Question for those who reject Paul.
Posted in the Seventh-day Adventist Forum
#1 Jan 23, 2013
Do you keep YHVH's moed (Feasts)?
If not why?
#2 Jan 23, 2013
Are you a Jesuit?
#3 Jan 23, 2013
No I'm not a Jesuit, that is an ignorant question.
Do you keep YHVH's feasts?
#4 Jan 23, 2013
Why is it ignorant?
to keep a feast is to deny What the Cross did. so No I do not.
The feast all pointed to Christ's work
#5 Jan 23, 2013
The FEASTS of Israel are/were ONLY for literal Israel at the time that they were the Kingdom of Heaven by Covenant. When Israel rejected the Covenant their King rejected them (Matt. 21:43), so it is no longer necessary for the NEW Kingdom of Heaven to keep the feasts of the OLD Kingdom.
I find it interesting that although Paul in Col. 2 said that we don't need to worry about feast days or Sabbaths any longer, he never gave up his 'jewishness' in continuing to refer to his instruction under Gameliel, and in his keeping of certain rites of the Jewish religion, such as the Rite of Purification. We know that he believed from his visions that all Israel would be saved because they were STILL the chosen people of God, even after they rejected their King and put Him on the cross.
We know from his writings that Paul was neither an eyewitness to the teachings of Jesus OR that he received ANY information from the original Disciple of Jesus because if he had he would have know that Jesus said (in Matt. 21:43) that He had taken the Trusteeship of the Covenant AWAY from Israel and would give it to ANOTHER Kingdom who would bear the fruit of the Kingdom of the Heavens. As it is, and as he state, Paul fully believed that 'his people' would all eventually be saved. This is opposite of what Jesus taught. Also, Paul believed that there were TWO roads to salvation; one for the Jew, and the other for the Gentile - the Law for the Jew, Grace for the Gentile.
In His great commission to His own eyewitness disciples Jesus states plainly that they were to go the ALL the World, baptizing in the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit, making disciples of ALL nations. So the idea of Paul that God separated the Jew from the Gentile and supplied DIFFERENT forms of salvation for each is anathema to what Jesus taught. Therefore, Paul's statement that God made him the 'apostle' to the Gentiles' cannot have come from the same God that gave the original disciples their marching orders in Matt. 28:19 and on. This shows that what Paul, and you, believe to be true CANNOT POSSIBLY in any way-shape-or form be the truth. THAT is why I reject Paul as a true apostle of Jesus.
#6 Jan 23, 2013
The Feasts point to his future work as well.
The seven days of unleavened bread point to the seven thousand years that Jesus (the unleavened bread from heaven) is bringing mankind out of the bondage of sin.
The reason there is seven days is because God's plan is seven thousand years long, we are only almost 6,000 years into it, so the feast of unleavened breads spiritual points have not been completely fulfilled.
The seven weeks of harvest counting toward Pentecost also pictures the seven thousand year plan of God, just as the seventh day Sabbath does. It shows that God is working for seven thousand years to harvest mankind. Then on the fiftieth day, we'll all be harvested and finally in the Kingdom of Heaven. This has not been comepletely fulfilled yet. This day pictures the birthday of the church, the day the law was given on Mt. Sinai, and the day the Holy Spirit was given. It pictures when we'll all have God's law written in out hearts and minds and we'll all have God's spirit.
Most assume that unleavened bread and Pentecost has been fulfilled but they have only been partially fulfilled.
Trumpets, on the first day of the seventh month. Again the number seven picturing God's seven thousand year plan. It also pictures the seven last trumpets of revelation, and then the final seventh trump when Christ will return. Is this fulfilled?
Atonement, pictures Christ's death for our past sins as represented by the first Goat in the sanctuary ceremony. Pictures Christ's role as our High Priest and Advocate standing for us before the Father. And also, contrary to SDA teaching, it pictures the confessed sins that we place on Jesus throughout our lives, just as John said if we sin when we confess them Jesus will forgive them. This is why Aaron confessed the sins on the live goat.
The live goat pictures Christ taking our confessed sins and removing (meaning of azazul or goat of removal) our sins as far as east is from west.
Satan does not, nor ever will bear our sins no matter the lie that SDA teach.
Has this been fulfilled?
Seven days of tabernacles. Once again sevcen picturing the seven thousand years that God has given mankind to dwell in physical temporary bodies, searching for our permanent homes in his Kingdom.
Tabernacles shows that we are pilgrims in this world searching for a Kingdom that is permanent.
Has this been fulfilled yet?
The Eighth day, this pictures when God's plan for mankind has been completely accomplished. The seven thousand years are past, we are spirit like Christ in his Kingdom.
Has this been flfilled.
You guys and your ignorant SDA teachings. You refuse to see the truth, you are so wrapped up in Ellen's lies.
God's Feast days are shadows or types of things yet to come. This is why Paul wrote it in Col. 2 in the future tense. Things to come. Not things that were to come.
Things to come.
You people have so much to learn and the information is out there but all you want to do is follow your SDA Ellen White lies.
I pity all of you, or at least most all of you.
#7 Jan 23, 2013
Again, all you're doing is showing your lack of understanding.
#8 Jan 23, 2013
I follow Scripture not EGW. Sorry your wrong on feast also.
That is 7 day church of god Armstrong theories
#9 Jan 23, 2013
Well, Armstrong learned it from G.G. Rupert a former SDA minister who taught it in South America back in the early 1900's and the feasts are still being kept down there to this day because of G.G.
I bet you didn't know that.
Now there was a SDA who had a brain. So few today have.
Well, we've proven that you don't know a lot of things.
#10 Jan 23, 2013
IF I am wrong then please show me 'where'. Everything I said is supported by Paul's OWN words. I did not make any of it up. You have your own perspective, and I have mine. I am not belittling your beliefs, because many years ago I was right where you are now. You are NOT unintelligent, and neither am I. You asked me earlier as to why I thought you believe as you do. My answer is that you believe partly from what you have been taught by others in whom you trust, and partly because you are truth seeker and want to know the truth. This is EXACTLY the same for me. Since this IS true then why do you suppose we have such divergent beliefs? We are getting our information FROM THE SAME SOURCE - the Bible. Yet your 'take' on what you have studied is in some cases 180 degs. from my 'take'. Why? You believe you are being led by the Holy Spirit, but so do I. This CANNOT be true for both of us, one of us MUST be wrong, because the Holy Spirit would not tell you one thing and me another. So which one of us is being led by the TRUE Holy Spirit? We each (of course) believe that it is US that has the true Spirit of God guiding us into ALL truth. What is the PROOF? For me it is always and only the words of Jesus Christ which act as the arbiter of TRUTH; so much so that when I hear or read the words of someone OTHER than Jesus I MUST compare those words to HIS words as He gave them to His own eyewitness disciple which He was here in the flesh on earth. The very Words of Jesus, and God in the Law and the Prophets, CONFIRM what the Holy Spirit is telling me. The verifying factor is the WORDS OF GOD, and NOT the Holy Spirit. That is because the Words of God do not change. There is a spirit in the world that masquerades as the Holy Spirit, and THAT 'spirit' tells lies as if they are the truth. You cannot judge the truth of the Spirit by the Spirit alone, you MUST have a verifiable outside source that confirms what the Spirit says. If the spirit that gives you information is giving you information that even in the smallest particular disagrees with the words of Jesus then THAT spirit IS NOT of God, but is OF Satan. It is my belief that it was that masquerading and marauding 'spirit' that gave Paul his gospel. Why? Because Paul's words do not agree with the words of Jesus in every single particular way.
#11 Jan 23, 2013
Ok show you where you are wrong. First you say that the Feasts are only for Israel. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Since you don't accept Paul, do you accept Zechariah? Read Zech 14:16 all flesh will one day keep the Feast of Tabernacles, even Egypt. Read it, read all of Zechariah.
Where else are you wrong, you said that Paul said in Col. 2 that it is not necessary to keep the feast days any longer.
That is not what Paul said. That is your misinterpretation of Paul, as I've said throughout. You people who reject Paul misinterpret him so bad it's funny.
Paul said that the New Moons, Holy Days, and the weekly Sabbaths "are" get that word "are" present tense, even at the time of his writing in Colossia, what some 20 or 30 years after Christ's death. They "are" shadows of "things to come".
Get that, "things to come" future tense, "things to come". Written some 20 or 30 years after Jesus death on the cross they are shadows of things to come.
What was happeneing was that the Pharisees that were telling the gentiles that they had to be circumcised were telling them they had to do various washings before they ate or drank, they had to perform certain sacrifices on the feast days, they had to offer two lambs on the Sabbath. Remember the Pharisees that told them to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses? They wanted them to do all that and much more.
The Pharisees believed that the oral law was just as important as the written law. Read the Mishnah. See just what the Pharisees were requring of the gentiles.
Paul tells them not to let anyone judge them on how they ate or drank or how they kept the new moons or Holy Days or weekly Sabbath.
No where is Paul telling them not to keep them.
That is one big area where you haven't a clue about Paul's writings.
Also, yes he believed that all Israel would be saved. He got this from Ezekiel and the valley of the dry bones.
Those bones were the whole house of Israel. They will be resurected and God will place his spirit in them, and according to Jer. 31 God will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
You know Dennis, it's a shame that you really haven't a clue, and are too blind to realize that you don't.
#12 Jan 23, 2013
Who do you believe gave the Gospel to Paul?
If 3rd Corinthians & the Book of Thomas was placed in the Bible would you accept it as truth and as scripture?
Plz reply with just a few words and not with a sermon.
#13 Jan 23, 2013
Paul (as do you) still believe that the prophecies of the end time for Israel will still take place as described in the OT prophets. Yet those prophecies were ONLY for Literal Israel, as long a Israel God's Kingdom on earth.
ôSeventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place." Dan. 9:24.
In this prophecy God is giving Israel a probationary period of 490 years, in which they were to fulfill ALL of the conditions of the prophecy AND THEN God would 'remarry' them, and make them His permanent Kingdom of Heaven on earth. ALL of the OT prophecies of the End detail how God would come to dwell with men on earth NOT in the Heavens. When those condition were met God would SEAL UP VISION AND PROPHECY. This means that any prophecies of the End that had not been fulfilled BY that time would no longer be necessary and would be laid aside, or sealed, and have no effect on the future.
When Jesus took the Kingdom away from Israel in Matt. 21:43 and gave it to another people Israel became as ANY OTHER NATION - they were no longer the Kingdom of Heaven. This occurred just before the end of the 490 year probationary period that had been given to Israel. When Jesus made this declaration He KNEW it was a lost cause for Israel. Therefore, ANY UNFULFILLED PROPHECY of the end of time for Israel was, at that moment, SEALED UP, making it of none effect.
That is why God had to issue NEW prophecies about the end for the NEW Kingdom of Heaven that would come into being 'without hands'(Dan. 2:34,44). That is why God chose ONE OF HIS OWN disciples to be HIS prophet for the end of time. At the time God gave John the Revelation John himself was NO LONGER a member of the Jewish religion. This had to be the case because if John was still a practicing Jew it would have been impossible for him to have received visions from God, BECAUSE GOD HAD SEAL UP VISION AND PROPHECY FOR ISRAEL at the end of the 490 years (in 33 CE).
The primary reason why Paul could not have been a prophet or apostle of the Living God is because Paul was still a practicing Jew, as is evidenced by his going through the Cleansing Rite in the Temple in Jerusalem. Since Paul was still a practicing Jew (despite his protests to the contrary) God was prohibited by His OWN Law (Dan. 9:24) from giving Paul ANY VISION OR PROPHECY. This is a STAGGERING revelation. Since it was not and could not have been the God of Heaven that gave Paul his visions because Paul was prohibited by Law from receiving them, then from whom did Paul receive these 'visions'? There is only one answer. That answer is Satan.
God was fully able (and did) to make John His prophet because John was no longer a practicing Jew, and did not fall under the restriction given in the prophecy in Dan. 9:24. It is for THIS reason that we can trust John and the other eyewitness disciple, and it is for this reason we cannot trust the words or teachings of Paul.
#14 Jan 23, 2013
Thanks Dennis, as I have explained this problem in other threads on this forum before, but Kevin is new here and probably did not read it.
It is true that the primary problem TODAY is "Who to trust"--Jesus' words or Paul's words. Daniel's prophesies were vital to real truth, but because Daniel said he didn't understand them, most pastors and teachers also don't understand them. Hence the problem Kevin and others such as Marty and Shadrach have attempting to understand the co-mingled words from others other than Jesus Christ Himself.
Paul can be included with this group as he was not privy to what Jesus said or taught, because Paul was not called by Jesus to be a disciple, nor did Paul/Saul of Tarsus ever see or hear Jesus in person! Paul admitted he never learned ANYTHING from any of this from any true apostle, so he had the same problem as Kevin has.
#15 Jan 24, 2013
I don't know who you learned this garbage from, but I can see the Ellen White garbage within it.
Your explanation of Daniel 9 is ludicrous. In fact it is another Gospel one which Paul warned against, and I do believe Paul. I know you don't so any further discussions with you is moot.
Chalk me up as an unbeliever when it comes to your and Rocks other Gospel.
All I have to say is if all the prophecies of Israel in the millenium in the books of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc. have all been replaced by God for a new nation. I'd like to know why Jeremiah prophesied that God would make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and Judah?
I have no doubt that you have some convoluted answer for this.
Which books of the bible do you accept?
Do you accept all the O.T.? Do you only accept Matthew in the New? There's no way even if I were interested in a dialogue with you that I could without know what you accept as scripture and what you don't.
Plus, what is your background. Were you an SDA, and whose teachings do you follow now, or is all this of your own making?
I am interested in where you've gotten these ideas.
#16 Jan 24, 2013
Jesus gave gospel to Paul.
Placed in the bible when? Now? Placed by whom?
If it hadn't been placed in the bible by God up until this point then no I wouldn't accept it. I believe that God caused the bible to be cannonized the way it is.
If he didn't, and he expects us to come down some convoluted path to the truth then he's a dishonest God.
If I shouldn't accept the bible as the word of God should I accept the Koran? Why not? I'm sure I could go to another forum and there'd be people telling me the bible is a lie that the Koran is the truth.
Am I supposed to take you guys who believe in parts of the bible and not other parts more serious than a Muslim? Why should I?
#18 Jan 24, 2013
Kevin said, "I am interested in where you've gotten these ideas."
I find it interesting that you would ask your question of me at the same time that I answered it on another thread in response to GB Jr. Here is a repost of my answer, without the personal references to GB Jr.
Why it is that both of us get the information from which we develop our beliefs from EXACTLY THE SAME SOURCE? How can this possible happen, unless there are two separate and distinct DATA SETS that are contradictory to each other located in that SOURCE, which is the Bible.
IF there are two data sets (rhetorical question) what make the set you use the correct one, and the one I use the incorrect one? Could it not just as easily be the other way around?
Please think carefully about this, because if your understanding is not based in the self honesty that comes from appraising the situation logically then ANY conclusion to which you come can NOT be the correct one. Viewing and seeing only ONE available data set is why the Leaders of the Jews, including the Sanhedrin AND Herod the Great), did not recognize that the Messiah would be born in their generation, and had to be reminded of this by Wise Men from the east. Not recognizing the duality of the data sets available was also the reason that the Leader of the Jews did not at first recognize that Jesus was the promised Messiah after He began His year long ministry at the Wedding at Cana.
Jesus spoke of these TWO Data sets in His parable/prophecy of the Wheat and the Weeds. These data MUST be in the same location, otherwise there would be no way to determine which set is the truth.
You use only ONE data set with which you satisfy your beliefs. Yet according to Jesus there are TWO sets of data that must be considered before a competent assessment of Truth can be found. You are frustrated with me (and RR and Danno) because we don't use the same exclusive information that you do from which we formulate our beliefs. It is ALWAYS frustrating for everyone who sincerely believes that THEY have the truth to discover that other people don't see the truth in exactly the same way as do they. The tendency is to take the seeming rejection of the totality of their truth as a personal affront, and an insult to their personal intelligence and decision making capability. You have express this in no uncertain terms a number of times to both me, and RR and Danno.
NO ONE on the forum is unintelligent, or even unlearned in Scripture; yet there are constant disagreements about truth. Jesus prayed for Unity in His pastoral prayer in John 17, yet it is evident by our differing views that we do not share the unity for which He prayed. Why? I have given my explanation in the preceding paragraphs, the synopsis of which is that we don't have unity because we are not unified in what we consider to be VALID data from which we each produce TRUTH. Until we figure out how to do this there will never be unity within the Kingdom of Heaven.
#19 Jan 24, 2013
I haven't completely read your post yet, but I'm going to.
I just need to know one thing before I can go on correctly.
You say that we receive our information from two different data sets. O.k. fine, my data set is the bible as most know it from Genesis to Revelation.
before we can go on you need to tell me what your data set is. If it's parts of the same data set that I use then you'll have to tell me just when the set you used became a seperate data set, who seperated it from the rest of the bible, and when was it seperated.
I will not give credence just to someone who doesn't agree with one or a few writers or books, so they just decided to reject them on their own.
If there are two legitimate data sets, as you are telling me, tell me how the other set got it's authority.
#20 Jan 24, 2013
Was God dishonest or unfair when he allowed SATAN into the GARDEN of EDEN without WARNING the couple that satan would be allowed in the HOLY Garden and would try to decieve and lie to them and cause them to die? yes or no
Was God fair to us by warning us in MATT 24: 4-11-24 & in Matt 13: 24-26 & in REV 2: 2 of satan's deception? yes or no
God does not control the RCC in their dicision to leave out the books of Thomas and Philip and ENOCH and 13th chapter of DANIEL from the Bible! If GOD did not want Daniel Chapter 13 to enter the Bible he would NOT have allowed or inspired DANIEL to WRITE it! Agree?
God doe's not control SATAN on whom he chooses to decieve. God has given satan a free hand to create many christians denomination whith different Gospel & dotrines and much confusion.
I place my TRUST on the words of JESUS recorded by his chosen apostles that ate with him in the LAST SUPPER!!
Paul, Luke, Mark & Barnabas were NOT there. I feel safer in just accepting the GOSPEL & writings by Matthew & John. This is my choice and dicision which I will give account for on my judgment day.
I have ALL I need in the GOSPEL by Matthew & John to find the TRUTH!
#21 Jan 24, 2013
As Dennis pointed out and you verified, you have failed to read all of 'our' posts and check it out with the scripture provided. This may be why you ask the same questions over and over.
Matthew 13's Wheat and Tare prophecy make it very clear that there WOULD be at least two different understandings by people who read the words found in the New Testament. Do you agree? But no one would discover the difference until just before the time for harvest (the time of trouble). Right? And please NOTE who it is that makes this discovery! Not everyone finds this out!
So right off we can know that the difference is not being good or evil as that has been known for ever.
Now ask yourself why there are so many different Christian denominations in the world, each believing they have the real truth IF they all get their belief from the same bible as we all have? What is the common denominator? Faith?
Now ask yourself what would you use to TEST all of the different beliefs in all of the many thousands of different Christian churchs, not to mention the Catholic church where we got the bible we have today, from in the beginning?
Now place yourself in court (the USA) and lets say you are going to argue your belief over my belief before a jury--ok? What type of evidence would you use to support your belief? Would your evidence show an un-broken chain from the one who said the words to the words you are using? Or, would your evidence be called 'hearsay' evidence because there is no one who could testify to the truthfullness of that evidence?(Circular Reasoning)
Get the picture? Put it another way, who's words trump all other words? Why?
Now sit back and decide if your belief comes from faith and hearsay evidence or from facts from the words of Jesus given to us by His eye and ear witnesses, Matthew and John?
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