Meaning of symbols in prophecy
First Prev
of 2
Next Last
Dennis

Yucaipa, CA

#1 Sep 17, 2012
Do symbols always have the same meaning in prophecy throughout the OT and NT, or does the meaning of the symbol change from one prophecy to another? Please explain.

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#2 Sep 17, 2012
Dennis wrote:
Do symbols always have the same meaning in prophecy throughout the OT and NT, or does the meaning of the symbol change from one prophecy to another? Please explain.
Understanding prophecy is almost never about having a library of consistent symbols because each prophecy in Scripture usually contains its own unique symbols.
Dennis

Yucaipa, CA

#3 Sep 17, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> Understanding prophecy is almost never about having a library of consistent symbols because each prophecy in Scripture usually contains its own unique symbols.
Yet in the prophecies in Dan. we see 'head','horns' and 'crowns', and see these same symbols in Rev. Do they mean the same things or do they mean different things. How does a person determine this, and is God consistent throughout prophecy or is He not?

Since: Sep 12

Clarkston, Wa.

#4 Sep 17, 2012
Does the bible interpret it's self? If you answered yes then you have your answer if no then keep asking man.
Rockroller

Colorado Springs, CO

#5 Sep 17, 2012
2all wrote:
Does the bible interpret it's self? If you answered yes then you have your answer if no then keep asking man.
In regards to prophecy, there is a set of rules one MUST obey in order to fully understand the true meaning of end time prophecy.

Remember, NO ONE was to have known the truth about end time prophecy until the last generation living on this earth as it only pertains to them, and then only the true bondservants will come to an understanding of this truth, but none of the wicked will ever understand end time prophecy.(Rev. 1:1 and Dan. 12:10)

Therefore, if a prophecy uses a symbol for something, then that symbol's understanding MUST be given in this same prophecy for a true understanding. If there is nothing telling the reader what the symbol means, then IT is not a symbol, but the thing it says it is. Make sense?

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#6 Sep 17, 2012
Dennis wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet in the prophecies in Dan. we see 'head','horns' and 'crowns', and see these same symbols in Rev. Do they mean the same things or do they mean different things. How does a person determine this, and is God consistent throughout prophecy or is He not?
Certainly God is consistent in the way He intends the prophecies to be interpreted. You mentioned the similarities between Daniel and Revelation. Look carefully. Note, for example, that the sea beast in Revelation 13 is a composite beast made up from the four beasts of Daniel 7.

Revelation 13
1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

Consequently, the sea beast has seven heads because the lion had one head (Daniel 7:4), the bear had one head (Daniel 7:5), the leopard had four heads (Daniel 7:6) and the nondescript ten-horned beast had one head (Daniel 7:7). Merge those beasts together, add up the number of heads (1+1+4+1), and see that you get a seven-headed ten-horned beast.

My point is that the obvious similarity between Daniel and Revelation is an inadequate hermeneutic. It takes discernment, and not so much a dictionary with a formula, to interpret the meaning of the composite beast.
http://everythingimportant.org/
Rockroller

Colorado Springs, CO

#7 Sep 17, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> Certainly God is consistent in the way He intends the prophecies to be interpreted. You mentioned the similarities between Daniel and Revelation. Look carefully. Note, for example, that the sea beast in Revelation 13 is a composite beast made up from the four beasts of Daniel 7.
Revelation 13
1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.
Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.
Consequently, the sea beast has seven heads because the lion had one head (Daniel 7:4), the bear had one head (Daniel 7:5), the leopard had four heads (Daniel 7:6) and the nondescript ten-horned beast had one head (Daniel 7:7). Merge those beasts together, add up the number of heads (1+1+4+1), and see that you get a seven-headed ten-horned beast.
My point is that the obvious similarity between Daniel and Revelation is an inadequate hermeneutic. It takes discernment, and not so much a dictionary with a formula, to interpret the meaning of the composite beast.
http://everythingimportant.org/
Shubee, I see where you made your mistake and that is in your reading of verse ONE of chapter 13 in Revelation. The first beast of Rev. 13 is made up of only THREE symbols as found in Dan. 7. The Leopard, Lion and Bear. Notice that the 4th (in Dan. 7) was thrown into the fire, then destroyed forever, so it had nothing to do with the first beast of Rev. 13/
The Dragon is a symbol for Satan, who by the way, is the second beast of Rev. 13. Satan gives the first beast his power EVEN though Paul would disagree as found in Romans 13:1-4. The first beast is a ONE World Government with a civil power of ten nations and a religious power of 7 major religions.(Religions speak blasphemy)

One of those religious powers (heads) had lost it's official way of worship by the way of a war when Rome destroyed Israel. They NEVER restored (yet) their full way of worship by sacrificing animals in the Temple. This ONE head is the wounded head who's head gets healed and after this the whole world (all of the people except those in the Kingdom of Heaven) marvels and followes after the first beast of Rev. 13. At this time, the whole world HATES those in the Kingdom of Heaven and want to kill them and do--except for the Two Witnesses as found in Rev. 11.

Why? Because they are giving the world the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven (NOT the gospel of Jesus invented by paul), which are the words of Jesus--that ALL of the religions of the world hate, even the Christians as they follow after Paul's words of lies.

So no Shubee, what you wrote was not true and was not the way to fully understand real end time prophecy. Follow the rules Shubee or you will find youself gasping for air attempting to swim in the lake of fire.
Better stuff

Brampton, Canada

#8 Sep 18, 2012
Rockroller wrote:
<quoted text> Shubee, I see where you made your mistake and that is in your reading of verse ONE of chapter 13 in Revelation. The first beast of Rev. 13 is made up of only THREE symbols as found in Dan. 7. The Leopard, Lion and Bear. Notice that the 4th (in Dan. 7) was thrown into the fire, then destroyed forever, so it had nothing to do with the first beast of Rev. 13/
The Dragon is a symbol for Satan, who by the way, is the second beast of Rev. 13. Satan gives the first beast his power EVEN though Paul would disagree as found in Romans 13:1-4. The first beast is a ONE World Government with a civil power of ten nations and a religious power of 7 major religions.(Religions speak blasphemy)
One of those religious powers (heads) had lost it's official way of worship by the way of a war when Rome destroyed Israel. They NEVER restored (yet) their full way of worship by sacrificing animals in the Temple. This ONE head is the wounded head who's head gets healed and after this the whole world (all of the people except those in the Kingdom of Heaven) marvels and followes after the first beast of Rev. 13. At this time, the whole world HATES those in the Kingdom of Heaven and want to kill them and do--except for the Two Witnesses as found in Rev. 11.
Why? Because they are giving the world the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven (NOT the gospel of Jesus invented by paul), which are the words of Jesus--that ALL of the religions of the world hate, even the Christians as they follow after Paul's words of lies.
So no Shubee, what you wrote was not true and was not the way to fully understand real end time prophecy. Follow the rules Shubee or you will find youself gasping for air attempting to swim in the lake of fire.
Rockroller, I see where you made your mistake.

EVERYWHERE, man! Take stock of yourself lest you fall.
Dennis

Yucaipa, CA

#9 Sep 18, 2012
It seems there are two camps with regards to the interpretation of symbols in prophecy: 1) that symbols can mean anything that the individual chooses because a symbol can actually mean another symbol (and on infinitum); 2) that symbols indicate a specific entity (person, place or thing) and that meaning will be consistent throughout ALL prophecy.

I personally believe that the meaning of a symbol is identified within prophecy as a whole (consistent in all prophecy), and that if it is not specifically identified the symbol is the reality.
Better stuff

Brampton, Canada

#10 Sep 18, 2012
Dennis wrote:
It seems there are two camps with regards to the interpretation of symbols in prophecy: 1) that symbols can mean anything that the individual chooses because a symbol can actually mean another symbol (and on infinitum); 2) that symbols indicate a specific entity (person, place or thing) and that meaning will be consistent throughout ALL prophecy.
I personally believe that the meaning of a symbol is identified within prophecy as a whole (consistent in all prophecy), and that if it is not specifically identified the symbol is the reality.
Lol

"out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword" (Rev. 1:16)

???
Dennis

Yucaipa, CA

#11 Sep 18, 2012
Better stuff wrote:
<quoted text>
Lol
"out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword" (Rev. 1:16)
???
All right, let's try it. It is obvious that the 'two-edged sword' is a symbol (metaphor) for something else. After all Jesus (this is who is being described in Rev. 1:12-16) is not going to walk around like a carnival sword swallower with a real sword coming out of His mouth. Now let's go back one phrase to gain context;

In his right hand he held seven stars, Rev. 1:16a.

These seven stars ARE defined in the prophecy as 'angels'(Rev.1:20), which means 'messengers' which carry a 'message' to the seven churches. Therefore the 'stars' are these messages.

A two-edged sword cuts both ways. So when Jesus speaks HIS words cut both to heal and to destroy: this is the definition of what TRUTH does. Therefore, the Two-edged sword is the TRUTH, which is given to the 7 Assemblies (churches) by a messenger (angel-not necessarily a spirit being, could be a human messenger), who hears this message from the source for all truth, Jesus Christ. The prophecy does not indicate that this 'angel' is more than one messenger. The context of the messages would seem to indicate that this is a singular individual that God has chosen to give these 7 messages to the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end (Rev. 1:1-3). This person is then the sword bearer for the King of the Kingdom of Heaven, and is probably the Faithful and Wise Bondservant seen in Matt. 24:45-51.

God is nothing if not consistent. Knowing the end from the beginning it makes sense that God would use a unified symbology that would be consistent from the beginning of the prophecies of the end to their end. This consistency would also show that it is the God of Creation that is giving these prophecies and not the impostor 'god', who lives and reigns in confusion.
Rockroller

Colorado Springs, CO

#12 Sep 18, 2012
Better stuff wrote:
<quoted text>
Rockroller, I see where you made your mistake.
EVERYWHERE, man! Take stock of yourself lest you fall.
BS, IF I have made a mistake, please take ONE at a time and correct me. If you can't do this then your posts and words are nothing but spit into the wind and mean nothing. But make sure you correct by using the words of Jesus or the OT. All other words are hearsay.

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#13 Sep 18, 2012
Rockroller wrote:
<quoted text> BS, IF I have made a mistake, please take ONE at a time and correct me.
You assumed that the fourth beast of Daniel 7 has already been destroyed and thus incorrectly concluded that no part of the fourth beast, even symbolically, was incorporated into the sea beast of Revelation 13. That's a perfect example of remarkable blindness. Not only does the sea beast have the ten horns of the fourth beast of Daniel 7, it has all the characteristics of the little horn on the fourth beast (Daniel 7). So why can't you recognize the identical characteristics of antichrist in the little horn of Daniel 7 and that of the sea beast in Revelation 13? It is because you are so much like him?
Dennis

Yucaipa, CA

#14 Sep 18, 2012
Actually, Shubee, the Great and Terrible beast of Dan. 7 was destroyed, and this shows up not only in Dan. 7 but also in Rev. 13.

I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. (12) As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. Dan. 7:11-12.

The destruction of the 4th beast occurred BEFORE the time when the dominion of the other 3 beast were taken away (all prophecy occurs in the order presented). The 'burning fire' seen in v. 11 is the fire of the 2nd death, which means that this particular beast, the Roman Empire, will NEVER rise again.

This is confirmed in Rev. 13:2, because in this verse we see the other three beasts of Dan. 7 (Lion, Bear. Leopard) but we DO NOT SEE a representation of the Great and Terrible beast (4th) because it has already been destroyed.

God is ALWAYS consistent in prophecy, and uses symbols identically in all prophecy.

Incidentally, this 4th beast was destroyed in 1869-70 when Italy removed the Papal States from the control of the Catholic Church and gave control of those territories to the government of Italy. Look it up.
Rockroller

Colorado Springs, CO

#15 Sep 18, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>You assumed that the fourth beast of Daniel 7 has already been destroyed and thus incorrectly concluded that no part of the fourth beast, even symbolically, was incorporated into the sea beast of Revelation 13. That's a perfect example of remarkable blindness. Not only does the sea beast have the ten horns of the fourth beast of Daniel 7, it has all the characteristics of the little horn on the fourth beast (Daniel 7). So why can't you recognize the identical characteristics of antichrist in the little horn of Daniel 7 and that of the sea beast in Revelation 13? It is because you are so much like him?
What? No, I am not assuming anything like that as the words in Dan. 7 actually say that it was destroyed while the other three (leopard, lion and bear) continued without their jurisdiction and this was verified in the description of the first beast of Revelation 13! So Shubee, it appears that your opinion, while taken from the words of EGW, are indeed is the blind opinion.

NO WHERE was Rome incorporated in the beast of Rev. 13! So please apoligize and repent for your mistaken understanding.
Better stuff

Brampton, Canada

#16 Sep 18, 2012
Dennis wrote:
<quoted text>
All right, let's try it. It is obvious that the 'two-edged sword' is a symbol (metaphor) for something else. After all Jesus (this is who is being described in Rev. 1:12-16) is not going to walk around like a carnival sword swallower with a real sword coming out of His mouth. Now let's go back one phrase to gain context;
In his right hand he held seven stars, Rev. 1:16a.
These seven stars ARE defined in the prophecy as 'angels'(Rev.1:20), which means 'messengers' which carry a 'message' to the seven churches. Therefore the 'stars' are these messages.
A two-edged sword cuts both ways. So when Jesus speaks HIS words cut both to heal and to destroy: this is the definition of what TRUTH does. Therefore, the Two-edged sword is the TRUTH, which is given to the 7 Assemblies (churches) by a messenger (angel-not necessarily a spirit being, could be a human messenger), who hears this message from the source for all truth, Jesus Christ. The prophecy does not indicate that this 'angel' is more than one messenger. The context of the messages would seem to indicate that this is a singular individual that God has chosen to give these 7 messages to the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end (Rev. 1:1-3). This person is then the sword bearer for the King of the Kingdom of Heaven, and is probably the Faithful and Wise Bondservant seen in Matt. 24:45-51.
God is nothing if not consistent. Knowing the end from the beginning it makes sense that God would use a unified symbology that would be consistent from the beginning of the prophecies of the end to their end. This consistency would also show that it is the God of Creation that is giving these prophecies and not the impostor 'god', who lives and reigns in confusion.
Wrong!

The imagery of Rev. 1:16, "out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword", is drawn from Heb. 4:12-13. But WHO told you, "A two-edged sword cuts both ways. So when Jesus speaks HIS words cut both to heal and to destroy: this is the definition of what TRUTH does" ? You are inventing meanings for prophetic symbols.
Rockroller

Colorado Springs, CO

#17 Sep 18, 2012
Better stuff wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong!
The imagery of Rev. 1:16, "out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword", is drawn from Heb. 4:12-13. But WHO told you, "A two-edged sword cuts both ways. So when Jesus speaks HIS words cut both to heal and to destroy: this is the definition of what TRUTH does" ? You are inventing meanings for prophetic symbols.
What comes out of one's mouth BS? It is words. And those words are what Jesus came to this earth to give in order for people to abide in them and have eternal life. But if you abide it other's words, such as Paul, Luke, EGw and the writer of Hebrews, those words out of Jesus' mouth will destroy you and your mistaken opinion and belief. This is NOT made up, it's exactly what Jesus said many times and recorded by both Matthew and John.

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#18 Sep 19, 2012
Rockroller wrote:
<quoted text> What? No, I am not assuming anything like that
Then why are you denying the parallels I listed?
Rockroller wrote:
the words in Dan. 7 actually say that it was destroyed while the other three (leopard, lion and bear) continued without their jurisdiction
That doesn't means that it was destroyed in the past.
Rockroller wrote:
this was verified in the description of the first beast of Revelation 13!
That makes about as much sense as telling God to shut up in the name of Jesus.
Rockroller wrote:
NO WHERE was Rome incorporated in the beast of Rev. 13!
The ten horns of Rome are the ten horns of the sea beast. Likewise, the character of the little horn of Daniel 7 is the character of the sea beast. You just don't know what that means.
Better stuff

Brampton, Canada

#19 Sep 19, 2012
Rockroller wrote:
<quoted text> What comes out of one's mouth BS? It is words. And those words are what Jesus came to this earth to give in order for people to abide in them and have eternal life. But if you abide it other's words, such as Paul, Luke, EGw and the writer of Hebrews, those words out of Jesus' mouth will destroy you and your mistaken opinion and belief. This is NOT made up, it's exactly what Jesus said many times and recorded by both Matthew and John.
You are mixed up, ever clambering for your own mirage, a thing which you alone see and yet which is nothing but a fool's paradise, Rev. 1:16 speaks about the word of GOD, as does Heb. 4:12-13, not about the words of others such as your own doctrine.
Dennis

Yucaipa, CA

#20 Sep 19, 2012
Better stuff wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong!
The imagery of Rev. 1:16, "out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword", is drawn from Heb. 4:12-13. But WHO told you, "A two-edged sword cuts both ways. So when Jesus speaks HIS words cut both to heal and to destroy: this is the definition of what TRUTH does" ? You are inventing meanings for prophetic symbols.
Better stuff,
Do know when the book of Hebrews was written and by whom? This question has direct bearing on your response seen above. You stated categorically (with complete surety) that the language used in Rev. 1:16 came from Heb. 4:12-13, obviously not realizing that Revelation was written AFTER Hebrews. We know with certainty that John the Beloved wrote Revelation, we do not know with certainty who wrote Hebrews (it was NOT Paul).

I did not need to be told the meaning of the term 'two-edged sword' because that is obvious to anyone that loves and practices the truth. The only words that come out of the mouth of God are TRUTH. The fact that this 'sword' does not cut the wielder (Jesus) is that Jesus IS TRUTH. But this sword cuts to the heart of the matter of salvation in both the forehand pass, and the back hand pass. There is no rest from Truth, no one can hide from its stroke; all will be brought low by it UNLESS they have truth in them as does Jesus. The ONLY way to get this truth inside you is to ABIDE in the words of the author of Truth, who is Jesus. You cannot gain this truth by having it downloaded into you (imparted), or by having someone else stand in your place in the face of it (imputed). YOU must have it INSIDE you in order to not be cut by its blade. The only way to achieve this is through the process of Sanctification as taught by Jesus Christ. If you believe that you are 'righteoused'(made righteous) in any other way then you will be cut down by Truth's blade.

If you believe that you can never, never, never be righteous because you are sinful and will always be thus; and that your sinfulness is made into righteousness by being cloaked (hidden) in the righteousness of another, then you will be cut down as a dry branch, bundled together with the other dry branches pruned from the vine, and you will be cast in the fire of the destruction of the 2nd death.

These concepts are NOT MINE. I did not invent them out of whole cloth. I did not make them up just to annoy you. They are from the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as He gave them to His own eyewitness disciples. You can argue until you are blue in the face with me, but that simply does not change the facts and evidence.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 2
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Seventh-day Adventist Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
The Israeli Sabbath is a Covenant and a Festival (Oct '13) 8 min Shadrach 912
The Israeli Sabbath was NOT made for mankind / ... (Mar '15) 8 min anonymous 851
Poll Where was Jesus' Spirit for 3 Days? 54 min Gerhard Ebersoehn 191
The response I get when I request to be disfell... 58 min Zog Has-fallen 422
FOOLS cannot read the BIBLE . 1 hr Gerhard Ebersoehn 53
The Investigative Judgement is False Doctrine (May '15) 3 hr sitkahappy 2,442
CAN Investigative Judgment be PROVEN (Jan '12) 5 hr sitkahappy 3,513
Sabbath Views From a New Adventist 6 hr Earburner 268
More from around the web