If God is not a Trinity, and Jesus Ha...

If God is not a Trinity, and Jesus Had A Beginning....

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Powerintheblood

Palm Desert, CA

#1 Mar 19, 2009
The following argument (in my mind) developed as a result of discussing and considering the Arian position regarding the nature of God:

All Christians, including those who oppose the Trinity, are in complete agreement that God the Father is eternal; that is, He has always existed and therefore is without beginning.

At the same time, the Bible is clear that absolutely nothing exists that Christ did not make.

Question: If God the Father has existed from eternity, but Christ has a beginning, how long did the Father exist completely in solitude? How long did God the Father exist before Christ existed?

For no matter when Christ came into existence, the belief that God has no beginning means necessarily that God existed totally alone for endless ages before anything else existed or was made.

Does this make sense to anyone-- that God would exist completely in solitude for endless ages before the first thing was made? It doesn't make sense to me, yet it must be true if Arians are right, that God the Father alone is eternal.

My next point is that if Arians are right, this means of necessity that God the Father existed completely alone for endless ages without having anyone to love or communicate with-- if indeed there is no Trinity and if indeed Christ has a beginning and the Father does not. For the Bible is very clear that nothing has ever existed apart from Jesus Christ.

Since God IS love, is it consistent and reasonable (to say nothing of asking whether it's in agreement with Scripture) to believe that a God who IS LOVE would exist in total solitude for endless ages without anyone or anything to love except Himself?

“God's Word is Truth ”

Since: Mar 09

Hillsdale, NY

#2 Mar 19, 2009
Powerintheblood wrote:
The following argument (in my mind) developed as a result of discussing and considering the Arian position regarding the nature of God:
All Christians, including those who oppose the Trinity, are in complete agreement that God the Father is eternal; that is, He has always existed and therefore is without beginning.
At the same time, the Bible is clear that absolutely nothing exists that Christ did not make.

Question: If God the Father has existed from eternity, but Christ has a beginning, how long did the Father exist completely in solitude? How long did God the Father exist before Christ existed?
For no matter when Christ came into existence, the belief that God has no beginning means necessarily that God existed totally alone for endless ages before anything else existed or was made.
Does this make sense to anyone-- that God would exist completely in solitude for endless ages before the first thing was made? It doesn't make sense to me, yet it must be true if Arians are right, that God the Father alone is eternal.
My next point is that if Arians are right, this means of necessity that God the Father existed completely alone for endless ages without having anyone to love or communicate with-- if indeed there is no Trinity and if indeed Christ has a beginning and the Father does not. For the Bible is very clear that nothing has ever existed apart from Jesus Christ.
Since God IS love, is it consistent and reasonable (to say nothing of asking whether it's in agreement with Scripture) to believe that a God who IS LOVE would exist in total solitude for endless ages without anyone or anything to love except Himself?
Greetings Friend, I agree with you thoughts here. And I do not believe that only God the Father is the self existing One. I believe that the Divine Trio in Heaven-Father Son and Holy Spirit are as One but are Three Individuals of the God-Head and that they are completely equal and self existing and they had no beginning and have no end.

Christ said of Him Self: Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Travis

United States

#3 Mar 19, 2009
Bytheword wrote:
<quoted text>
Greetings Friend, I agree with you thoughts here. And I do not believe that only God the Father is the self existing One. I believe that the Divine Trio in Heaven-Father Son and Holy Spirit are as One but are Three Individuals of the God-Head and that they are completely equal and self existing and they had no beginning and have no end.
Christ said of Him Self: Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
The three of them being equal is correct, but they are one in the sence of three individuals working together for our salvation and the vindication of God as one, as Adam and Eve were one, yet two persons.(a unit)

Are you really wanting to trash the mystery of the incarnation by saying Christ existed in the flesh from all eternity?
Powerintheblood

Palm Desert, CA

#4 Mar 19, 2009
Travis wrote:
<quoted text>
The three of them being equal is correct, but they are one in the sence of three individuals working together for our salvation and the vindication of God as one, as Adam and Eve were one, yet two persons.(a unit)
Are you really wanting to trash the mystery of the incarnation by saying Christ existed in the flesh from all eternity?
You are right to point out that Jesus Christ did not exist in the flesh until a particular point in time within human history. However, the pre-incarnate Christ has existed from eternity. I don't believe anyone on this thread intended to express any other meaning than this.
Travis

United States

#5 Mar 19, 2009
Powerintheblood wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right to point out that Jesus Christ did not exist in the flesh until a particular point in time within human history. However, the pre-incarnate Christ has existed from eternity. I don't believe anyone on this thread intended to express any other meaning than this.
But were they a divine trio from eternity?

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#6 Mar 19, 2009
Travis wrote:
<quoted text>
But were they a divine trio from eternity?
NO !

“God's Word is Truth ”

Since: Mar 09

Hillsdale, NY

#7 Mar 19, 2009
Travis wrote:
<quoted text>
But were they a divine trio from eternity?
"By the Spirit which searches all things, even the deep things of God, have been revealed precious truths which cannot be described by pen or voice."—Sons and Daughters of God, 34.

"The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden.

"Before this the Spirit had been in the world; from the very beginning of the work of redemption He had been moving upon men’s hearts. But while Christ was on earth, the disciples had desired no other helper. Not until they were deprived of His presence would they feel their need of the Spirit, and then He would come."—Desire of Ages, 669.

"The Spirit was not then [in ancient times] given in power because Jesus was not yet glorified."—1 Manuscript Release, 364 (Manuscript 148, October 8, 1899).
John chapter one reveals that God the Father and Son were together since creation. But so was the Holy Spirit and he was active in creation see Gen.1

The Holy Spirit is eternal (Heb 9:14).
The Holy Spirit does divine works, such
as creation (Gen 1:2; Job 26:13; 33:4).
The Holy Spirit can create and restore (Ps
104:30).
The Holy Spirit regenerates men; that is,
He works in them the New Birth (John 3:5-6; Titus
3:5).

Since: Mar 09

Palm Desert, CA

#8 Mar 19, 2009
Travis wrote:
<quoted text>
But were they a divine trio from eternity?
All I am showing is that on the basis of what the Bible says-- that Christ made everything that exists-- we can know that God the Father did not exist in eternity all by Himself.

It does not prove the Trinity, but it does show that Jesus Christ is also eternal, or without beginning.

This goes right along with the testimony of Christ Himself in Rev. 22: 13. He said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
Travis

United States

#9 Mar 19, 2009
Powerintheblood wrote:
<quoted text>
All I am showing is that on the basis of what the Bible says-- that Christ made everything that exists-- we can know that God the Father did not exist in eternity all by Himself.
It does not prove the Trinity, but it does show that Jesus Christ is also eternal, or without beginning.
This goes right along with the testimony of Christ Himself in Rev. 22: 13. He said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
Thankyou

You did not answer the question

Do you have a Scripture that shows jesus was without beginning?

Are you a SDA or separated SDA
Historic Adventist

Mount Pleasant, MI

#10 Mar 19, 2009
Powerintheblood wrote:
Question: If God the Father has existed from eternity, but Christ has a beginning, how long did the Father exist completely in solitude?
This the Scriptures do not speak of. Also consider that if we could explain the beginning of the Father; then He would cease to be God. So to answer your question, there is no answer. Those who do can only speculate and conjecture.
Powerintheblood wrote:
How long did God the Father exist before Christ existed?
Another answer that can only be speculated and conjectured about.
Powerintheblood wrote:
For no matter when Christ came into existence, the belief that God has no beginning means necessarily that God existed totally alone for endless ages before anything else existed or was made.
This is pure guess work and speculation.
Powerintheblood wrote:
Does this make sense to anyone-- that God would exist completely in solitude for endless ages before the first thing was made? It doesn't make sense to me, yet it must be true if Arians are right, that God the Father alone is eternal.
You missrepresent that position. By placing the Arian belief so, you expose yourself as a trinitARIAN, and that is why you can not understand. Trinitarian concept of the Godhead is steeped in tradition, speculation, and pure conjecture. Most all the Scriptures used to support the Trinity concept are wrested from their subjects and placed in a setting to make God say what He never did.
Powerintheblood wrote:
My next point is that if Arians are right, this means of necessity that God the Father existed completely alone for endless ages without having anyone to love or communicate with-- if indeed there is no Trinity and if indeed Christ has a beginning and the Father does not. For the Bible is very clear that nothing has ever existed apart from Jesus Christ.
Since God IS love, is it consistent and reasonable (to say nothing of asking whether it's in agreement with Scripture) to believe that a God who IS LOVE would exist in total solitude for endless ages without anyone or anything to love except Himself?
very nice straw-man. And that is all trinitARIANS can do is use ad-hominan.
Historic Adventist

Mount Pleasant, MI

#11 Mar 19, 2009
Powerintheblood wrote:
<quoted text>
All I am showing is that on the basis of what the Bible says-- that Christ made everything that exists-- we can know that God the Father did not exist in eternity all by Himself.
It does not prove the Trinity, but it does show that Jesus Christ is also eternal, or without beginning.
This goes right along with the testimony of Christ Himself in Rev. 22: 13. He said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
Christ, the Son of God, made everything that exists. True, so saith the Scriptures.

The Father has no beginning or end, therefore he has always existed. But can you produce a Scripture text that says thus of Son of God?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the First and the Last." Nothing here denotes or points to having no end, by the contrary it is full of beginnings. Do you know what it means by "the First and the Last"?

Just a note I would like to make clear. Arians believe that Christ is a created being. TrinitARIANS also believe that the Son of God was created, so duz the AFL club to.
Travis

United States

#12 Mar 19, 2009
Arians are Trinitarian

You can read all about it in the RCC catechism
Terrilyn

Lynwood, CA

#13 Mar 19, 2009
Historic Adventist wrote:
<quoted text>Christ, the Son of God, made everything that exists. True, so saith the Scriptures.
The Father has no beginning or end, therefore he has always existed. But can you produce a Scripture text that says thus of Son of God?
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the First and the Last." Nothing here denotes or points to having no end, by the contrary it is full of beginnings. Do you know what it means by "the First and the Last"?
Just a note I would like to make clear. Arians believe that Christ is a created being. TrinitARIANS also believe that the Son of God was created, so duz the AFL club to.
Either your a fool after all this time or a liar to speak something that you very well know is not treu. Your very well know ALF people who by the way are not ALF people but believers who simply all have the same beliefs the AlF does not have a registry your name in only on a mailing list and not a menbers list.

We do not believe that the SON of GOD was created your lying through your teeth, and you know it.

And your NO Historic either!

Since: Mar 09

Palm Desert, CA

#14 Mar 19, 2009
Travis wrote:
<quoted text>

You did not answer the question
My point here is not to argue for the Trinity per se. But do I believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed? Yes, do.
Do you have a Scripture that shows jesus was without beginning?[QUOTE]

The Bible calls Jesus Christ "God," not "a god." John 1:1-- And the Word [Jesus Christ] was God [Gk. kai theos en ho logos]; 2 Peter 1: 1 [tou theou hemon kai soteros iesou christou]; Titus 2: 13 [tou megalou theou kai soteros hemon Iesou cristou]; John 20: 28 [ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou]; Is. 9: 5. Micah 5: 2 refers to Him as having been from "the days of eternity," a phrase used in reference to Yahweh in the Psalms and in Hab. Isaiah 9: 5 calls Jesus Christ "Father of eternity" (see YLT). Jesus Christ declares Himself to be "the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last," in Rev. 22: 13. Col. 1: 17 says, "[Christ] is before all things." The Greek means "to be, to exist," hence, "He existed before all things." (See Charles Williams trans.) Hebrews 1: 3 describes Christ as "the exact reproduction of His (God's) nature." And so on.

[QUOTE] Are you a SDA or separated SDA
I'm a Seventh-day Adventist.

Since: Mar 09

Palm Desert, CA

#15 Mar 19, 2009
Historic Adventist wrote:
..By placing the Arian belief so, you expose yourself as a trinitARIAN...
Of course I am a believer in the Trinity. I am not attempting to hide that fact.

Since: Mar 09

Palm Desert, CA

#16 Mar 19, 2009
Historic Adventist wrote:
...
Just a note I would like to make clear. Arians believe that Christ is a created being....
Yes, that's true. I studied with Jehovah's Witnesses for several years and read everything published by them that I could get my hands on.

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#17 Mar 20, 2009
Powerintheblood wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course I am a believer in the Trinity. I am not attempting to hide that fact.
How do you see the Trinity ? Do you see the Trinity as
3 separate individual beings but only one spirit God shared among the 3 individual beings?

:-)

Since: Mar 09

Palm Desert, CA

#18 Mar 20, 2009
Historic Adventist wrote:
TrinitARIANS also believe that the Son of God was created, so duz the AFL club to.
Trinitarians believe in the Trinity and do not believe that the Son of God was created. We believe that the Son of God is the Eternal Son of God, having no beginning and no end.

Ellen White taught and believed in the Three powers of heaven, or the Heavenly Trio. She spoke of the Holy Spirit as the Third Person of the Godhead. She wrote in the Desire of Ages that Jesus appeared to Moses at the burning bush and proclaimed Himself to be the "I AM THAT I AM." She said that it was Jesus Christ who proclaimed the Ten Commandments at Sinai and gave both the moral law and the ceremonial law to Moses. I do not know how much clearer she could have made it.

1 Cor. 10: 9 says plainly that it was Christ whom the ancient Hebrews tested in the wilderness.(Check the latest editions of the UBS Greek Bible.)

I am not acquainted with any AFL club, unless you mean the Club Adventist Forum. If you are referring to it, although there are members who teach against the Trinity, the Club itself is not anti-Trinitarian. That club has all kinds of members belonging to it, and none of them speak for everyone. The administration believes firmly in the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the SDA Church.

Since: Mar 09

Palm Desert, CA

#19 Mar 20, 2009
Travis wrote:
Arians are Trinitarian
You can read all about it in the RCC catechism
No, Arians are opposed to the beliefs of the Trinity, whereas Trinitarians believe in it. Arians disbelieve in the full deity of Jesus Christ and believe that He had a beginning. In other words, Arians believe there was a time when Christ was not. Arians also do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a member of the Godhead but believe that "holy spirit" is an influence or power from the Father. By contrast, Trinitarians believe that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead.

The Roman Catholic Church's Catechism definitely does not teach Arianism. It is opposed to Arianism. The RCC believes in the Trinity, although some details of their view of it is differs from that of Seventh-day Adventists.
Tony

Australia

#20 Mar 20, 2009
Powerintheblood wrote:
...
At the same time, the Bible is clear that absolutely nothing exists that Christ did not make....
There is a flaw in this statement if you want to take it at face value and use it to support your own ideas.

Can you see the flaw in your reasoning by using that statement?

Let's take it as you intend it to be taken that "NOTHING exists that Christ did not make. Because then you would need to include God in that equation, which means you are claiming that Jesus created God... because "NOTHING exists that Christ did not make", using your own words.

So your argument contains a flawed hole, and you cannot use that argument as support that Jesus is eternal, because we all know that Jesus did not create Himself or the Eternal Father God.

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