Will Smith's New School For Scientology?

[edwardwoodward]

Anonymousse wrote:

Anonomily described study tech like this: "The basic concepts are indeed VERY basic, and in non-sci lingo seem to be:
1. build models or use manipulatives to enhance learning or augument a lesson.
2. If a concept is not mastered, go back and master it before proceeding.
3. look up words in the dictionary if you don't understand them."
Prove to me that those techniques DON'T work.
Also, prove to me that working one-on-one with a tutor or a very small group in a personalized setting isn't going to be helpful.
You have gone beyond your angry opinion and disapproval of the Scientology organization (okay, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it), to providing disinformation about Will Smith's school and the study techniques they plan to use.
Smith's school is only objectionable to you because you have a beef with Scientology, but you are extending your opposition beyond what I consider reasonable. And I'm telling you what I think of your unreasonable objection, which seems to ruffle you quite a bit.
If you were attacking Catholic or Fundy Christian schools such as Liberty University because of your objections to their religious doctrines, I would have the same response to you.
Diversity is a good thing. Alternatives are a good thing.
Disinformation is not such a good thing...and if you are going to ask for proof of THAT bold statement, you'll have to figure it out for yourself.

Mate, you're being very disingenuous here. You've turned Slick's original argument on its head (gone from making your own unsubstantiated claim to demanding others substantiate their claims).
You've been very selective with what evidence you have provided, even cherry picking positive statements from a report that is overwhelmingly negative.
And now you're varying your arguments on the teaching methods to make it seem like people arguing against what you say are being unreasonable.

You've also gone off a tangent, bringing us the shocking revelation that some schools in rough areas have disciplinary problems and poor educational records (no, really?). Will we see $cientology making any efforts in these cases, I wonder. No. Why not?

Most people who have looked at $cientology in any depth and with any sense of balance know there are little bits here and there that have some merit because Hubbard cobbled his "tech" together by lifting from other sources.
The man didn't have an original thought in his head. It wouldn't surprise me if he even found Xenu in somebody else's work.

As for your point about disinformation, which seems to me to be obfuscation at best, you could take that right back to the beginning and say that's where we started: disinformation by Saint Will and his new "church" about the real purpose of his pet school.
Gold Mask proved the point that this school would employ $cientologists and had changed its website to obscure this fact, a point you have yet to acknowledge.

[Red Pill]

Anonymousse wrote:

Anonomily described study tech like this: "The basic concepts are indeed VERY basic, and in non-sci lingo seem to be:
1. build models or use manipulatives to enhance learning or augument a lesson.
2. If a concept is not mastered, go back and master it before proceeding.
3. look up words in the dictionary if you don't understand them."
Prove to me that those techniques DON'T work.

Sure, when you prove that there's no invisible pink unicorn standing behind me. You made an assertion, now back it up with evidence. Just because something 's 'true to you' doesn't mean it actually is.

Anonymousse wrote:

Also, prove to me that working one-on-one with a tutor or a very small group in a personalized setting isn't going to be helpful.

In addition to once again asking her to prove a negative, that statement is soooooo broad and soooooo general.

Anonymousse wrote:

You have gone beyond your angry opinion and disapproval of the Scientology organization (okay, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it),

Only because you guys fail miserably when you try to 'handle' this board, so there's not much you can do about it. Ask for proof of this.

I dare you.

Anonymousse wrote:

to providing disinformation about Will Smith's school and the study techniques they plan to use.

Not really, now you're building scarecrows. The criticism stems from the fact that its a Scientology school that pretends not to be. You're the one who brought up 'study tech.'

Anonymousse wrote:

Smith's school is only objectionable to you because you have a beef with Scientology, but you are extending your opposition beyond what I consider reasonable.

No, its actually a good example of why we don't like Scientology. This school changed its web page that showed Scientologists were employed there. And if you're going to say 'so what if I they employ Scientologists,' you're missing the point that the problem is with their sneaking around.

Anonymousse wrote:

And I'm telling you what I think of your unreasonable objection, which seems to ruffle you quite a bit.
If you were attacking Catholic or Fundy Christian schools such as Liberty University because of your objections to their religious doctrines, I would have the same response to you.

There you go, comparing Scientology to a real religion. CofS only pretends to be one because... well, I'll let Larry Brennan explain.

'7. Based on years of work in the senior most legal bodies of organized scientology as
covered above I have dealt with directly or supervised the handling of hundreds of legal
matters involving the organizations of scientology which directly or indirectly had to do
with using religious cloaking to help handle a real or potential legal or PR problem
involving said organizations. This included a wide range of legal matters involving taxes,
immigration, licensing, corporate, potential draft issues, practice of medicine and/or
psychology, sales of services, employment laws and much more.'

-Larry Brennan

But its not like you'll do anything but try to distract us, troll, and generally muddy up the waters. Its what Scieno trolls do.

[Slick]

edwardwoodward wrote:

<quoted text>
Mate, you're being very disingenuous here. You've turned Slick's original argument on its head (gone from making your own unsubstantiated claim to demanding others substantiate their claims).

Nice edward, but actually Anonymousse was even more disingenuous than that. Rather than providing proof of his/her claims, which we all know is impossible, Anonymousse has created a number of strawman arguments, whole cloth, of the most ridiculous nature, then pretended that I said those things, and THEN demanded that I prove them! Prove something I never claimed? Supposedly, I'd fall for that and go off on some tangent.

But this is old troll/debating tricks -- combining bad logic, lies, distraction and attack. Hallmarks of Scientology-OSA for sure.

We're also not supposed to notice that this troll made Scientology baldfaced claims and CANNOT back them up with any proof.

We did notice. Everyone else does too! OSA-FAIL!

[Anonomomily]

Lron found Xenu at the bottom of a bottle of rum.

[Some1 Else]

Red Pill wrote:

<quoted text>No need to bother with that, they surrendered the forum to us a long time ago. They're still here watching though, and pop up in convenient moments, but they won't challenge us openly.
<quoted text>Whys that?
<quoted text>Actually, extremely black and white thinking like that indicates a destructive cult if its the norm within a group. Legitimate religions have their extremists, but in a cult extremism is the norm.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q1.h...
And on a related note, a group doesn't have to be religious to be a cult. Amway is a good example of this.
<quoted text>How does one hold secular beliefs to a religious level, when the beliefs are secular? How does a secular belief become a religious one?

Well, I spent many Sunday mornings in the corner of Sunday school class for daring to "question God;" though all I was really doing was questioning the teachings which made no sense to me.

IMO, legitimate religion is an oxymoron. Nearly all, if not all, have begun out of the fraudulent and deceptive actions of their tentative leaders who had political power aspirations as well as religious. Burning the candle on both ends, so to speak. Because many religions are organized, technically they are businesses, only tax-exempt.

Any belief can be taken to an extreme and therefore religious level, regardless of whether it's a secular belief, or not. A belief in UFO's for exampe isn't religious in nature; however, one can take it to a religious level. Belief is based on faith; that being the case, anything outside of fact can be held to a religious level. But then that's just MO.

BTW, I may have to eat those words in an earlier post about scientology not getting its claws in down here. I'll have to find the letters I ran across. It will be interesting to see the responses to the one from the Baton Rouge mayor's office which sings the praises of the scientologists' applied scholastics techniques....

[Some1 Else]

Red Pill wrote:

<quoted text>http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q2.h...

<quoted text>Scientology doesn't borrow much from Christianity. It promotes itself as being more like Buddhism.

<quoted text>Where?

<quoted text>Here's an excerpt that sums it up. Give me an email address and I'll send you the entire thing in .doc format. I can also provide Brennan's email address if you have further questions.

I'll check that link when I have a little more time.

I didn't hear a lot of Buddhism in that video. Do they tout themselves as such because they don't believe in a creator? I'm wondering because Buddhism isn't even a religion; it holds no definite beliefs in regards to a God.

Give me a little time to go back over that video and take notes on which parts seemed to revert to Xianity.

My generic email is [e-mail]. Look forward to hearing from you.

[Some1 Else]

Anonomomily wrote:

<quoted text>
"Godwin" is a reference to the pracice of accusing someone of being a Nazi when they disagree with you, more or less. I was being facetious, although scilons are rather prone to that behavior...
Also, the "all religion bad go attack someone else" bit is all over this thread. I was just hoping for something more original.
And the school thing, get it straight. THEY ARE LYING ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE. THIS IS BAD. Ok?

Thanks for clearing that up. So scilons are apparently the scientologists?

Well, MO is that all religion is bad; so IMV, scientology is no different than any other in this respect. However, I've not ever said to go attack anyone else, much less someone else...I get blamed for everything anyway. ;)

Now that last paragraph seems that you are forcing your opinion upon me. I've not done that to you, so please afford me the same respect. I'm not going to agree with you just because you say something is correct. After becoming aware of more details of this situation, then I'll make my own consensus, which may or may not change as I gain more knowledge regarding it.

Who knows, you might just get those original questions and points before too long. Peace to ya....

[Some1 Else]

Some1 Else wrote:

<quoted text>
I'll check that link when I have a little more time.
I didn't hear a lot of Buddhism in that video. Do they tout themselves as such because they don't believe in a creator? I'm wondering because Buddhism isn't even a religion; it holds no definite beliefs in regards to a God.
Give me a little time to go back over that video and take notes on which parts seemed to revert to Xianity.
My generic email is [e-mail]. Look forward to hearing from you.

I should clarify something in regards to that Buddhism statement. Though it's a philosophy, beliefs are held to a religious level by some followers of the teachings. As I'm sure you, yourself, already knew.

[Some1 Else]

Letter from BR mayor's office regarding Applied Scholastics which was implemented within a BR school in the wake of Katrina and Rita, edited for space and brevity:

Full text with followup letters found here:
http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php...

Dear Mr. Smith,

My name is Roxson Welch. I am the Education Outreach Coordinator for the Mayor of Baton Rouge....

....School did not get started until October. It was a chaotic beginning at best with children moving in and out. No school supplies, no uniforms, no real addresses but we managed. It was in that context that Applied Scholastics offered their help. They trained their tutors from the community. The principal chose the students carefully from a list of students who had the most critical needs. The students were hand-picked based on several criteria. They were the students with the highest absenteeism, lowest grades, and most discipline problems. The theory being that any help with those students could not hurt. Since we were not personally familiar with the program, the principal monitored the results carefully. They did not actually begin until right before the Thanksgiving holidays. The students had a week off for the holidays, came back and, three weeks later they had two weeks off for the Christmas holidays. Tutoring did not begin in a consistent manner until January. We have state mandated high-stakes testing in Louisiana. This test takes place during the middle of March. Therefore the tutoring really had very little time to show whether or not it would be successful and I personally had little faith that we would see any changes within 2 1/2 months. However, 100% of the students who participated in this program passed the Language Arts section of the LEAP test. The test was administered under strictly controlled conditions, as mandated by law. The tutors from Applied Scholastics were not even allowed on campus during the testing period.

Please understand the magnitude of this. The kids chosen were the most likely to fail but yet every single one of them passed, some with very high scores.

......it makes sense that the starting point would be to teach them how to communicate. Another important factor was the relationship between the students and the tutor. There is usually a 5/1 ratio of students to tutors creating the ability for the tutors to be more aware of the problems and be able to address them immediately. Also, these students felt valued. Their successes were celebrated but, possibly more importantly; their difficulties were addressed by showing them how to back up, assess the problem, and learn how to address the problem head on. These children have had a lifetime of frustration related to school. Their ordinary method of dealing with difficulties is to shut down due to frustration. This program taught them how to manage the difficulties in a positive way which followed them into the other classes and continues to serve them well....The discipline problems were reduced dramatically throughout the school because the kids causing the most problems were no longer causing problems. The absenteeism rate from the children participating in the program declined to a negligible factor. Therefore, the kids were in the classes on a more regular basis allowing them to learn. All of these external benefits were probably the greatest determining factors of the ultimate results but they never would have happened were it not for Applied Scholastics.

Now, as for the indoctrination theory. A reporter came down a few weeks ago to do a report for a newspaper in Florida . He seemed to share the same concerns you have so I suggested that he ask the students who L. Ron Hubbard is and what Scientology is. The kids didn't know anything about either. The tutors never discuss religion in any manner, ever with these students. L. Ron Hubbard means no more to them than Scott Foresman (the publisher of their other textbooks).....

[Some1 Else]

Letter part 2 (edited)
....They had never heard of Scientology. I have worked with this group on a relatively regular basis and have never had them discuss Scientology with me. I am still a Southern Baptist. Admittedly, I know very little about Scientology or its teachings but it has nothing to do with what is being taught in the classes at our school. I am a teacher and I believe in helping kids reach their maximum potential but mostly I am all about helping kids find the best in themselves. This program has done that here...
....We have documented results and they speak volumes. I am grateful for the advantages they have given to the students who now have a chance at educational success and consequently, a chance at a brighter future.
Thank you,
Roxson Welch
Educational Outreach Coordinator
East Baton Rouge Parish Mayor's Office
222 St. Louis St.
Baton Rouge, LA 70802

http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php...

[Gold Mask]

yes 'some1Esle, your obfuscation wouldnt be complete without the requisite follow up

Dear Ms. Welch,

Thank you for your prompt reply. Thank you also for clearing up the mistaken idea that the Mayor of Baton Rouge is implementing, the Applied Scholastics program in the Baton Rouge public schools. Since this idea was propounded by and in a Scientology magazine, as I stated, perhaps it should also be informed of the mistake.

I am not unmindful of the difficulties faced by Baton Rouge, and many other areas of the Gulf states following hurricanes Katrina and Rita. My wife spent two weeks in and around Abbeville with a Buddhist relief organization after the storms. She did not go there for the cameras, and while it was not possible for her to stay longer, her desire to help and her efforts while in LA, were sincere. We have friends in and around New Orleans and are aware that problems caused by the storms persist. All of which is beside the point.

I am also mindful of the challenges educators face, particularly since the passage of the No Child Left Behind legislation. In fact the situation you describe, a group of high needs children receiving tutoring services, sounds exactly like the situation addressed in Title I Part A of No Child Left Behind.

It is my understanding of this legislation that schools are required to provide the parents of students information on the availability of supplementary education services, the identity of approved service providers, and a description of the services, qualifications and demonstrated effectiveness of the provider.

It is unclear from your letter whether or not those requirements were met in this case, but I do note that Applied Scholastics is not currently listed with the LA Dept of Education as an approved provider of supplemental education services. That list is here http://www.doe.state.la.us/lde/uploads/7831.p... .

I have no doubt that the educational needs of the children of Baton Rouge are uppermost in your mind, as they should be. It was uppermost in the mind of Chris King, PhD the Superintendent of Schools in Hazlewood, MO when he wrote this letter to the MO Dept of Education in 2005. http://studytech.org/documents/wright-to-king...

You incorrectly cast my concern with Applied Scholastics as some sort of religious bigotry. It is not. I would have the same concerns with any religion proselytizing in public schools. And while it seems clear to me that you do not believe this to be the case, if you would take the time to review some of the information I have provided, perhaps you may change your mind. If you are inclined to do further research, a good place to start would be here
http://studytech.org/home.php

Thank you again for your prompt response to my writing.

With best wishes,

Bill Smith

[Gold Mask]

Just so you know. 'Some1else', I am a long time contibutor to Operation Clambake's message board.

[Anonomomily]

Some1 Else wrote:

<quoted text>
Thanks for clearing that up. So scilons are apparently the scientologists?
Well, MO is that all religion is bad; so IMV, scientology is no different than any other in this respect. However, I've not ever said to go attack anyone else, much less someone else...I get blamed for everything anyway. ;)
Now that last paragraph seems that you are forcing your opinion upon me. I've not done that to you, so please afford me the same respect. I'm not going to agree with you just because you say something is correct. After becoming aware of more details of this situation, then I'll make my own consensus, which may or may not change as I gain more knowledge regarding it.
Who knows, you might just get those original questions and points before too long. Peace to ya....

I'm sorry to infringe upon your right to come to your own opinions. I just thought that deceit, lying, dishonesty, whatever you would like to call it, was generally disapproved of in most arenas. Silly me.

Unless, of course you are a member of the Co$, affectionately known as a Scilon, in which case "what's true for you is true for you", which makes "truth" a very malleable substance. And, of course my favorite, "SP's can be lied to, tricked, deprived of property, injured or destroyed".

Hope you had a lovely time away from this board, and do catch up soon, there have been many interesting posts!

[Some1 Else]

Gold Mask wrote:

yes 'some1Esle, your obfuscation wouldnt be complete without the requisite follow up

Geesh. I gave the link and said it had follow ups. Had I posted all the letters, then you would've probably accused me of spamming. Damned if I do or damned if I don't. Feel like I'm in a religious convention here....

Out of curiosity, since you seemed to think it necessary to post the immediate follow up, why were you then dishonest enough to leave out the first letter and the latter responses?

[Some1 Else]

Gold Mask wrote:

Just so you know.'Some1else', I am a long time contibutor to Operation Clambake's message board.

So? Do you think I didn't consider that some of you may be?

I just found it by googling lousiana+family+forum+applied+ scholastics. The reason I was looking at LFF with the AS is because of the creationist bill that has passed here and this group seems to be one of the main ones pushing it. So I wondered if scientology is part of that group, maybe advocated that bill in some way.

At least I was honest enough to take back what I said earlier out of ignorance to the fact of scientology's involvement here. But don't let that stop you from bashing me, esp since you don't know me.

[OmG]

too many big words!!!!!

[Anonomomily]

Some1 Else wrote:

<quoted text>
So? Do you think I didn't consider that some of you may be?
I just found it by googling lousiana+family+forum+applied+ scholastics. The reason I was looking at LFF with the AS is because of the creationist bill that has passed here and this group seems to be one of the main ones pushing it. So I wondered if scientology is part of that group, maybe advocated that bill in some way.
At least I was honest enough to take back what I said earlier out of ignorance to the fact of scientology's involvement here. But don't let that stop you from bashing me, esp since you don't know me.

Did some searching for that bill in your area. We have had the same issue in Florida. Co$ doesn't seem to care about the evolution issue, but they like the issues that deal with public money for private tutoring sessions. Go figure.

I love this quote:

Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State took a firm stance in a press release (June 27, 2008): "Let me state clearly and upfront that any attempts to use this law to sneak religion into public schools through the back door will not be tolerated.… I call on all concerned residents of Louisiana to help us make sure that public schools educate, not indoctrinate."

June 27, 2008

[Some1 Else]

Anonomomily wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm sorry to infringe upon your right to come to your own opinions. I just thought that deceit, lying, dishonesty, whatever you would like to call it, was generally disapproved of in most arenas. Silly me.
Unless, of course you are a member of the Co$, affectionately known as a Scilon, in which case "what's true for you is true for you", which makes "truth" a very malleable substance. And, of course my favorite, "SP's can be lied to, tricked, deprived of property, injured or destroyed".
Hope you had a lovely time away from this board, and do catch up soon, there have been many interesting posts!

Actually, I find that deceit, and dishonety is well accepted in many arenas, which is why I personally stay out of all those now days. Politics, religion and big business are all intertwined it seems. Doesn't stop most from being involved in any of it.

"SPs" sound like weak minded people who are easily preyed upon by deceptions of others. One's faith should never be trusted to, nor determined by, any other person. JMO.

Truth is never subjective. If that's what you got from what I said, then you didn't get the gist of my post at all.

If I look at the evidence with a biased POV, then I wont' come away with a true picture of the situation, now will I? If I accept what you say as truth, then how am I any different than those "SPs," whatever that is, and scilons who just take another's word at face value without looking at the evidence carefully? Sorry, I'm not a follower.

[Anonymousse]

Having nothing to do with Scientology, but everything to do with your interest in science education, some1...

have you seen M.J. McDermott's video on "An Inconvenient Truth about Math Education"? It's controversial. Here are some links for and against:

M.J. McDermott (meteorologist in Seattle): http://www.youtube.com/watch...

James Blackburn-Lynch (I had some difficulty hearing him; you may want to adjust the sound): http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Cliff Mass, Ph.D., U. Washington Atmospheric Sciences: http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Dr. Tsewei Wang, Associate Professor of Chemistry, UT-Knoxville: http://www.lit.net/orschools/everydaymath2.ht...

[OmG]

Can someone talk to me :(