SDA Theology: Four Major Problems!!

SDA Theology: Four Major Problems!!

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Claudia

AOL

#1 Feb 2, 2009
Our head elder (retired preacher NY) has just resigned. He pointed out his reasons in SS class: Trinity, EGW, Investigative Judgment and Heavenly Millennium. He will still be a Sabbatarian, believe the rest,etc. This is sad...but could he be right?? It must have taken a lot of courage for sure.
Stewart

Masterton, New Zealand

#2 Feb 2, 2009
It is sad Claudia, I agree, and yes, it must have taken courage for him to publicly declare the reasons for his resignation.

We must all be convinced in our own minds about the reasons we have for believing as we do.

But in the end our characters will show whether we have believed truth or error. Jesus said, "Sanctify them by Thy truth...". Truth will sancify our characters, but error cannot sanctify anyone.

If we give up truth for error, then negative results will be seen in our lives sooner or later. But if the opposite is the case, and he has given up error for truth, then his character must reflect the graces of God all the more clearly.

Personally I do not believe that the former head elder can be right in his reasons for resigning.

Many have acted boldly and stood with a courage worthy of a far better cause.

Regards,
Stewart.
Shubee

Dallas, TX

#3 Feb 2, 2009
Claudia,

So your head elder was a preacher all his life and then figures out that he didn't believe in fundamental Seventh-day Adventist doctrine? What a loser.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#4 Feb 2, 2009
Shubee wrote:
Claudia,
So your head elder was a preacher all his life and then figures out that he didn't believe in fundamental Seventh-day Adventist doctrine? What a loser.
Your Christian spirit comes through very clearly here Shubee... what part of your post was supposed to help Claudia?

Claudia, it sounds like you should be asking yourself questions like these. If you think it was a courageous thing he did, then he must have had very compelling reasons to do so. Aren't these worth looking into yourself?
Earthcaller

Austin, TX

#5 Feb 2, 2009
Claudia wrote:
Our head elder (retired preacher NY) has just resigned. He pointed out his reasons in SS class: Trinity, EGW, Investigative Judgment and Heavenly Millennium. He will still be a Sabbatarian, believe the rest,etc. This is sad...but could he be right?? It must have taken a lot of courage for sure.
Hi Claudia! Progressive Adventism doesn't believe in the Trinity doctrine and neither did the Historic SDAs, this came about in 1980 with the formulation of the 27 fundamental apostasy which was part of the betrayal of the SDA sacred trust given by God to the church.
Investigative Judgment:
When you study the Sanctuary in depth there was the agenda of individual forgiveness on a daily basis by way of the common priest. That forgiveness was registered in blood on the horns of the altar of incense for corporate Israel as well as for the individual on the altar of burnt offering in the court. You have to study Leviticus 4 and 16 carefully, that is where the truth can be found regarding the role of each altar in the sanctuary.
God knew who had confessed their sins throughout the course of the entire year from the moment that the person sinned. If the person confessed their sin and it was already registered in blood there would be no need for an investigation. The Day of Atonement was not for forgiveness of sins even though there was the provision by way of a sin offering for the Congregation but the basic theology of the Day of Atonement was for cleansing the records of forgiven sin throughout the course of the year which was registered in blood. The application of the Investigative judgment applies to the Little horn in Daniel 7. The Earthly Sanctuary services revealed Yeshua's righteousness by way of its forgiveness during course of the year and the cleansing of the forgiven sins of the Congregation of Israel on the Day of Atonement.This is clearly revealed in Hebrews 9:26
Hebrews 9:26
But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Now it is up to the individual to choose when does the consummation of the ages take place. Did it take place in 31AD or does the consummation of the ages begin with the announcement that we find in Revelation 14:6,7 The Hour of his Judgment has come? We are told that this Judgment hour message is the Everlasting Gospel.
Earthcaller

Austin, TX

#6 Feb 2, 2009
EGW White :
is valid but on account of not understanding the agendas of the Sanctuary in relation to the work of Yeshua she has been misunderstood. When she stated that Jesus went from the Holy Place to the Holy of Holies in 1844 she was using a basic illustration in order that the truth of the Holy Place in relation to Jesus High Priestly ministry with regard to the 7 churches would later be cleared up by way of a progressive understanding. Mainline SDA theology has never properly defined the role of the Holy Place, they have always relegated the Holy Place to personal intercession and the bible simply does not teach this. The Holy Place was for corporate intercession for forgiveness and that is exactly what we see in Revelation 1,2,3 Yeshua giving calls to the churches for corporate repentance. Two of the churches Philadelphia and Smirna didn't need to repent, these church eras passed the corporate test. Laodicea has failed by betraying her High Priest and joining the ecumenical BEM in 1980.
An understanding regarding the work of Jesus in the midst of the 7 candlesticks brings to light the corporate intercession and forgiveness of our High Priest and once this is understood it clears the fog regarding Desmond Ford's erroneous theology of relegating the final atonement to 31AD right after Yeshua ascended back to heaven.
This could not be so because the work of individual and corporate forgiveness preceded the Day of Atonement and the antitypical Day of Atonement is found in Revelation 14 much further away then the corporate intercession of Revelation 1,2,3.
While true that Yeshua went before the father immediately after his ascension this was not the hour of his judgment. It would be further into the future as stated in Hebrews in the consummation of the ages 1844.
Regarding the Heavenly Millennium
Jesus was clear on that matter in John 14:
[2] In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
[3] And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
Conclusion
There is a Judgment both corporate and individual for the SDA Church but it is on account of the sin of being spewed out. If the SDA Church hadn't betrayed God then there would be no judgment because Jesus stated the following.
24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Claudia

AOL

#7 Feb 3, 2009
Thank you very much. The preacher asked us to type in Heavenly/Earthly Millennium on our computers and read what Wikkipedia has to say. Also, we go to the Earthly Jerusalem, Zach 14..the Father's House is not physical, but Jesus through His daily ministration, guarantees us a "place" with the Father. The reason for an Earthly Millennium makes sense..then all the BILLIONS who are now living and who died through the ages will get their gospel-opportunity. God wants ALL to hear. I am convinced about the NON=TRINITARIAN view..I cannot believe the SDA leaders don't want to change this! Why Not?
Shubee

Dallas, TX

#8 Feb 3, 2009
Claudia,

True righteousness and courage means living an entire life of obedience to the truth and then willingly being crucified for one's faithfulness.

http://everythingimportant.org/righteousness/
http://www.everythingimportant.org/seventhday...
http://www.everythingimportant.org/dupery

How much respect should be given to those who have been confused all their lives and then in their retirement years decide that they don't believe the truth?

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#9 Feb 3, 2009
Shubee wrote:
... True righteousness... means living an entire life of obedience ...
Salvation by works... Ummm, I wonder why do so many SDA's have a problem with this?
Shubee wrote:
How much respect should be given to those who have been confused all their lives and then in their retirement years decide that they don't believe the truth?
And who are you to say they are confused all their lives OR that their decision in retirement is not the truth. You really are a piece of work Eugene.

My question to you Claudia is "Do you think the these issues are important enough to keep you out of the kingdom of God? At the end of the day, is it a requirement that Jesus will deny you eternal life if you do or don't believe?

Pray, research and keep looking for answers from DIFFERENT sources Claudia.
Shubee

United States

#10 Feb 3, 2009
"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7 (New King James Version).

So how righteous are those who have spent their whole lives ever learning and never being able to come to a knowledge of the truth yet, in their twilight years, declare that everything that they have ever believed and taught as a Seventh-day Adventist pastor is wrong?
Claudia

AOL

#11 Feb 3, 2009
We expect people who have been keeping Sunday all their lives to accept the Sabbath when we teach them. They were brainwashed with Sunday-keeping. The Pastor felt the same way. He came from a Baptist background and because the Sabbath and state of dead were so convincing, he just assumed the rest were also true. It makes sense to me and I salute this brave man. Are there others who would rather get the regular paycheck while they KNOW they believe wrong? Preacher for sale! It IS important to KNOW if you are saved or if you have to WAIT AND SEE. I want to KNOW FOR SURE. Jesus stands in my place..I AM GUILTY and need no investigation. But I have received a perfect character-gift. Praise God!

“Jeremiah Was A Bullfrog!!”

Since: May 08

Ben Lomond, Tasmania

#12 Feb 3, 2009

SDA Theology: Four Major Problems!!

What!! Only four??
Historic Adventist

Mount Pleasant, MI

#13 Feb 3, 2009
Adam and Eve were told not to eat or touch the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's just that simple. It is a hard thing for people to receive the Scriptures just as they read. We believe and keep the Sabbath, why? For no other reason than, God says so. That Pastor believed the state of the dead, why? Because God said so. What this all boils down to is, Will we believe God, just as He said it. SDA's seem to have not problem believing God just as it reads when it comes to the Sabbath, state of the dead, second coming; to list a few. Somehow when it comes to the Investigative Judgment we want to tell God He is wrong despite what He has said in the Scriptures, why? The only answer that is obvious is, that person did not believe God, and he did not obey the Second Angels message, which is an experience. And therefore since that person did not make a full work of the Second Angels message he could not receive the Third Angels Message/Experience, the Investigative Judgment.

It does not seem reasonable to me for a person to accept those things out of the Scriptures just because they agree with them, but when something is read that they disagree with, well I think all of us have seen the results of that type of extreme fanaticism.

Ask yourselves this. God said He gave is only begotten Son. Do you believe that phrase "only begotten Son"?

If not, why do you explain away Scripture?
Paul from California

San Jose, CA

#14 Feb 3, 2009
Historic Adventist wrote:
Adam and Eve were told not to eat or touch the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It's just that simple. It is a hard thing for people to receive the Scriptures just as they read. We believe and keep the Sabbath, why? For no other reason than, God says so. That Pastor believed the state of the dead, why? Because God said so. What this all boils down to is, Will we believe God, just as He said it. SDA's seem to have not problem believing God just as it reads when it comes to the Sabbath, state of the dead, second coming; to list a few. Somehow when it comes to the Investigative Judgment we want to tell God He is wrong despite what He has said in the Scriptures, why? The only answer that is obvious is, that person did not believe God, and he did not obey the Second Angels message, which is an experience. And therefore since that person did not make a full work of the Second Angels message he could not receive the Third Angels Message/Experience, the Investigative Judgment.
It does not seem reasonable to me for a person to accept those things out of the Scriptures just because they agree with them, but when something is read that they disagree with, well I think all of us have seen the results of that type of extreme fanaticism.
Ask yourselves this. God said He gave is only begotten Son. Do you believe that phrase "only begotten Son"?
If not, why do you explain away Scripture?
Historic,

please if you will, show us where in the
New Testament does God command us to keep the
Israeli Sabbath or Sunday Sabbath.

Paul
Claudia

AOL

#15 Feb 3, 2009
Also, please show me where in the OT it says that the sacrificial lamb specifically pointed to Jesus Who would die on the cross. While at it, also show from the OT that a man may not have a whole buch of wives!
Earthcaller

Austin, TX

#16 Feb 3, 2009
Claudia wrote:
Thank you very much. The preacher asked us to type in Heavenly/Earthly Millennium on our computers and read what Wikkipedia has to say. Also, we go to the Earthly Jerusalem, Zach 14..the Father's House is not physical, but Jesus through His daily ministration, guarantees us a "place" with the Father. The reason for an Earthly Millennium makes sense..then all the BILLIONS who are now living and who died through the ages will get their gospel-opportunity. God wants ALL to hear. I am convinced about the NON=TRINITARIAN view..I cannot believe the SDA leaders don't want to change this! Why Not?
Earthcaller:
O! so now the Father's house is not physical yet when Jesus ascended he was going upwards towards Outer Space and he specifically told his disciples that he would come back to take them to that specific place.
Where do find evidence for an earthly millennium in the New Testament? Keep in mind that at the end of time humanity will be divided into two camps those who have the mark of the beast and those who have the Seal of God. In revelation 19 we are given the following information.
[19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who sits upon the horse and against his army.
[20] And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.
[21] And the rest were slain by the sword of him who sits upon the horse, the sword that issues from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
Earthcaller:
Notice that verse 21 states that the rest were slain. The rest that are slain are the rest of humanity who are enslaved by the beast.
The only ones that will escape are those who's names are written in the book of life the rest of humanity has the mark of the beast. Jesus even stated that when he comes will he find faith upon the earth. Also in the days of Noah only 8 people were saved during the time of end likewise. These believers will be taken to heaven just as Juan 14 states. Another piece of evidence is that when the devil is chained the earth becomes an abyss.
Revelation 20:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Earthcaller:
Also! the only only people who are resurrected are the saints from all the ages and those who didn't have the mark of the beast.
revelation 20:
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the
souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Earthcaller

Austin, TX

#17 Feb 3, 2009
Conclusion I
Where does it say that people are resurrected to be instructed during the millennium? The Bible clearly states that the wicked are resurrected after the millennium. So according to your doctrine or the Pastor who is teaching error how does he account for fact that those who are judged by their works are resurrected after the millennium and not during the millennium?
[5] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.
Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.
[14] Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
[15] and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Conclusion II
So where is the millennium upon the earth?
Your Pastor has Zacaraiah 14 and Ezekiel 38 confused. These prophecies were conditional and would have taken place on the earth if Israel would have been obedient to the will of God. So the anti-typical application of these prophecies will take place after the millennium.
In Revelation 20 we see the same Gog Magog of Ezekiel 38. Keep in mind that the application of Ezekiel 38 would take place when Israel relies on God's protection and lives in unwalled villages. In the Revelation 20 we are told that the wicked surrounded the camp of the saints. The saints live without fear and they rely on God's protection. When the forces of Gog and Magog try to destroy them fire will come down and devour the wicked. So Revelation 20 is the anti-typical fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 a very misunderstood prophecy on account of the fact that Evangelicals don't understand the conditional nature of prophecy and the majority believe in the erroneous dispensational view.
Same with the temple found in Ezekiel which many believe will be built during the millennium. When you compare it to the New Jerusalem we are told there is no temple.
Revelation 21
And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

Conclusion

You wrote that the father's house is not physical? Sounds like some type of spiritualism is being taught. The Bible tells us that the New Jerusalem is physical and descends from heaven. So if the New Jerusalem is a very physical structure what makes you think that there will not be any structures in heaven. Heaven is not a spiritualistic plane of existence heaven is literally Outer space.
Claudia

AOL

#18 Feb 4, 2009
John says that we will always be whre HE IS..he does not say a Planet, Heaven or anyplace else, but Zach 14 tells us. The "books" of Rev 20:11,12 are not lifetime records of the lost but BIBLIA=scripture rolls from which the billions who never had a gospel-moment will be taught..the Book of Life is again functional, and names get registered as dicisions are made. Where else do you fit in Isaiah 11?? tame animals WHILE judgment is going on. The Jerusalem of Rev 20:9 is NOT the New Jerusalem..that comes LATER in Rev 21 . There is A CAMP OF THE SAINTS around Jerusalem. Think... I know it is hard to evaluate other options. Just look at GC Dessolation of Earth para 15 how EGW deliberately left out the last words of Is 24:6 "few men left" see for yourself!
Paul from California

San Jose, CA

#19 Feb 4, 2009
Historic,

you have reply in post #14

Thanks !

Paul
Lay Worker

United States

#20 Feb 4, 2009
PoC

Nowhere in the Bible does God call His Sabbath the Israeli Sabbath

your a fraud

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