Who are the 144,000?
First Prev
of 24
Next Last
Call me whatever you want

UK

#1 Mar 19, 2011
I have been asked to explain who i believe the 144,000 are. I would of course like to explain using as many scriptures from the bible as possible.

Here is the basic outline of what i believe the bible teaches and then i will provide information after please feel free to ask any questions.

Gods kingdom consists of the high priest and king Jesus and fellow kings and priest who are the 144,000. The 144,000 are a literal number bought from the earth as first fruits to rule in heaven with Jesus and help bring around a paradise earth for an unspecified amount of people.

The key to understanding that it is a literal number is in revelation :--

Is the number 144,000 merely symbolic?

The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens:“There are many invited, but few chosen.”

A lot of people do not know that the bible has prophesied that the earth will eventually be transformed into a paradise earth for humans. Even though in the lords prayer said by many people around the world we specificaly ask for this kingdom on earth to come.

Here are just a few scriptures that indicate this.

The Bible teaches that god will bring about these changes on earth:-

“He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.”—Revelation 21:4

“The lame one will climb up just as a stag does.”—Isaiah 35:6

“The eyes of the blind ones will be opened.”—Isaiah 35:5

“All those in the memorial tombs will . . . come out.”—John 5:28, 29

“No resident will say:‘I am sick.’”—Isaiah 33:24

“There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth.”—Psalm 72:16

What specific references are there in the “New Testament” to a provision for Christians to be rewarded with eternal life on earth?

Matt. 5:5:“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”

Matt. 6:9, 10:“Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.”(What is God’s will regarding the earth? What do Genesis 1:28 and Isaiah 45:18 indicate?)

Matt. 25:31-33, 40, 46:“When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.. . . The king will say to them [the sheep],‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ And [the goats] will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones [the sheep] into everlasting life.”(Notice that these “sheep” are not the same as the King’s brothers, who are “partakers of the heavenly calling.”[Heb. 2:10–3:1] But these sheeplike ones would be alive during the time that Christ was on his throne and during the time when some of his “brothers” would still be experiencing hardship on earth.)

John 10:16:“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”(Who are these “other sheep”? They are followers of the Fine Shepherd, Jesus Christ, but are not in the “new covenant” sheepfold, with hope of heavenly life. Yet they do come to be closely associated with those who are in that sheepfold.)

2 Pet. 3:13:“There are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”(Also Revelation 21:1-4)
Call me whatever you want

UK

#2 Mar 19, 2011
Rev. 7:9, 10:“After these things [after the apostle John saw the full number of “sealed” ones who had been “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion; see Revelation 7:3, 4; 14:1-3] I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying:‘Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.’”

If you can get your head around the fact that the bible teaches that there is a paradise earth then things suddenly can become clearer and easier to understand.

The 144,000 who are going to rule as kings and priests over the earth do not choose themselves, God choses.

(Revelation 5:10) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
Simply stated, these individuals are anointed by God’s holy spirit and receive a heavenly “calling,” or “invitation.”(Heb. 3:1; ftn.) This personal invitation is from God. They, in turn, respond at once without question or doubt or fear in accepting this begetting as God’s sons.(Read 1 John 2:20, 21.) So they do not select this hope for themselves, but Jehovah puts his seal, or holy spirit, upon them.—2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 1 Pet. 1:3, 4.

Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses take the number 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation literally and not symbolically?
The apostle John wrote:“I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand.”(Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase “those who were sealed” refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth.(2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) Their number, 144,000, is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.

After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming “great tribulation,” which will destroy the present wicked world.—Revelation 7:9, 14.

Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group,“those who were sealed,” has a definite number. However, the second group,“a great crowd,” is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.

Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion—that is, the number is literal. For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago:“It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter.”(The Apocalypse or “The Day of the Lord,” page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master’s Seminary in the United States, wrote:“The case for symbolism is exegetically weak.” He added:“It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.”—Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474.
Call me whatever you want

UK

#3 Mar 19, 2011
Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000, must be symbolic.(Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct. Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, John speaks of “the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”(Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about “the thousand years” of Christ’s reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows.(Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.

The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the “great crowd,” also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who “were bought from among mankind as firstfruits.”(Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression “firstfruits” refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a “little flock.”(Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.

Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God.—Psalm 37:29.

To how many does the Bible hold out hope of heavenly life?

Luke 12:32:“Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”

Rev. 14:1-3:“I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion [in heaven; see Hebrews 12:22-24], and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.. . . And they are singing as if a new song . . . and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.”

But what about everyone else?

The Great Crowd an earthly paradise awaits

Do those of the “great crowd” referred to at Revelation 7:9, 10 also go to heaven?
Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.
The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition.(Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne”(Greek, e·no′pi·on tou thro′nou; literally,“in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33.

The “great crowd in heaven” referred to at Revelation 19:1, 6 is not the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. The ones in heaven are not described as being “out of all nations” or as ascribing their salvation to the Lamb; they are angels. The expression “great crowd” is used in a variety of contexts in the Bible.—Mark 5:24; 6:34; 12:37.
Call me whatever you want

UK

#4 Mar 19, 2011
20 When millions are raised in the resurrection, they will not be brought back to life on an empty earth.(Isaiah 45:18) They will awaken in beautifully improved surroundings and will find that living quarters, clothing, and an abundance of food have been prepared for them.(Psalm 67:6; 72:16; Isaiah 65:21, 22) Who will make all these preparations? Clearly, people will have to be living in the new world before the earthly resurrection begins. But who?

Very soon now, Jehovah God is going to intervene in human affairs and wipe out wickedness from the earth.(Psalm 37:10, 11; Proverbs 2:21, 22) At that time, what will happen to those who are faithfully serving God?

22 Jehovah will not destroy the righteous along with the wicked.(Psalm 145:20) He has never done such a thing, and he will not do it when he cleanses the earth of all badness.(Compare Genesis 18:22, 23, 26.) In fact, the last book of the Bible speaks of “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,” coming out of “the great tribulation.”(Revelation 7:9-14) Yes, a great multitude will survive the great tribulation in which the present wicked world ends, and they will enter God’s new world. There, obedient mankind can fully benefit from God’s marvelous provision to free mankind from sin and death.(Revelation 22:1, 2) Thus, the “great crowd” need never experience death. What a unique prospect!

16 At Revelation 7:9, 14, the “great crowd” are seen “dressed in white robes,” which implies a clean standing with God. To be in line to survive “the great tribulation,” that great crowd is now being formed. Hence, even now these gain a certain righteous standing before God. They are being declared righteous as Jehovah’s friends.(Rom. 4:2, 3; Jas. 2:23) What a benefit that is! If you are part of the great crowd, you can be sure that God is willing to work with you as you strive to remain clean in his eyes.

17 What happens to the sins of those whom God favors? As noted earlier, Jehovah said through Jeremiah:“I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.”(Jer. 31:34) God does this for the anointed on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice. In a similar way, God can forgive the sins of the great crowd on the basis of the same “blood of the covenant.” Jeremiah’s saying that God would “remember” sins no more does not imply that He would have a memory lapse and simply not be able to recall the sins. Rather, it indicates that once Jehovah has administered any needed discipline and forgiven a repentant sinner, God throws that past sin behind Him. Think of the sins King David committed involving Bath-sheba and Uriah. David received discipline and felt the consequences of his sins.(2 Sam. 11:4, 15, 27; 12:9-14; Isa. 38:17) Yet, God did not keep holding David accountable for those sins.(Read 2 Chronicles 7:17, 18.) As indicated in the new covenant, once Jehovah has forgiven sins, based on Jesus’ sacrifice, He remembers them no more.—Ezek. 18:21, 22.

All the material is sourced from various Jehovahs witnesses Publications. If you need anything explained further i can try to do my best to help with your research. Anyway i hope this has been interesting.

Brotherly love

CMWYW

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#5 Mar 19, 2011
You said, "The 144,000 who are going to rule as kings and priests over the earth do not choose themselves, God choses."

And Rev. 20:4-5 says
----------
Then I saw the souls of those:

1. who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,
2. who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. BUT THE REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
----------

Therefore, are we to conclude that No. 1 & 2 in Rev. 20 quoted above are a special group of the resurrected saints, 144,000 in number of the literal descendants of Abraham?
Call me whatever you want

UK

#6 Mar 20, 2011
You said, "The 144,000 who are going to rule as kings and priests over the earth do not choose themselves, God choses."And Rev. 20:4-5 says----------Then I saw the souls of those:1. who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,2. who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. BUT THE REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
----------Therefore, are we to conclude that No. 1 & 2 in Rev. 20 quoted above are a special group of the resurrected saints, 144,000 in number of the literal descendants of Abraham?
**********
Yes they are a special group of ressurected holy ones chosen by god. There are steps that both God and the one chosen takes please read the scriptures laid out here:-

The way to heavenly life. The way to heavenly life involves more than just faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice and works of faith in obedience to God’s instructions. The inspired writings of the apostles and disciples show that there must also be a calling and choosing of one by God through his Son.(2Ti 1:9, 10; Mt 22:14; 1Pe 2:9) This invitation involves a number of steps, or actions, taken to qualify such a one for the heavenly inheritance; many of such steps are taken by God, others by the one called. Among such steps, or actions, are the declaring righteous of the called Christian (Ro 3:23, 24, 28; 8:33, 34); bringing him forth (‘begetting him’) as a spiritual son (Joh 1:12, 13; 3:3-6; Jas 1:18); his being baptized into Christ’s death (Ro 6:3, 4; Php 3:8-11); anointing him (2Co 1:21; 1Jo 2:20, 27); sanctifying him (Joh 17:17). The called one must maintain integrity until death (2Ti 2:11-13; Re 2:10), and after he has proved faithful in his calling and selection (Re 17:14), he is finally resurrected to spirit life.—Joh 6:39, 40; Ro 6:5; 1Co 15:42-49;

Call me whatever you want

UK

#7 Mar 20, 2011
re 287-288
Judges for a Thousand Years
8 After the thousand years, Satan is released from the abyss for a short while. Why? Before giving the answer, John brings our attention back to the beginning of that time period. We read:“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them.”(Revelation 20:4a) Who are these ones sitting on thrones and ruling in the heavens with the glorified Jesus?
9 They are “the holy ones” that Daniel described as ruling in the Kingdom with the One “like a son of man.”(Daniel 7:13, 14, 18) They are the same as the 24 elders who sit on heavenly thrones in the very presence of Jehovah.(Revelation 4:4) They include the 12 apostles, to whom Jesus gave the promise:“In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”(Matthew 19:28) They also include Paul, as well as the Corinthian Christians who remained faithful.(1 Corinthians 4:8; 6:2, 3) They would include, too, members of the congregation of Laodicea who conquered.—Revelation 3:21.
10 Thrones—144,000 of them—are prepared for these anointed conquerors who are “bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.”(Revelation 14:1, 4)“Yes,” continues John,“I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand.”(Revelation 20:4b) Among those kings, then, are the anointed Christian martyrs who earlier, at the opening of the fifth seal, asked Jehovah how much longer he would wait to avenge their blood. At that time, they were given a white robe and told to wait a little longer. But now they have been avenged through the devastating of Babylon the Great, the destruction of the nations by the King of kings and Lord of lords, and the abyssing of Satan.—Revelation 6:9-11; 17:16; 19:15, 16.
11 Were all these 144,000 royal judges physically “executed with the ax”? Likely, relatively few of them were in a literal sense. This expression, though, doubtless is intended to embrace all those anointed Christians who endure martyrdom in one way or another.(Matthew 10:22, 28) Certainly, Satan would like to have executed all of them with the ax, but, in fact, not all of Jesus’ anointed brothers die as martyrs. Many of them die of disease or old age. Such ones, however, also belong to the group that John now sees. The death of all of them is, in a sense, sacrificial.(Romans 6:3-5) Additionally, none of them were part of the world. Hence, all of them have been hated by the world and, in effect, become dead in its eyes.(John 15:19; 1 Corinthians 4:13) None of them worshipped the wild beast or its image, and when they died, none of them carried the mark of the beast. All of them died as conquerors.—1 John 5:4; Revelation 2:7; 3:12; 12:11.

I would like to say for the record that i do not believe that i have been called heavenward for 1John 2: 27 And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. shows me.

It says here i would not have to be taught i would just know that i am anointed. So if i have an element of doubt whether i am going to judge the world and angels then i am not. There would not be that element of doubt. God would of told me.
Call me whatever you want

UK

#8 Mar 20, 2011
One thing i have realised from speaking to many people who are not Jehovahs witnesses is that they have a belief that they are going to heaven. But when asked what they are going to do there they say that they don't know but they will wait and see.

If they were anointed then they would know what they are going to do!

I know what they are going to do! They are going to bring around peace on earth and rule as kings and priests with Jesus. They are going to be judging the nations. They are going to be ruling over the Earth. They are selected especially by god to do this and i know i am not one of them.

My hope is an earthly one but i will try to seek the kingdom first as not bieng part of the 144000 does not mean you should not worship jehovah with your whole heart soul and mind. It also doesn't mean we don't get benifit from jesuses ransom sacrifice I hope to be part of the great crowd on earth living in a paradise on earth forever just as god originaly intended.

Hope that helps
Crazy Baptist

Hopkins, SC

#9 Mar 20, 2011
I have to read over this again tomorrow as my day is done and I must go home for rest but thank you for the work you put in here. You did as I asked and explained your beliefs.

I would like to as I said read over this material again tomorrow before commenting any further.

Again thanks and God bless, Your Friend CB

Since: Dec 07

Melbourne, Australia

#10 Mar 20, 2011
The writer is very clear on his views about this group of 144,000. Quite unambiguously he writes that they are male, virgins and they are members of 12 Hebrew tribes, with exactly 12,000 coming from each tribe.

As the rest of that book states, the writer(s) expected the imminent return of the Anointed One, whose followers at the time the followers were still seen as a segment of Judaism, particularly those affiliated with the Jerusalem Sect.

To find any other meaning or to apply it to any other time than to the time it was written is to disgracefully distort the meaning of language. Simply admit that the writer got it wrong.

The writer was clearly of Jewish origin who showed a mysoginistic attitude towards women and who speaks disparagingly of the local churches in Asia Minor, who he was obviously familiar with and who despised their lack of puritanical zeal.

This mysoginist attitude is displayed in the late additions to Paul's writings, likely added at the time Revelation was written, 50 years after Paul's death.

Doug

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#11 Mar 20, 2011
Call me whatever you want wrote:
One thing i have realised from speaking to many people who are not Jehovahs witnesses is that they have a belief that they are going to heaven. But when asked what they are going to do there they say that they don't know but they will wait and see.
If they were anointed then they would know what they are going to do!
I know what they are going to do! They are going to bring around peace on earth and rule as kings and priests with Jesus. They are going to be judging the nations. They are going to be ruling over the Earth. They are selected especially by god to do this and i know i am not one of them.
My hope is an earthly one but i will try to seek the kingdom first as not bieng part of the 144000 does not mean you should not worship jehovah with your whole heart soul and mind. It also doesn't mean we don't get benifit from jesuses ransom sacrifice I hope to be part of the great crowd on earth living in a paradise on earth forever just as god originaly intended.
Hope that helps
You seem to have forgotten the assurances of Paul.

1 Thes. 4:16-17
----------
For the Lord Himself will DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
----------

He says that BOTH THE GLORIFIED LIVING SAINTS AND THE RESURRECTED DEAD SAINTS will be caught up together "in the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air.

In Rev. 20, John assures us that THE REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the 1,000 years were finished. Therefore, ALL the dead saints are resurrected at the Second Advent and ALL SAINTS are caught up "to the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air.

The prophecy is not about an earthly millennium, but of life in a heavenly place for a thousand years.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#12 Mar 20, 2011
Call me whatever you want wrote:
You said, "The 144,000 who are going to rule as kings and priests over the earth do not choose themselves, God choses."And Rev. 20:4-5 says----------Then I saw the souls of those:1. who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,2. who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. BUT THE REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
----------Therefore, are we to conclude that No. 1 & 2 in Rev. 20 quoted above are a special group of the resurrected saints, 144,000 in number of the literal descendants of Abraham?
**********
Yes they are a special group of ressurected holy ones chosen by god. There are steps that both God and the one chosen takes please read the scriptures laid out here:-
The way to heavenly life. The way to heavenly life involves more than just faith in Christ’s ransom sacrifice and works of faith in obedience to God’s instructions. The inspired writings of the apostles and disciples show that there must also be a calling and choosing of one by God through his Son.(2Ti 1:9, 10; Mt 22:14; 1Pe 2:9) This invitation involves a number of steps, or actions, taken to qualify such a one for the heavenly inheritance; many of such steps are taken by God, others by the one called. Among such steps, or actions, are the declaring righteous of the called Christian (Ro 3:23, 24, 28; 8:33, 34); bringing him forth (‘begetting him’) as a spiritual son (Joh 1:12, 13; 3:3-6; Jas 1:18); his being baptized into Christ’s death (Ro 6:3, 4; Php 3:8-11); anointing him (2Co 1:21; 1Jo 2:20, 27); sanctifying him (Joh 17:17). The called one must maintain integrity until death (2Ti 2:11-13; Re 2:10), and after he has proved faithful in his calling and selection (Re 17:14), he is finally resurrected to spirit life.—Joh 6:39, 40; Ro 6:5; 1Co 15:42-49;
Why are you including all kinds of people into the group when the Book of Revelation explicitly defines it as the rulers beside Jesus Christ:

----------
1. who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, AND

2. who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
----------

They are ALL Christians. They are ONLY those who have ever HEARD the gospel of salvation and were acquainted with the NEW COVENANT.

They will teach the rest of the saints, those who believed from the days of Adam to those saved who lived righteously as best as they knew how among heathen lands.

And God and Jesus will guide everyone to living waters that they may eat of the the Tree of Life and of its leaves made for the healing of the nations.

Since: Dec 07

Melbourne, Australia

#13 Mar 21, 2011
theCircle wrote:
<quoted text>
You seem to have forgotten the assurances of Paul.
1 Thes. 4:16-17
----------
For the Lord Himself will DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
----------
He says that BOTH THE GLORIFIED LIVING SAINTS AND THE RESURRECTED DEAD SAINTS will be caught up together "in the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air.
In Rev. 20, John assures us that THE REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the 1,000 years were finished. Therefore, ALL the dead saints are resurrected at the Second Advent and ALL SAINTS are caught up "to the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air.
The prophecy is not about an earthly millennium, but of life in a heavenly place for a thousand years.
And they expected these things to happen in their own lifetime.

The people of Thessalonica were concerned that Paul had made promises yet people were dying. So he wrote this apocalyptic piece to them. It was the earliest of his preserved letters. Paul died about 50 CE, so when at the end of that century (about 90 CE) there still was no sign of this promised coming, so someone wrote the letters we now call 2 Thessalonians, as they needed to water down the expectations that were running among the Thessalonians.

You would need to show that the people who wrote Revelation belonged to the Pauline group, that they were aware of the contents of 1 Thessalonians, and their relationship to the people who wrote 2 Thessalonians.

Further, in regards to the text of 1 Thess 4:16-17, one would need to discuss their contemporary cosmology. How long can people be able to remain suspended floating in mid-air clouds without oxygen tanks?

Doug
Call me whatever you want

West Bromwich, UK

#14 Mar 21, 2011
theCircle wrote:
<quoted text>
You seem to have forgotten the assurances of Paul.
1 Thes. 4:16-17
----------
For the Lord Himself will DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
----------
He says that BOTH THE GLORIFIED LIVING SAINTS AND THE RESURRECTED DEAD SAINTS will be caught up together "in the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air.
In Rev. 20, John assures us that THE REST OF THE DEAD did not live again until the 1,000 years were finished. Therefore, ALL the dead saints are resurrected at the Second Advent and ALL SAINTS are caught up "to the clouds" to meet the Lord in the air.
The prophecy is not about an earthly millennium, but of life in a heavenly place for a thousand years.
4:15-17—Who are “caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air,” and how does this happen? These are anointed Christians who are alive during Christ’s presence in Kingdom power. They “meet the Lord” Jesus in the invisible heavenly realm. To experience this, though, they first need to die and be resurrected as spirit creatures.(Rom. 6:3-5; 1 Cor. 15:35, 44) Christ’s presence has already begun, so anointed Christians who die today do not remain dead. They are “caught away,” or raised instantly.—1 Cor. 15:51, 52.

12 Now these conquerors live again! John reports:“And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”(Revelation 20:4c) Does this mean that these judges are not resurrected until after the destruction of the nations and the abyssing of Satan and his demons? No. Most of them are already very much alive, since they rode with Jesus against the nations at Armageddon.(Revelation 2:26, 27; 19:14) Indeed, Paul indicated that their resurrection commences soon after the beginning of Jesus’ presence (in 1914) and that some are resurrected before others.(1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) Therefore, their coming to life occurs over a period of time as they individually receive the gift of immortal life in the heavens.—2 Thessalonians 1:7; 2 Peter 3:11-14.

13 Their reigning and judging will be for a thousand years. Is this a literal thousand years, or should we view it symbolically as being an undefined, long period of time?“Thousands” may mean a large, indefinite number, as at 1 Samuel 21:11. But here the “thousand” is literal, since it appears three times in Revelation 20:5-7 as “the thousand years.” Paul called this time of judgment “a day” when he stated:“He [God] has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness.”(Acts 17:31) Since Peter tells us that one day with Jehovah is as a thousand years, it is appropriate that this Day of Judgment be a literal thousand years.—2 Peter 3:8.
The Rest of the Dead

14 Whom, though, will these kings judge if, as the apostle John here inserts,“(the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)”?(Revelation 20:5a) Again, the expression “come to life” has to be understood according to context. This expression can have varying meanings in varying circumstances. For example, Paul said of his anointed fellow Christians:“It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins.”(Ephesians 2:1) Yes, spirit-anointed Christians were “made alive,” even in the first century, being declared righteous on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.—Romans 3:23, 24.
Call me whatever you want

West Bromwich, UK

#15 Mar 21, 2011
15 Similarly, pre-Christian witnesses of Jehovah were declared righteous as to friendship with God; and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were spoken of as “living” even though they were physically dead.(Matthew 22:31, 32; James 2:21, 23) However, they and all others who are resurrected, as well as the great crowd of faithful other sheep who survive Armageddon and any children that may be born to these in the new world, must yet be raised to human perfection. This will be accomplished by Christ and his associate kings and priests during the thousand-year Judgment Day, on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. By the end of that Day,“the rest of the dead” will have “come to life” in the sense that they will be perfect humans. As we shall see, they must then pass a final test, but they will face that test as perfected humans. When they pass the test, God will declare them worthy of living forever, righteous in the fullest sense. They will experience the complete fulfillment of the promise:“The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”(Psalm 37:29) What a delightful future is in store for obedient mankind!
The First Resurrection

16 Returning now to those who “came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ,” John writes:“This is the first resurrection.”(Revelation 20:5b) How is it first? It is “the first resurrection” as to time, for the ones who experience it are a “firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.”(Revelation 14:4) It is also first in importance, since those who share in it become corulers with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom and judge the rest of mankind. Finally, it is first in quality. Apart from Jesus Christ himself, those raised in the first resurrection are the only creatures spoken of in the Bible as receiving immortality.—1 Corinthians 15:53; 1 Timothy 6:16.

17 What a blessed prospect for these anointed ones! As John declares:“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority.”(Revelation 20:6a) As Jesus promised the Christians in Smyrna, these conquerors that share in “the first resurrection” will be in no danger of harm by “the second death,” which means annihilation, destruction without hope of a resurrection.(Revelation 2:11; 20:14) The second death has “no authority” over such conquerors, for they will have put on incorruption and immortality.—1 Corinthians 15:53.

18 How different from earth’s kings during Satan’s tenure of authority! These have ruled at most for a mere 50 or 60 years, and the great majority for just a few years. Many of them have oppressed mankind. In any case, how could the nations benefit permanently under ever-changing rulers with ever-changing policies? In contrast, John says of earth’s new rulers:“But they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”(Revelation 20:6b) With Jesus, they will form the sole government for a thousand years. Their priestly service, in applying the merit of Jesus’ perfect human sacrifice, will lift obedient humans to spiritual, moral, and physical perfection. Their kingly service will result in building a global human society that reflects Jehovah’s righteousness and holiness. As judges for a thousand years, they, with Jesus, will lovingly guide responsive humans toward the goal of everlasting life.—John 3:16.

From Revelation the Grand Climax book by Jehovahs witnesses

Since: Dec 07

Melbourne, Australia

#16 Mar 21, 2011
Call me whatever you want wrote:
From Revelation the Grand Climax book by Jehovahs witnesses
Do some thinking of your own, instead of regurgitating their distorted, self-serving explanations.

Doug
Call me whatever you want

West Bromwich, UK

#17 Mar 21, 2011
In my opinion you can only start to understand revelation fully if you know when the lords day started.

Revelation 1:10 By inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day..

Also it would help if you understood the signs of jesuses presence.

Jesus’ presence would be marked by a time of profound troubles here on earth. Jesus said that his presence as King in heaven would be marked on earth by wars, famines, earthquakes, pestilences, and lawlessness.(Matthew 24:7-12; Luke 21:10, 11) What would cause all this misery? The Bible explains that Satan,“the ruler of this world,” is full of rage because he knows that his time is very short now that Christ’s presence as King has begun.(John 12:31; Revelation 12:9, 12) Such visible evidence of Satan’s rage and of Christ’s presence has been abundant in our time. Especially since 1914, a year that historians acknowledge was a turning point, has this evidence appeared on an unprecedented and global scale.
All of that may sound like bad news, but it is not. It means that the Messianic Kingdom is ruling now in heaven. Very soon, that government will exercise its rule right here over all the earth. How, though, would people know about that Kingdom in order to accept its rule and become its subjects?

Jesus’ presence is marked by a global preaching work. Jesus said that his presence would be like “the days of Noah.”(Matthew 24:37-39) Noah was more than an ark builder; he was also “a preacher of righteousness.”(2 Peter 2:5) Noah warned people that a judgment from God was on its way. Jesus said that his followers on earth would be doing something similar during his presence. He prophesied:“This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”—Matthew 24:14.

I believe that revelation applys mainly to the last 100 years since 1914 and extends into the future untill the fulfillment of gods purpose for mankind. Both a promised Earthly Hope for the earth inhabitants and a heavenly hope for the 144,000. It couldn't be more simple.

Who are the kings and priests going to rule over?

If your going to heaven what are you going to do there?

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#18 Mar 21, 2011
Doug Mason wrote:
<quoted text>
And they expected these things to happen in their own lifetime.
The people of Thessalonica were concerned that Paul had made promises yet people were dying. So he wrote this apocalyptic piece to them. It was the earliest of his preserved letters. Paul died about 50 CE, so when at the end of that century (about 90 CE) there still was no sign of this promised coming, so someone wrote the letters we now call 2 Thessalonians, as they needed to water down the expectations that were running among the Thessalonians.
You would need to show that the people who wrote Revelation belonged to the Pauline group, that they were aware of the contents of 1 Thessalonians, and their relationship to the people who wrote 2 Thessalonians.
Further, in regards to the text of 1 Thess 4:16-17, one would need to discuss their contemporary cosmology. How long can people be able to remain suspended floating in mid-air clouds without oxygen tanks?
Doug
1 Cor. 15:49
----------
And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
----------

Acts 1:9
----------
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
----------

It is obvious that gravity has no effect on the glorified body which is as the body of an angel. Incidentally, the cloud spoken of by Luke here in Acts of the Apostles, by Paul to the Thessalonians and John in the Revelation of Jesus Christ refer to the very same thing: the glorious presence of angels.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#19 Mar 21, 2011
Call me whatever you want wrote:
<quoted text>
4:15-17—Who are “caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air,” and how does this happen? These are anointed Christians who are alive during Christ’s presence in Kingdom power. They “meet the Lord” Jesus in the invisible heavenly realm. To experience this, though, they first need to die and be resurrected as spirit creatures.(Rom. 6:3-5; 1 Cor. 15:35, 44) Christ’s presence has already begun, so anointed Christians who die today do not remain dead. They are “caught away,” or raised instantly.—1 Cor. 15:51, 52.
12 Now these conquerors live again! John reports:“And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.”(Revelation 20:4c) Does this mean that these judges are not resurrected until after the destruction of the nations and the abyssing of Satan and his demons? No. Most of them are already very much alive, since they rode with Jesus against the nations at Armageddon.(Revelation 2:26, 27; 19:14) Indeed, Paul indicated that their resurrection commences soon after the beginning of Jesus’ presence (in 1914) and that some are resurrected before others.(1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) Therefore, their coming to life occurs over a period of time as they individually receive the gift of immortal life in the heavens.—2 Thessalonians 1:7; 2 Peter 3:11-14.
13 Their reigning and judging will be for a thousand years. Is this a literal thousand years, or should we view it symbolically as being an undefined, long period of time?“Thousands” may mean a large, indefinite number, as at 1 Samuel 21:11. But here the “thousand” is literal, since it appears three times in Revelation 20:5-7 as “the thousand years.” Paul called this time of judgment “a day” when he stated:“He [God] has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness.”(Acts 17:31) Since Peter tells us that one day with Jehovah is as a thousand years, it is appropriate that this Day of Judgment be a literal thousand years.—2 Peter 3:8.
The Rest of the Dead
14 Whom, though, will these kings judge if, as the apostle John here inserts,“(the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)”?(Revelation 20:5a) Again, the expression “come to life” has to be understood according to context. This expression can have varying meanings in varying circumstances. For example, Paul said of his anointed fellow Christians:“It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins.”(Ephesians 2:1) Yes, spirit-anointed Christians were “made alive,” even in the first century, being declared righteous on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice.—Romans 3:23, 24.
There are too many inconsistencies here. We need to take each issue one at a time.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#20 Mar 21, 2011
Call me whatever you want wrote:
15 Similarly, pre-Christian witnesses of Jehovah were declared righteous as to friendship with God; and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were spoken of as “living” even though they were physically dead.(Matthew 22:31, 32; James 2:21, 23) However, they and all others who are resurrected, as well as the great crowd of faithful other sheep who survive Armageddon and any children that may be born to these in the new world, must yet be raised to human perfection. This will be accomplished by Christ and his associate kings and priests during the thousand-year Judgment Day, on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. By the end of that Day,“the rest of the dead” will have “come to life” in the sense that they will be perfect humans. As we shall see, they must then pass a final test, but they will face that test as perfected humans. When they pass the test, God will declare them worthy of living forever, righteous in the fullest sense. They will experience the complete fulfillment of the promise:“The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”(Psalm 37:29) What a delightful future is in store for obedient mankind!
The First Resurrection
16 Returning now to those who “came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ,” John writes:“This is the first resurrection.”(Revelation 20:5b) How is it first? It is “the first resurrection” as to time, for the ones who experience it are a “firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.”(Revelation 14:4) It is also first in importance, since those who share in it become corulers with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom and judge the rest of mankind. Finally, it is first in quality. Apart from Jesus Christ himself, those raised in the first resurrection are the only creatures spoken of in the Bible as receiving immortality.—1 Corinthians 15:53; 1 Timothy 6:16.
17 What a blessed prospect for these anointed ones! As John declares:“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority.”(Revelation 20:6a) As Jesus promised the Christians in Smyrna, these conquerors that share in “the first resurrection” will be in no danger of harm by “the second death,” which means annihilation, destruction without hope of a resurrection.(Revelation 2:11; 20:14) The second death has “no authority” over such conquerors, for they will have put on incorruption and immortality.—1 Corinthians 15:53.
18 How different from earth’s kings during Satan’s tenure of authority! These have ruled at most for a mere 50 or 60 years, and the great majority for just a few years. Many of them have oppressed mankind. In any case, how could the nations benefit permanently under ever-changing rulers with ever-changing policies? In contrast, John says of earth’s new rulers:“But they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.”(Revelation 20:6b) With Jesus, they will form the sole government for a thousand years. Their priestly service, in applying the merit of Jesus’ perfect human sacrifice, will lift obedient humans to spiritual, moral, and physical perfection. Their kingly service will result in building a global human society that reflects Jehovah’s righteousness and holiness. As judges for a thousand years, they, with Jesus, will lovingly guide responsive humans toward the goal of everlasting life.—John 3:16.
From Revelation the Grand Climax book by Jehovahs witnesses
See post above.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 24
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Seventh-day Adventist Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Was the Sabbath Covenant made for mankind? 3 min Saved By Grace 368
Christ's Investigative Judgment Doctrine 23 min Sitka happy 107
I keep the BLOOD COVENANT 1 Cor 11:25 1 hr Isaiah 56 Jer 33 ... 70
We Have Never Seen Anything like This... (2017-... 1 hr Earburner 804
SDA are first among the top 2 hr Yeshua wasIS God ... 11
Sabbath 14 hr KSH 194
Sabbaterians MUST keep each Sabbath Holy!!! 14 hr KSH 85
More from around the web