Once Saved Always Saved, did Christ t...

Once Saved Always Saved, did Christ teach it?

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SDA

Fort Lauderdale, FL

#1 May 21, 2011
Where did this belief come from, it wasnt in the church with the apostles when Christ left them on earth. The early church didnt teach it, so where did it appear. It seems the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine originated with John Calvin and was never a teaching of the Christian Church from its beginning until John Calvin.

John Jefferson Davis wrote an article titled:“The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine”[Journal of Evangelical Theological Society 34:2 (June 1991)]. Three things make this article of great value. First, it was written by a well-known and highly respected Calvinist theologian. Second, it covers the key people and church groups on the topic. Third, it demonstrates that “once saved, always saved” or unconditional eternal security was not a doctrine that was taught by the ancient church, nor for that manner, by any well-known theologian before John Calvin. This doctrine is, in fact, completely foreign in the history of Christianity.

While the first extensive discussion of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is found in Augustine’s Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance, written around A. D. 429, Augustine believed it was possible to experience the justifying grace of God and yet not persevere to the end. Augustine did believe God’s elect would certainly persevere to the end, but he denied that a person could know they were in the elect and he also warned it was possible to be justified but not among the elect. Not until Calvin was unconditional election, permanent regeneration, and certitude of final perseverance all connected.

James Akin, a Catholic theologian, said in a debate with Calvinist theologian James White that no one before Calvin taught that predestination to grace automatically entails predestination to glory:

"You can check that out for yourself. I did. I searched multiple books and called half a dozen Calvinist seminaries, talking to their systematic theology and church history professors, and no one could name a person before Calvin who taught this thesis. They all said Calvin was the first. I even called John Jefferson Davis, a scholar who published an article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society on the history of this doctrine, a man who is himself a Calvinist, but who has researched the history of this doctrine thoroughly, and he said Calvin was the first to teach it."
TheWingsOfWisdom

Germany

#2 May 21, 2011
Are you saved?

And if you say "yes".

What are you saved "for" or "from"?
Historic SDA

United States

#3 May 21, 2011
Those who believe and teach this heresy do not have a clue what they are saved from or what it means to be saved. They still continue to live in sin just as they did before they made this pernicious boast "I'm saved."! They are baptized into this insane belief, and they go down devils and come up wet devils, there is no visible change in their activities, habits, or life accept a new lie to tell. So it begs the question above, "What are you saved from?" The usual reply is insults and nothing sensible.
TheWingsOfWisdom

Germany

#4 May 21, 2011
Historic SDA wrote:
Those who believe and teach this heresy do not have a clue what they are saved from or what it means to be saved. They still continue to live in sin just as they did before they made this pernicious boast "I'm saved."! They are baptized into this insane belief, and they go down devils and come up wet devils, there is no visible change in their activities, habits, or life accept a new lie to tell. So it begs the question above, "What are you saved from?" The usual reply is insults and nothing sensible.
Are you saved?

And if you say "yes".

What are you saved "for" or "from"?
Don from Canada

Barrie, Canada

#5 May 21, 2011
TheWingsOfWisdom wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you saved?
And if you say "yes".
What are you saved "for" or "from"?
Saved from Satan, sin and eternal death. Released from the contract with the serpent in Genesis.
Saved for our rightful Lord and Master Jesus Christ and his Father, their Divine Purpose, communion, eternal life. In short, redeemed to the path and purpose of Adam before the fall.
Doesn't everyone know this? Or am I missing the point of the question?
Don from Canada

Barrie, Canada

#6 May 21, 2011
"Once saved, always saved" isn't even logical, let alone spiritual. Let's use the Titanic as a loose example: The passengers couldn't help that the boat hit the iceberg. Those fortunate enough to be pulled on a dinghy were "saved". This doesn't mean that the person saved couldn't jump back in. The people in the dinghy, for the sake of this analogy, would respect the person's decision and leave them to their choice.
Christ will not be crucified afresh. One who doesn't respect being saved, won't be saved a second time. No one can pluck you from God's hand; but it doesn't say you can't jump from it.

While I don't know the origin of "once saved" it fits as Catholic doctrine. This allows for a life of sin and unrepentance, provided one confesses. Two major strikes against Calvin are this topic and the burning of the Arian Servetus.
I hear many people applaud him...but I don't get it. Whenever did Christ burn anyone? Hmm. And the pope? Aha! Last I checked, murder was evil. But once saved, always saved, right?
Don from Canada

Barrie, Canada

#7 May 21, 2011
....and it is the overcomer, he who perseveres to the end who is saved. That is the opposite of Calvin.
"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God….He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death….To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it….And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron….He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels….Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name….To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Revelation 2:7,11,17,26-27; 3:5,12,21).
Shadrach

Santa Clara, CA

#8 May 21, 2011
Don from Canada wrote:
....and it is the overcomer, he who perseveres to the end who is saved. That is the opposite of Calvin.
"To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God….He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death….To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it….And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron….He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels….Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him My new name….To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Revelation 2:7,11,17,26-27; 3:5,12,21).
And all that overcome, were His from the beginning. Created for His pleasure and good purpose Eph 1:4
TheWingsOfWisdom

Sweden

#9 May 21, 2011
Don from Canada wrote:
<quoted text>
Saved from Satan, sin and eternal death. Released from the contract with the serpent in Genesis.
Saved for our rightful Lord and Master Jesus Christ and his Father, their Divine Purpose, communion, eternal life. In short, redeemed to the path and purpose of Adam before the fall.
Doesn't everyone know this? Or am I missing the point of the question?
You are going to be missing a whole lot more than just the point of my questions.

Thank You
Jonebgood

Abbotsford, Canada

#10 May 21, 2011
Once again the Shadrachian one brings some light to the darkness. So lets ruffle the feathers of the winged one. Did Pharoah have a chance for salvation? No ten times God hardened his heart. Did Judas have a chance for salvation? Regardless of what EGW says No he had a devil from the beginning. Do people who have died and never heard the name of Jesus have a chance for salvation? No there is no other name whereby we can be saved. Were there any righteous in Sodom and Gormorrah? No they all perished. Is one person molded for honor and another for dishonor? yes. Did Peter speak of men who were like brute beasts speaking evil is all they knew meant only for destruction? Yes. No Christian who believes in eternal security thinks they have a license to sin. The mere fact that Jesus Christ went to the cross for us makes sin abhorant to us. We beleive in the missionary work of spreading to gospel around the world. Don my fellow country man you really think leaving Jesus would be as easy as jumping out of a life boat? Can you really think you might leave Jesus? Can you see your life as such? Does He mean that little to you. Dont you know He holds you in the palm of His hands the same hands that took the nails? Do you know what Jesus went though to redeem you? Can you not beleive that He is able above all else to keep you as His child? How flipant to believe that salvation is so cheap as to be lost. God emptied heaven for us, Jesus endured more than man can ever know. When you fall Who is there to pick you up? When your sick Who do you call? When sorrow racks your life where do you turn? Oh my friend Jesus said I have lost none but the one who was never Mine to begin with. Grace and Peace.
frmrone

Houston, TX

#11 May 21, 2011
Matthew 24:13
Rockroller

Yucaipa, CA

#12 May 21, 2011
Shadrach wrote:
<quoted text>
And all that overcome, were His from the beginning. Created for His pleasure and good purpose Eph 1:4
Ya, you got it, Calvin also got the idea from Paul's words. But you will never find where Jesus said anything about this.

Well, not quite, as found in John 3. When a person is truely born of God, they are sealed and therefore saved. Problem is, this has not happened since the disciples of Jesus. Why, because people now are following the lies of Paul, making them sinners and therefore are not saved.
Historic SDA

United States

#13 May 23, 2011
Rockroller wrote:
<quoted text>
Ya, you got it, Calvin also got the idea from Paul's words. But you will never find where Jesus said anything about this.
Well, not quite, as found in John 3. When a person is truely born of God, they are sealed and therefore saved. Problem is, this has not happened since the disciples of Jesus. Why, because people now are following the lies of Paul, making them sinners and therefore are not saved.
The gospel of Paul will come back to haunt you when you stand before the judgment throne of God. Luke and Paul agree perfectly. You are satanic in your ignorance calling righteousness evil and evil righteousness. Only in the modern versions does Luke and Paul disagree. In the KJV they are in perfect harmony. Modern versions, especially Luke makes Jesus a liar.
TheWingsOfWisdom

London, UK

#14 May 23, 2011
Historic SDA wrote:
<quoted text>The gospel of Paul will come back to haunt you when you stand before the judgment throne of God. Luke and Paul agree perfectly. You are satanic in your ignorance calling righteousness evil and evil righteousness. Only in the modern versions does Luke and Paul disagree. In the KJV they are in perfect harmony. Modern versions, especially Luke makes Jesus a liar.
What facts are you are supporting this opinion of yours on?
DANNO

Birmingham, UK

#15 May 23, 2011
Don from Canada wrote:
"Once saved, always saved" isn't even logical, let alone spiritual. Let's use the Titanic as a loose example: The passengers couldn't help that the boat hit the iceberg. Those fortunate enough to be pulled on a dinghy were "saved". This doesn't mean that the person saved couldn't jump back in. The people in the dinghy, for the sake of this analogy, would respect the person's decision and leave them to their choice.
Christ will not be crucified afresh. One who doesn't respect being saved, won't be saved a second time. No one can pluck you from God's hand; but it doesn't say you can't jump from it.
While I don't know the origin of "once saved" it fits as Catholic doctrine. This allows for a life of sin and unrepentance, provided one confesses. Two major strikes against Calvin are this topic and the burning of the Arian Servetus.
I hear many people applaud him...but I don't get it. Whenever did Christ burn anyone? Hmm. And the pope? Aha! Last I checked, murder was evil. But once saved, always saved, right?
Can the NAMES of the REDEEMED/SAVED be removed from the BOOK of THE LAMB in REV 13: 8 I SAY NO!! They are his sheep and were selected/CHOSEN from the FOUNDATION of the EARTH!!
John 10: 11-14 He knew his SHEEP before they were BORN!!!! Not after they are born!! Jere 1: 5

Dan
DANNO

Birmingham, UK

#16 May 23, 2011
Historic SDA wrote:
<quoted text>The gospel of Paul will come back to haunt you when you stand before the judgment throne of God. Luke and Paul agree perfectly. You are satanic in your ignorance calling righteousness evil and evil righteousness. Only in the modern versions does Luke and Paul disagree. In the KJV they are in perfect harmony. Modern versions, especially Luke makes Jesus a liar.
Only the lost will come into judgment [John 5: 24] and EGW lovers for rejecting the propmise in John 16: 13

Dan
DANNO

Birmingham, UK

#17 May 23, 2011
Historic SDA wrote:
<quoted text>The gospel of Paul will come back to haunt you when you stand before the judgment throne of God. Luke and Paul agree perfectly. You are satanic in your ignorance calling righteousness evil and evil righteousness. Only in the modern versions does Luke and Paul disagree. In the KJV they are in perfect harmony. Modern versions, especially Luke makes Jesus a liar.
Hist SDA.

Do you say that Paul's writings are INSPIRED by the HOLY Spirit like Matthew's writings?? yes or no?

dan
Transplanted Fireweed

Idaho Falls, ID

#18 May 23, 2011
Historic SDA wrote:
<quoted text>The gospel of Paul will come back to haunt you when you stand before the judgment throne of God. Luke and Paul agree perfectly. You are satanic in your ignorance calling righteousness evil and evil righteousness. Only in the modern versions does Luke and Paul disagree. In the KJV they are in perfect harmony. Modern versions, especially Luke makes Jesus a liar.
I have read several "modern" versions, and I totally disagree with you. The gospel is intact, plain, and simple in ANY version. And that's the WHOLE point of the Bible ... the GOSPEL.
Birdman

Bettendorf, IA

#19 May 23, 2011
Transplanted Fireweed wrote:
<quoted text>
I have read several "modern" versions, and I totally disagree with you. The gospel is intact, plain, and simple in ANY version. And that's the WHOLE point of the Bible ... the GOSPEL.
I have differant versions and some may use a differant word but they all say the same if you compare verse with verse.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#20 May 23, 2011
TF and Birdman are correct. There is no conflict between Luke and Paul in 'modern versions.' Or in any recognized version.

The KJV only idea runs contrary to the notion of the Bible being in the language of the common people. Over the centuries, Satan has continued to try to obscure the meaning of the Bible and prevent ordinary people from understanding it.

The KJV, when it was translated, was written in the language of the common people at the time. But in 400 years that language has changed significantly. It is no longer the language of the common people, and many today find it hard to understand.

In addition, the KJV has some limitations. First, it relied on textual evidence available at the time, but also including the Vulgate as I recall. Since that time, there is more reliable textual evidence from earlier manuscripts, and in Greek, not in Latin translated from the Greek.

Another item of concern is the political aspects of the KJV. It had to be approved by the king's councilors. And by the Church of England. And by the Puritans. Etc. The KJV has a Calvinist flavor, evident in verses such as Acts 13:48, Rom. 8:29, etc. But of course! To satisfy the Puritans!

Thus, it is better to compare Bible versions, and better yet, if possible, to read it in the original language. The differences between the critical text and the majority text are not that huge.

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