influenced by His writings in the least; sticking tenaciously to what Jesus told them by relying on the promise that the Holy Spirit would bring to their (the disciples of Jesus) remembering ALL that He said to them (John 14:26). This alone is enough to call into question the veracity of Paul's claim that it was the real Jesus that accosted Him in vision on the road to Damascus, and demonstrates that Satan was able to intercept and interfere with the message of truth that Jesus wanted His own disciples to deliver to the nations (Matt. 28: 16-20).

It is for this reason (among others) that I am reticent to blithely accept that every document in the New Testament that is touted to be 'of God' is, in fact, from God. This is why I use only the words of Jesus as given to His own eyewitness disciples as the arbiter of truth in my life. I am not willing to take the risk that the words of just anyone CLAIMING to be 'of God' are really as they say, except those that were with Jesus for the year that He was in ministry on this earth. I will not reduce my standard of truth away from the words of Jesus just to make someone else feel better about believing that the entire Bible is the wholly inspired, inerrant 'word of God' from cover to cover.
Rockroller

Colorado Springs, CO

#28 Sep 26, 2012
Dennis wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not Gnostic, Paul is. Also, I am not a 'devotee' of the book of Enoch, but I do like the Homilies of Clement who was an associate of Peter. Lots of good stuff there.
In spite or your apologetics for Paul (pun intended) being the author of Hebrews this is just not true. Not ONCE in all of Paul's identified writings does Paul mention Jesus in the role as the "High Priest". This happens 13 times in Hebrews, and is too much of a coincidence to ignore. Also, when you apply textual criticism to Hebrews it is apparent that Paul was not the author because the Greek in Hebrews is significantly different from the Greek that is use in Paul's writing.
It is worth mentioning that both of the eyewitness gospel writers, Matthew and John, wrote their accounts AFTER Paul finished his own writing. This is significant in that this makes the differences between what they (Matthew and John) wrote and what Paul claims that Jesus gave him in vision MORE dissimilar in content, and shows that what Paul wrote was definitely NOT what Jesus taught to His own eyewitness disciples. Even though Paul wrote first, and is counted by some as the 'greatest apostle', Matthew and John were not influenced by His writings in the least; sticking tenaciously to what Jesus told them by relying on the promise that the Holy Spirit would bring to their (the disciples of Jesus) remembering ALL that He said to them (John 14:26). This alone is enough to call into question the veracity of Paul's claim that it was the real Jesus that accosted Him in vision on the road to Damascus, and demonstrates that Satan was able to intercept and interfere with the message of truth that Jesus wanted His own disciples to deliver to the nations (Matt. 28: 16-20).
It is for this reason (among others) that I am reticent to blithely accept that every document in the New Testament that is touted to be 'of God' is, in fact, from God. This is why I use only the words of Jesus as given to His own eyewitness disciples as the arbiter of truth in my life. I am not willing to take the risk that the words of just anyone CLAIMING to be 'of God' are really as they say, except those that were with Jesus for the year that He was in ministry on this earth. I will not reduce my standard of truth away from the words of Jesus just to make someone else feel better about believing that the entire Bible is the wholly inspired, inerrant 'word of God' from cover to cover.
Very well stated. However, many here will simply give up discorsing the issue on this post as they have been blinded by the words of Paul.

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