Most SDA leadership opposed to "Great...

Since: Jul 09

St. Paul

#22 May 19, 2012
>This is my proof:-

Contrary to Scripure and history. Satan was cast out of heaven BEFORE Adam and Eve were tempted. Do you really expect people to believe that he was allowed to live in heaven for at least 3 thousand years after that?

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

#23 May 19, 2012
CMWYW wrote:
<quoted text> This is my proof:-
(Revelation 12:9) So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;
Notice this Satan who was cast down WAS misleading the entire inhabited earth. Who was he misleading djc?
(Revelation 12:9,10)
he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!
Notice this Satan who was accusing these brothers was hurled down. Who were these brothers?
(Revelation 12:11) And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.
Now this scripture tells us plainly that these brothers conquered Satan because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing. This places the throwing out of heaven as happening after Christs death which is thousands of years after when MKIA and other SDA's believe Satan was cast out of heaven.
CMWYW,

I'm afraid your proof is still based on your misconcept that the book of Revelation is solely futurist.

Theologians for centuries have followed the counsel of Isa. 28:10 percept upon percept, line upon line....Why have you not use all the scriptures that deals with this subject.

Though I have already shown you from scriptures on a previous thread I will show you again since your recent memory has fail you.

Rev. 12:9 the title of serpent, who is said to have deceived the whole world is given to Satan. This title "serpent" is referring us back to the Garden of Eden. Satan use this cunning disguise to deceive the Eve and to get Adam to fall, therefore taking dominion from humanity. Gen. 3:1,4. This didn't happen in 1914 A.D but sometime AFTER the creation of Adam and Eve.

Found in these two example of the pagan kings Tyre and Babylon who Satan used to advance his own agenda of rebellion, we're given a look behind the scenes of Satan's own fall, from heaven.

Ezekiel 28:12-18 vs.13 reveals that the garden of Eden was in original in heaven and Satan once walked this garden. vs. 15,16 Satan was once perfect until sin arise in him. God reveals that Satan was casted out of heaven and would suffer the fate of being eventually destroyed vs. 18.

Isaiah 14:12-14 plainly reveals that Satan was casted out of heaven because of his pride and his desire to be God.

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

#24 May 19, 2012
CMWYW wrote:
<quoted text> This is my proof:-
(Revelation 12:9,10)
Now this scripture tells us plainly that these brothers conquered Satan because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing. This places the throwing out of heaven as happening after Christs death which is thousands of years after when MKIA and other SDA's believe Satan was cast out of heaven.
We were "credited" with Christ's grace (His promise to be our ransom for sin) when mankind 1st fell.Why. 2 Tim.1:9

Was not the promise of a REDEEMER not given immediately afterward in Gen. 3:15.

CMWYW you seem to think that grace wasn't establish until AFTER the death of Christ but the scriptures tells us otherwise.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#25 May 19, 2012
djconklin wrote:
>This is my proof:-
Contrary to Scripure and history. Satan was cast out of heaven BEFORE Adam and Eve were tempted. Do you really expect people to believe that he was allowed to live in heaven for at least 3 thousand years after that?
If the bible says

Job 1:6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

We know that he was allowed in heaven.

and if the bible says this

Rev 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;

are we supposed to believe that Satan was misleading the entire NON-inhabited earth.

and if the bible says this

Rev 12:9.....he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.

Am i supposed to believe the circular reasoning of SDA's that Satan could not possibly of still been in heaven after "they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing" just because SDA's say so?

I do not approach bible study in this way.

The bible is clear about the fact that Satan had not been cast down out of heaven till after "the blood of the lamb" or "after Jesus died for us"

It doesn't matter what my preconceptions are of scripture. These scriptures are clear to me and have taught me the truth. They are free of ambiguity

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#26 May 19, 2012
Mr_Know it all wrote:
Ezekiel 28:12-18 vs.13 reveals that the garden of Eden was in original in heaven and Satan once walked this garden. vs. 15,16 Satan was once perfect until sin arise in him. God reveals that Satan was casted out of heaven and would suffer the fate of being eventually destroyed vs. 18.
Except nowhere does it say Satan was cast out of heaven here.
Mr_Know it all wrote:
Isaiah 14:12-14 plainly reveals that Satan was casted out of heaven because of his pride and his desire to be God.
Again this is where you have mistaken Lucifer or the shining one for Satan.

Isaiah 14:12-14 “O how you have fallen from heaven, you shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, you who were disabling the nations! 13 As for you, you have said in your heart,‘To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north. 14 I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the Most High.’ 15 “However, down to Sheol you will be brought,

If you understood what Sheol was you would instantly understand that this could not be a Spirit being as Sheol is the common grave of mankind.

Nevertheless the scripture goes onto say 16 Those seeing you will gaze even at you; they will give close examination even to you,[saying,]‘Is this the man that was agitating the earth, that was making kingdoms rock,

Yes this person was a man not Satan himself.

We also get a better understanding if we understand the book of Daniel.

The lofty grandeur and far-reaching dominion were also represented in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream by a symbolic tree with its height ‘reaching the heavens.’—Da 4:20-22.

The term “heavens” can also refer to other ruling powers that are exalted or lifted up above their subject peoples. The very dynasty of Babylonian kings that Nebuchadnezzar represented is described at Isaiah 14:12 as being starlike, a “shining one, son of the dawn.” By the conquest of Jerusalem ......, that Babylonian dynasty lifted its throne “above the stars of God,” these “stars” evidently referring to the Davidic line of Judean kings (even as the Heir to the Davidic throne, Christ Jesus, is called “the bright morning star” at Re 22:16; compare Nu 24:17). By its overthrow of the divinely authorized Davidic throne, the Babylonian dynasty, in effect, exalted itself heaven high.(Isa 14:13, 14)

So you see it is more like a catalog of interpretation errors that has made you not able to accept Rev 12s clear implications and UN-ambiguous teaching.

Kingfisher

Gulf Breeze, FL

#27 May 19, 2012
Early Writings, pp,261,53-54 Ellen said Satan was in heaven in the Holy Place on Oct 22, 1844 listening and answering prayers of non-SDA's who did not believe the IJ. Let's hear the spin on this one!

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

#28 May 20, 2012
CMWYW wrote:
<quoted text>
If the bible says
Job 1:6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.
We know that he was allowed in heaven.
and if the bible says this
Rev 12:9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;
are we supposed to believe that Satan was misleading the entire NON-inhabited earth.
and if the bible says this
Rev 12:9.....he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.
Am i supposed to believe the circular reasoning of SDA's that Satan could not possibly of still been in heaven after "they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing" just because SDA's say so?
I do not approach bible study in this way.
The bible is clear about the fact that Satan had not been cast down out of heaven till after "the blood of the lamb" or "after Jesus died for us"
It doesn't matter what my preconceptions are of scripture. These scriptures are clear to me and have taught me the truth. They are free of ambiguity
CMWYW you're being deceptive,

I curious on whoever told you that Satan didn't ever have limited access AFTER his explusion from heaven for did He not take dominion of the earth from Adam?

You've seem to miss the point that was made and stated, Satan wasn't allowed to have his residents nor headquarters in heaven for the over 6 millenium until 1914 as the WTS teaches in their 1989 ed. field manuel "Reasoning from the Scriptures".

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

#29 May 20, 2012
CMWYW wrote:
<quoted text> Except nowhere does it say Satan was cast out of heaven here.
<quoted text>
Isaiah 14:12-14 “O how you have fallen from heaven, you shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, you who were disabling the nations! 13 As for you, you have said in your heart,‘To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north. 14 I shall go up above the high places of the clouds; I shall make myself resemble the Most High.’ 15 “However, down to Sheol you will be brought,
If you understood what Sheol was you would instantly understand that this could not be a Spirit being as Sheol is the common grave of mankind.
CMWYW, CMWYW,

Apparently the lauguage of the KJV has confused you.

Isa. 12:12 NIV, YLT states plainly " How you HAVE fallen from heaven O morning star, son of the dawn. You have been CASTED dwon to heaven, you who once laid low the earth."

The issue of the use "shoal" isn't an issue at all for had not God promise to destroy Satan and SIN vs.15? What gave you the idea that Satan was destroyed already?

I notice how you routinely avoided to address Ezekiel 28:12-18 head-on which states in vs. 16 that Satan was indeed casted out to be eventually destroyed.

I'm afraid this isn't SDA "circular reasoning" as the Watchtower have made the use of this reasoning-style so proficiently.

This view of the Isa. 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18 is the view of legitmate theologians in general. These theologians even recognizes that these two scriptures are the closest that the bible records to explaining the origin of Satan and Satan's fall from heaven.

Unfortunately for you, you're still struck in the myth of a 19th century debunk 2520 years prophecy which is this organization's foundational doctrine. A doctrine that has so many fatal flaws that if it had to be label it's nickname would be called dead on arrival.

This doctrine is a faith destroyer, the predictions and the dates associated with it, the distortion of scriptures involving the mediation of Christ, the priesthood of believers, the promises of our reward, the last day events and righteousness by faith to name just a few.

Why have the society disposed of some of the ideas of Russell the prophet-president yet keep the most indefensible one? It's time to throw the baby out instead of just changing (the alleged) dirty water.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#30 May 20, 2012
Mr_Know it all wrote:
<quoted text>
CMWYW you're being deceptive,
I curious on whoever told you that Satan didn't ever have limited access AFTER his explusion from heaven for did He not take dominion of the earth from Adam?
You've seem to miss the point that was made and stated, Satan wasn't allowed to have his residents nor headquarters in heaven for the over 6 millenium until 1914 as the WTS teaches in their 1989 ed. field manuel "Reasoning from the Scriptures".
So he was thrown out of heaven but was allowed to sometimes go back to heaven then he was cast out of heaven after Jesus's death.

Are you making this up as you go along.

Nowhere does it say Satan was cast out of heaven twice. Nowhere does it say he was cast down from mount Zion twice.

When Satan fell from mount Zion he lost his appointed position in Gods organization. He still dwelt as all spirits do in heaven. The bible tells us Satan and his Demons were then cast out of heaven after Christs death.

The bible is clear. It is in Revelation 12 that Satan is cast out of heaven and this is unmistakeably done after Christs death.

The fact that Satan could possess things and do things on earth does not refute the fact that the bible is very clear when Satan was cast down and out of heaven.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#31 May 20, 2012
Mr_Know it all wrote:
<quoted text>
CMWYW, CMWYW,
Apparently the lauguage of the KJV has confused you.
Isa. 12:12 NIV, YLT states plainly " How you HAVE fallen from heaven O morning star, son of the dawn. You have been CASTED dwon to heaven, you who once laid low the earth."
The issue of the use "shoal" isn't an issue at all for had not God promise to destroy Satan and SIN vs.15? What gave you the idea that Satan was destroyed already?
Sheol is not a place that spirits go. Only humans go there in the bible.
Mr_Know it all wrote:
I notice how you routinely avoided to address Ezekiel 28:12-18 head-on which states in vs. 16 that Satan was indeed casted out to be eventually destroyed.
I'm afraid this isn't SDA "circular reasoning" as the Watchtower have made the use of this reasoning-style so proficiently.
This view of the Isa. 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18 is the view of legitimate theologians in general. These theologians even recognizes that these two scriptures are the closest that the bible records to explaining the origin of Satan and Satan's fall from heaven.
Ezekiel 28:14 On the holy mountain of God you proved to be......16 And I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God,

You mistake a mountain for the whole of the heavens.

The Bible, specifically Revelation 12 placed the casting out of heaven of Satan and his Demons 1000s of years later.

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

#32 May 20, 2012
CMWYW wrote:
<quoted text> So he was thrown out of heaven but was allowed to sometimes go back to heaven then he was cast out of heaven after Jesus's death.
Are you making this up as you go along.
Nowhere does it say Satan was cast out of heaven twice. Nowhere does it say he was cast down from mount Zion twice.
When Satan fell from mount Zion he lost his appointed position in Gods organization. He still dwelt as all spirits do in heaven. The bible tells us Satan and his Demons were then cast out of heaven after Christs death.
The bible is clear. It is in Revelation 12 that Satan is cast out of heaven and this is unmistakeably done after Christs death.
The fact that Satan could possess things and do things on earth does not refute the fact that the bible is very clear when Satan was cast down and out of heaven.
CMWYW,

Once again you're being deceptive,

Why are you trying to now distance yourself from the Watchtower teachings of Satan residing and using heaven as his headquarters until 1914:)

Again, you failed to answer the question, did anyone ever tell you that Satan wasn't never "allowed by God" to show his face in heaven?

Understand this, Satan after his exile from heaven, didn't the divine preprogatives to come and go as he please. I have yet to see any scriptures indictate such.

The book of Job was given to show us a behind the scenes conflict of good versus evil. Mind you this book is writing from the Patriach's age not after the time of Christ's death as you seem to want to believe.

As I have said before your "entire premise" lies in a 19th debunk prophecy and your society's interpretation that Revelation is a futurist book. I shatter both of these theory-ology belefs using scriptures. I'm still waiting for any Watchtower devotee on the JW forum to stand up to try to refute my findings.

I find it extremely comical that you have the audacity to say the bible is clear yet you know for your ownself that the society had stated that the scriptures CANNOT be understood without going through the channels of the Watchtower.

Time to throw the baby out with the dirty water.

www.come2jesus.com
Rockroller

Lake Arrowhead, CA

#33 May 20, 2012
CMWYW wrote:
<quoted text> This is my proof:-
(Revelation 12:9) So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;
Notice this Satan who was cast down WAS misleading the entire inhabited earth. Who was he misleading djc?
(Revelation 12:9,10)
he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!
Notice this Satan who was accusing these brothers was hurled down. Who were these brothers?
(Revelation 12:11) And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death.
Now this scripture tells us plainly that these brothers conquered Satan because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing. This places the throwing out of heaven as happening after Christs death which is thousands of years after when MKIA and other SDA's believe Satan was cast out of heaven.
Lucifer/Satan and his angels/demons were sent by God the Father as 'Watchers" and "Teachers" to the humans created on this earth WAY before Adam was made out of the mud. Lucifer used a 'legal' issue against God (Ying vs Yang) to trick a third of the angels to be on the side of Satan. It's clear that Satan usurped God by causing everyone (all races) to believe that he was their God, and that is why God had to have two human witnesses to teach the world who the true and only God was all about.

He put them to a test to make sure they would testify correctly, but Satan got to them and caused them to fail that test.

Satan could visit heaven (read the book of Job), but was finally cast down to this earth and could NOT get back to heaven, when Michael was placed in the womb of Mary so that Jesus could be born as a human but still was and be the Son of God.

When Michael as Jesus paid the penalty for Adam and Eve's sin, and rose on the third day and then later went back to heaven, at that time there was the 'war' in heaven against Michael and His angels verses Lucifer/Satan and his angels and forever, Satan was cast down to this earth and into the abyss to be let out at the start of the last 5 months of the 42 months during the time of trouble.

Yes, Satan and the demons are now in the abyss and that is why they do not appear in a physical sense right now. They do appear in a 'spritiual' sense though which is why they must dwell in someone to function.

Paul said that his god gave him a messenger of Satan (a demon) and this was what Paul called a thorn in the flesh. This demon was placed into Saul long before being blinded by the light from Satan--and not Jesus.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#34 May 20, 2012
Mr_Know it all wrote:
<quoted text>
CMWYW,
Once again you're being deceptive,
Why are you trying to now distance yourself from the Watchtower teachings of Satan residing and using heaven as his headquarters until 1914:)
Again, you failed to answer the question, did anyone ever tell you that Satan wasn't never "allowed by God" to show his face in heaven?
Understand this, Satan after his exile from heaven, didn't the divine preprogatives to come and go as he please. I have yet to see any scriptures indictate such.
The book of Job was given to show us a behind the scenes conflict of good versus evil. Mind you this book is writing from the Patriach's age not after the time of Christ's death as you seem to want to believe.
As I have said before your "entire premise" lies in a 19th debunk prophecy and your society's interpretation that Revelation is a futurist book. I shatter both of these theory-ology belefs using scriptures. I'm still waiting for any Watchtower devotee on the JW forum to stand up to try to refute my findings.
I find it extremely comical that you have the audacity to say the bible is clear yet you know for your ownself that the society had stated that the scriptures CANNOT be understood without going through the channels of the Watchtower.
Time to throw the baby out with the dirty water.
www.come2jesus.com
This refuted nothing to do with the subject at hand. You believe that you shatter my beliefs in your head but in reality my beliefs are not only more convincing but easily explainable when compared to the whole volume of scriptures to do with this.

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses; I chose to become one because, out of all groups claiming to be christian, I found their beliefs to be most in line with the Bible. They actually worship God, respect his name and understand the relationship between him and his Son. If I didn't think that to be the case, I would join whoever I found to be more scriptural. Perhaps some of you automatically view me as insincere, ignorant, or 'swine' because of that view, but I have valid reasons for my beliefs that hold up to scrutiny, if I/we didn't, it'd be hardly advisable for us to go to your door to discuss these things.

You really need to address my points fully.

1) Can you show me a scripture that says that Satan was cast out of heaven prior to being cast out of heaven after Christs sacrifice.

2) Please tell me is the only place in the bible that Satan is said to be cast out of heaven in Rev 12:9? If not please show me the scripture that says different.

3) What is your interpretation of Sheol and in what way does the bible apply and use this scripture? What is Sheol? A deep descriptive biblical based meaning is what i am looking for?

4) Am i wrong for believing that Satan was cast out of heaven after Christs death?

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#35 May 20, 2012
Rockroller wrote:
<quoted text> Lucifer/Satan and his angels/demons were sent by God the Father as 'Watchers" and "Teachers" to the humans created on this earth WAY before Adam was made out of the mud. Lucifer used a 'legal' issue against God (Ying vs Yang) to trick a third of the angels to be on the side of Satan. It's clear that Satan usurped God by causing everyone (all races) to believe that he was their God, and that is why God had to have two human witnesses to teach the world who the true and only God was all about.
He put them to a test to make sure they would testify correctly, but Satan got to them and caused them to fail that test.
Satan could visit heaven (read the book of Job), but was finally cast down to this earth and could NOT get back to heaven, when Michael was placed in the womb of Mary so that Jesus could be born as a human but still was and be the Son of God.
When Michael as Jesus paid the penalty for Adam and Eve's sin, and rose on the third day and then later went back to heaven, at that time there was the 'war' in heaven against Michael and His angels verses Lucifer/Satan and his angels and forever, Satan was cast down to this earth and into the abyss to be let out at the start of the last 5 months of the 42 months during the time of trouble.
Yes, Satan and the demons are now in the abyss and that is why they do not appear in a physical sense right now. They do appear in a 'spritiual' sense though which is why they must dwell in someone to function.
Paul said that his god gave him a messenger of Satan (a demon) and this was what Paul called a thorn in the flesh. This demon was placed into Saul long before being blinded by the light from Satan--and not Jesus.


1)Are you saying Paul was demon possessed?
2)What is your understanding of Sheol?
3)Do you believe Satan is a human?

Thanks

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

#36 May 20, 2012
CMWYW wrote:
<quoted text>
1) Can you show me a scripture that says that Satan was cast out of heaven prior to being cast out of heaven after Christs sacrifice.
2) Please tell me is the only place in the bible that Satan is said to be cast out of heaven in Rev 12:9? If not please show me the scripture that says different.
3) What is your interpretation of Sheol and in what way does the bible apply and use this scripture? What is Sheol? A deep descriptive biblical based meaning is what i am looking for?
4) Am i wrong for believing that Satan was cast out of heaven after Christs death?
CMWYW you're being silly and still not answering questions, mind you.

1.) Done 2.)Done 3.) has no merit 4.) Absolutely

I hate to break it to you but if your understanding of Revelation as your Watchtower has deemed as being a FUTURIST book then of course your understanding of ANY great controversy historial content revealed in this epistle will be distorted as well.
If you think your WT leaders are correct then simply prove me wrong from scriptures. Just like you did on your supposedly explaination of the term "generation", not:)

I printed these incriminating and embarassing theory-ology doctrines to help out with your recent memory-loss.

Reasoning from scriptures Ed. 89 p.96,97
How, then is the time calculated down to 1914? Counting 2520 years from Oct. of 607 B.C.E brings us to the time early October of 1914 C.E.
What happened at that time? Jehovah entrusted rulership over mankind to his own Son, Jesus Christ, glorified at heaven.
Then why is there still so much wickedness on earth? AFTER Christ was enthroned, Satan and his demons, were hurled out of heaven and down on this earth(Rev. 12:12)

Both ideas are indeed both linked as I have pointed at to you in my last post and have now shown you with the evidence. These are your premises for your error belief that Satan MUST remain in heaven to be kicked out of heaven later in future.

Now, heres the kicker. Brace yourself!

If Satan was indeed expelled from heaven after Christ's death as you now alleged say to believe then by your own admission your Watchtower was wrong to assess the book of Revelation as being futurist.
This organization would also be wrong that Satan was expelled in 1914 when they said Christ were to be enthroned.

These errors are unexplainably and only serve to further fatal flaws to this organization's foundational doctrine of the borrow 19th debunk "2520 year prophecy".

It will only get worser for your theory-ology as we continue this dialogue.

TIP: The best way to get yourself out of a hole is to stop digging.

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

#37 May 20, 2012
Rockroller wrote:
<quoted text> Lucifer/Satan and his angels/demons were sent by God the Father as 'Watchers" and "Teachers" to the humans created on this earth WAY before Adam was made out of the mud. Lucifer used a 'legal' issue against God (Ying vs Yang) to trick a third of the angels to be on the side of Satan. It's clear that Satan usurped God by causing everyone (all races) to believe that he was their God, and that is why God had to have two human witnesses to teach the world who the true and only God was all about.
He put them to a test to make sure they would testify correctly, but Satan got to them and caused them to fail that test.
Satan could visit heaven (read the book of Job), but was finally cast down to this earth and could NOT get back to heaven, when Michael was placed in the womb of Mary so that Jesus could be born as a human but still was and be the Son of God.
When Michael as Jesus paid the penalty for Adam and Eve's sin, and rose on the third day and then later went back to heaven, at that time there was the 'war' in heaven against Michael and His angels verses Lucifer/Satan and his angels and forever, Satan was cast down to this earth and into the abyss to be let out at the start of the last 5 months of the 42 months during the time of trouble.
Yes, Satan and the demons are now in the abyss and that is why they do not appear in a physical sense right now. They do appear in a 'spritiual' sense though which is why they must dwell in someone to function.
Paul said that his god gave him a messenger of Satan (a demon) and this was what Paul called a thorn in the flesh. This demon was placed into Saul long before being blinded by the light from Satan--and not Jesus.
www.bibleschools.com

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#38 May 20, 2012
Mr_Know it all wrote:
CMWYW you're being silly and still not answering questions, mind you.
1.) Done 2.)Done 3.) has no merit 4.) Absolutely
I hate to break it to you but if your understanding of Revelation as your Watchtower has deemed as being a FUTURIST book then of course your understanding of ANY great controversy historial content revealed in this epistle will be distorted as well.
If you think your WT leaders are correct then simply prove me wrong from scriptures.
I have done. Read Rev 12:7-12. This portion of scripture is still un-refuted and un-explained by anybody on this forum. No amounts of reading into other parts of the bible things that simply are not there, will change these scriptures
Mr_Know it all wrote:

I printed these incriminating and embarassing theory-ology doctrines to help out with your recent memory-loss.
Reasoning from scriptures Ed. 89 p.96,97
How, then is the time calculated down to 1914? Counting 2520 years from Oct. of 607 B.C.E brings us to the time early October of 1914 C.E.
What happened at that time? Jehovah entrusted rulership over mankind to his own Son, Jesus Christ, glorified at heaven.
Then why is there still so much wickedness on earth? AFTER Christ was enthroned, Satan and his demons, were hurled out of heaven and down on this earth(Rev. 12:12)
Yes that is correct. Our understanding does not just stop there we can explain the child and the women that Satan attacks and makes flee into the wilderness for a 1260 days or 3 and a half years from 1919-1922 and then the vicious persecution that followed in 1922. In fact we have times, names and places for Revelation that fits with our history perfectly. So quoting our literature will be of no use to you.
Mr_Know it all wrote:

Now, heres the kicker. Brace yourself!
If Satan was indeed expelled from heaven after Christ's death as you now alleged say to believe then by your own admission your Watchtower was wrong to assess the book of Revelation as being futurist.
This organization would also be wrong that Satan was expelled in 1914 when they said Christ were to be enthroned.
Okay please answer this. Is 1914 after Christs death or not?

Your answer will explain your apparent newly discovered contradiction.
Rockroller

Lake Arrowhead, CA

#39 May 20, 2012
djconklin wrote:
>This is my proof:-
Contrary to Scripure and history. Satan was cast out of heaven BEFORE Adam and Eve were tempted. Do you really expect people to believe that he was allowed to live in heaven for at least 3 thousand years after that?
Or, like the book of Enoch presents as a picture, Lucifer and his angels were sent to this world as watchers and teachers for God, but Satan usurped God and wanted this world as his own and argued that if God was the creator, then just as the ying and yang, he was the destroyer god and had all of those living here believing that he was their god.

It is clear that Satan could come and go in the heavens by looking at the book of Job, but was cast down to this earth only when Christ went back to heaven for it was for him at that time.

He was then cast into the abyss so that he and his demons could not again appear in their physical form, and that is why they must dwell in people or animals in their spirit form until they are let out of their abyss at the start of the last five months of this earth's history. At that time Satan, as the second beast of Rev. 13, comes as the Christ but is actually the antichrist.

Take a peak at this video and let me know what you think:
&fe ature=email

Since: Jan 11

Jackson, TN

#40 May 21, 2012
CMWYW wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay please answer this. Is 1914 after Christs death or not?
Your answer will explain your apparent newly discovered contradiction.
My friend CMWYW,

I'm afraid not matter how you may refused to ADMIT these facts but the Watchtower's private interpretation of a supposed 2520 year prophecy and their assumption to interpreted the book of Revelation as being futurist continues to nullify any arguments you claim to have.
Neither of those two above errors can be proven by legitimate scriptures. These errors are on which your entire premise are builted. It is the reason why you MUST believe that Satan have remain in heaven until a certain date.

Your premise and any side arguments were dead on arrival and served as a further exposure of the WT theory-ology. I find it not to bright of you to have the auducity to bring this non-issue up again after it was defeated recently just on a prior thread.

You asked for a scripture which reveals that Satan was casted out of heaven AFTER I had shown you two O.T texts already. Well turn to 2 Peter 2:4.

"For God spared not the angels that sinned, but casted them down to hell, and delivered them unto chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment"

Honestly,... does this text or the ones I shown you from the books of Ezekiel and Isaiah seem to give you the idea that this happen 98 years ago?

It's painfully obvious to me you have simply dismiss the counsel of Isa. 28:10 of compare scripture with scripture.

Using your distorted reasonings you would have us to believe that Rev. 12:7 which talks about war in heaven, lasted for over 1880 years AFTER Christ death on the cross.

Using your distorted reasonings you would have us to believe that Christ's enthronement and authority WASN'T established until 1914.

These distorted reasonings places you even further into an unending PARADOX.

Matt.28:18 Christ states AFTER his resurrection "ALL power/AUTHORITY is given me in heaven and earth"

Sometime after the 40 days of Christ's resurrection of teaching His disciples the deeper things of God, we're shown in The epistles of Eph. 1:20-22 and Hebrews 7 to name just a few, reveals that Christ was indeed inaugurated as our KING-Priest after the order of Melchizedek the TYPE fulfilled by the ANTI-TYPE.

These additional scriptures that I have presented unfortunately for you further eradicates the WT's argument for the date of 1914 A.D as time of the "enthronement of Christ".

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#41 May 21, 2012
Mr_Know it all wrote:
You asked for a scripture which reveals that Satan was casted out of heaven AFTER I had shown you two O.T texts already. Well turn to 2 Peter 2:4.
But you didn't provide a scripture at all that said Satan was cast out of heaven before he was cast out of heaven in Revelation 12. What you provided was your assumptions and misunderstanding of about 3 scriptures that conflict with Rev 12.

You expect me to believe your assumptions about scriptures that don't actually say Satan was cast out of heaven and that mistake Satan for a human, say that he was thrown down from his established place of mount Zion and into somewhere that is translated incorrectly as hell.

“Tartarus” is found only in 2Pe 2:4. It is included in the Greek verb tar-ta-ro-o, and so in rendering the verb, the phrase “by throwing them into Tartarus” has been used.

In the Iliad, by the ancient poet Homer, the word tar-ta-ros denotes an underground prison as far below Hades as the earth is below heaven. Those confined in it were not human souls, but the lesser gods, spirits, namely, Cronus and the other Titans who had rebelled against Zeus (Jupiter). It was the prison established by the mythical gods for the spirits whom they had driven from the celestial regions, and it was below the Hades where human souls were thought to be confined at death. In mythology tar-ta-ros was the lowest of the lower regions and a place of darkness. It enveloped all the underworld just as the heavens enveloped all that was above the earth. Therefore, in pagan Greek mythology tar-ta-ros was reputed to be a place for confining, not human souls, but Titan spirits, and a place of darkness and abasement.
In Job 40:15 (40:20, LXX) we read concerning Behemoth:“And when he has gone up to a steep mountain, he causes joy to the quadrupeds in the deep (“in the tartarus”).” In Job 41:31, 32 (41:23, 24, LXX) we read concerning Leviathan:“He makes the deep boil like a brazen caldron; and he regards the sea as a pot of ointment, and the lowest part of the deep (“the tartarus of the abyss”) as a captive: he reckons the deep as his range.” The use of tar-ta-ros in these verses in LXX makes it plain that the word was used to signify a low place, yes, the “lowest part” of the abyss.—Compare 2Pe 2:4 ftn.

The inspired Scriptures do not consign any human souls to tar-ta-os but consign there only spirit creatures, namely,“the angels that sinned.” Their being cast into tar-ta-ros denotes the deepest abasement for them while they are still living. This serves as punishment for their sin of rebellion against the Most High God. The apostle Peter associates darkness with their low condition, saying that God “delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.”—2Pe 2:4.

The pagans in their mythological traditions concerning Cronus and the rebellious Titan gods presented a distorted view regarding the abasement of rebellious spirits. In contrast, Peter’s use of the verb tar-tar-oo,“cast into Tartarus,” does not signify that “the angels that sinned” were cast into the pagan mythological Tartarus, but that they were abased by the Almighty God from their heavenly place and privileges and were delivered over to a condition of deepest mental darkness respecting God’s bright purposes. Also they had only a dark outlook as to their own eventuality, which the Scriptures show is everlasting destruction along with their ruler, Satan the Devil. Therefore, Tartarus denotes the lowest condition of abasement for those rebellious angels.

In the inspired Scriptures, Tartarus bears no relationship to Hades, which is the common grave of the human dead. The sinful angels and the dead human souls are not associated together in tar-ta-ros as a place of eternal conscious torment of creatures. Tartarus will pass away when the Supreme Judge destroys the rebellious angels presently in that condition of abasement.

You so far have not convinced me that you have the truth.......

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