Why Atheism Will Replace Religion

Aug 27, 2012 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: News24

Please note that for this article "Atheism" also includes agnostics, deists, pagans, wiccans... in other words non-religious.

You will notice this is a statement of fact. And to be fact it is supported by evidence (see references below). Now you can have "faith" that this is not true, but by the very definition of faith, that is just wishful thinking.

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“Liberty & Justice For All”

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#13133
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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
As all of your quotes say, we do not know. The reason we do not know? because the quantum of time, if it exists, is incredibly small, probably around 10^{-43} second. We have, at this point, no way to measure times this small.
That does not mean time is a figment of the mind. It means it is physical, but we do not fully understand it.
Einstein disagrees:

"Space and time are modes by which we think, not conditions under which we live." Time – the time that we know through clocks and calendars – was invented. Space and time are models by which we think, not conditions under which we live.”

Albert Einstein - Encyclopaedia Britannica

“Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it”.

Albert Einstein - Haper’s
Thinking

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Einstein also said there wasn't a beginning to the universe.

Looks like he wasn't always right, blubber.
ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
Einstein disagrees:
"Space and time are modes by which we think, not conditions under which we live." Time – the time that we know through clocks and calendars – was invented. Space and time are models by which we think, not conditions under which we live.”
Albert Einstein - Encyclopaedia Britannica
“Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it”.
Albert Einstein - Haper’s

“Liberty & Justice For All”

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
First of all, Scientific American is not nearly the quality science magazine it once was. While it once had articles written by the actual scientists and was directed to giving accurate information, it is now a popular science magazine that is written primarily by journalists. In the goal to make money, it destroyed itself.
More to the point. In modern physics, space and time together become part of the dynamic geometry of the universe. Both space and time are affected by and affect matter and energy, so they become real quantities that have to be addressed. But, spacetime comes as a whole: all of space and all of time are together in this geometry. No 'right now', as your article says.
This does not mean that time is merely a construct of our minds. In fact, the evidence says that time and space are quite physical things that are crucial parts of our universe.
If you really want to continue this discussion, you should learn some actual physics. You will find that time is a fundamental part of our universe. Even those who think that space and time are emergent from other phenomena (suggested by the first part of your post), see time as a physical thing whose properties need to be explained.
Your belief that time is a real thing, a physical thing, and has some kind of independent existence outside the human mind is delusional, bubba. For you this belief is obviously a sacred cow. Evidently you're still stuck in the Newtonian concept of time that Einstein disproved decades ago.

Time is not physical, it has no physical or chemical properties and it’s not an invisible force like gravity. It doesn't act on or interact with anything. Time is just our mental perception of the rate at which the "now" changes and the rate of change of this "now" is neither constant nor fixed. Newton was brilliant but he was wrong about time.
Calypso17

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#13136
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ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
Einstein disagrees:
"Space and time are modes by which we think, not conditions under which we live." Time – the time that we know through clocks and calendars – was invented. Space and time are models by which we think, not conditions under which we live.”
Albert Einstein - Encyclopaedia Britannica
“Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it”.
Albert Einstein - Haper’s
You are no Einstein, Mary.

Time is not a social construct, but religion is. If religion accompanies free will and helps teach peace and tolerance it can be a force for good in the world. If religion is adhered to as an absolute, it becomes rigid, pompous and oppressive, like you.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

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ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
Your belief that time is a real thing, a physical thing, and has some kind of independent existence outside the human mind is delusional, bubba. For you this belief is obviously a sacred cow. Evidently you're still stuck in the Newtonian concept of time that Einstein disproved decades ago.
Time is not physical, it has no physical or chemical properties and it’s not an invisible force like gravity. It doesn't act on or interact with anything. Time is just our mental perception of the rate at which the "now" changes and the rate of change of this "now" is neither constant nor fixed. Newton was brilliant but he was wrong about time.
You like to quote Einstein a lot, yet you apparently disagree with his own notion that space time is made of four identical dimensions, one of them being time. Please explain if you can ..... I'll wait.

“Think&Care”

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ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
Your belief that time is a real thing, a physical thing, and has some kind of independent existence outside the human mind is delusional, bubba. For you this belief is obviously a sacred cow. Evidently you're still stuck in the Newtonian concept of time that Einstein disproved decades ago.
On the contrary, I base my position on how physics is actually done. This includes the physics that Einstein did. In particular, spacetime geometry is what Einstein studied in his theory of general relativity. While *absolute* time, in the sense of Newton, is gone, time is a physical thing that can be measured and be affected by matter.
Time is not physical, it has no physical or chemical properties and it’s not an invisible force like gravity. It doesn't act on or interact with anything. Time is just our mental perception of the rate at which the "now" changes and the rate of change of this "now" is neither constant nor fixed. Newton was brilliant but he was wrong about time.
No, time is NOT merely our mental perception. If that were the case, then times shorter than our ability to perceive them would be meaningless. But, for example, our visual perceptions cannot distinguish events that are closer together than 1/30 of a second. Our auditory perception can do better, but still fails for time intervals less than 1/10,000 of a second. But it is standard in physics to work with time intervals less than a nano-second. We now produce laser bursts lasting less than a femto-second. This is far, far below any possibility of perception by the human senses. But it still makes sense. And that shows that time is not merely a human mental construct.

Even more, we know that matter and energy can change the spacetime geometry (this is gravity), so the geometry is not simply a mental construct, but an active dynamic part of the universe. This is part of Einstein's contribution.

“Liberty & Justice For All”

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Calypso17 wrote:
<quoted text>
You are no Einstein, Mary.
Time is not a social construct, but religion is. If religion accompanies free will and helps teach peace and tolerance it can be a force for good in the world. If religion is adhered to as an absolute, it becomes rigid, pompous and oppressive, like you.
It's kinda flattering in a freaky weird kind of way that you're apparently trying to "investigate" me, but....not even close, bubba.

Bwaaahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahaha

“Liberty & Justice For All”

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Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
You like to quote Einstein a lot, yet you apparently disagree with his own notion that space time is made of four identical dimensions, one of them being time. Please explain if you can ..... I'll wait.
I don't disagree with Einstein's notion. I disagree with your description of Einstein's notion.

"Space and time are modes by which we think, not conditions under which we live." Time – the time that we know through clocks and calendars – was invented. Space and time are models by which we think, not conditions under which we live.”

Albert Einstein - Encyclopaedia Britannica

“Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it”.

Albert Einstein - Harper’s

Relax, take a deep breath and focus on the words "no independent existence", bubba.

Let me know when you finally get it.

BTW Richard Feynman described time as a "direction" like you did in your post, i.e. up, down.

“Liberty & Justice For All”

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
On the contrary, I base my position on how physics is actually done. This includes the physics that Einstein did. In particular, spacetime geometry is what Einstein studied in his theory of general relativity. While *absolute* time, in the sense of Newton, is gone, time is a physical thing that can be measured and be affected by matter.
<quoted text>
No, time is NOT merely our mental perception. If that were the case, then times shorter than our ability to perceive them would be meaningless. But, for example, our visual perceptions cannot distinguish events that are closer together than 1/30 of a second. Our auditory perception can do better, but still fails for time intervals less than 1/10,000 of a second. But it is standard in physics to work with time intervals less than a nano-second. We now produce laser bursts lasting less than a femto-second. This is far, far below any possibility of perception by the human senses. But it still makes sense. And that shows that time is not merely a human mental construct.
Even more, we know that matter and energy can change the spacetime geometry (this is gravity), so the geometry is not simply a mental construct, but an active dynamic part of the universe. This is part of Einstein's contribution.
Wrong. That's YOUR interpretation, your mental reconstruction, of Einstein's contribution. You really are entrenched in your time delusion thing, and I do sympathize with how hard it must be for you to abandon it, but if you ever want to know and experience reality, finding that place in your head where you understand and know that time is an illusion is a necessary first step.

“Think&Care”

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ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't disagree with Einstein's notion. I disagree with your description of Einstein's notion.
"Space and time are modes by which we think, not conditions under which we live." Time – the time that we know through clocks and calendars – was invented. Space and time are models by which we think, not conditions under which we live.”
Albert Einstein - Encyclopaedia Britannica
“Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it”.
Albert Einstein - Harper’s
Relax, take a deep breath and focus on the words "no independent existence", bubba.
Let me know when you finally get it.
BTW Richard Feynman described time as a "direction" like you did in your post, i.e. up, down.
Perhaps you would do better to actually use the *science* that Einstein did rather than the popular quotes he made. In Einstein's theory of general relativity, time and space are merged into spacetime, which is a physical thing that interacts with matter and energy. Different observers will have different coordinate systems and thereby measure different values for length and time intervals. But Einstein was primarily interested in those aspects of spacetime that are NOT dependent on the coordinate system of the observer (the invariants).

Time is one of the coordinates in any coordinate system. It is defined in terms of the direction vector in spacetime that points 'into the future'. Different observers may have different definitions here, but time is still a factor in all coordinate systems because it is a physical aspect of reality that needs to be considered.

Even more, the 'past light cone' and the 'future light cone' define the past and future for any point and are invariants. They are also crucial for an understanding of causality. So, again, time is a physical thing, not just a mental construct.

“Liberty & Justice For All”

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MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
01. Branding people has been a specialty of you people. The moment you fix a label on him, all his arguments and thinking are put into dustbin.
02. I did not comment on your personal status, only on your thinking process.
03. You are right brother, very few people in Western Country receive any religious information.
What they receive is faulty information based on Bible and that is why they loose interest in what they get.
Media and work style, leave no room for "religion" in work place, this is another reason of people loosing contact with religion.
It is just a name and a few rituals and some annual feasts and celebrations (which have become too commercialized).
04. There is no hindrance on you gaining as much knowledge about the Universe as you can.
60 or 70 years are not sufficient to gather all the info out there, but one should gather as much as we can.
This info is good, but it should not sidetrack you from knowing what is actual purpose of your life!!
If you start with a right frame of mind, every thing in this Universe will bring you closer to your Merciful Creator, with wrong frame of mind the same info will take you away and away from your Creator.
It is only the matter of outlook, like positive and negatives of the same picture!!
We are not enemies, we have different purpose.
Good post, MUQ

Well said!

“Liberty & Justice For All”

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Thinking wrote:
Einstein also said there wasn't a beginning to the universe.
Looks like he wasn't always right, blubber.
<quoted text>
Yes, he did and whether he was right or wrong about that may depend on what future generations discover about the nature of what we call the universe.

Einstein finally conceded to pressure from the scientific community to declare that the universe was finite and he did, with this addendum...."I still can't help wondering what lies beyond."

Neither can I.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

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ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't disagree with Einstein's notion. I disagree with your description of Einstein's notion.
"Space and time are modes by which we think, not conditions under which we live." Time – the time that we know through clocks and calendars – was invented. Space and time are models by which we think, not conditions under which we live.”
Albert Einstein - Encyclopaedia Britannica
“Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it”.
Albert Einstein - Harper’s
Relax, take a deep breath and focus on the words "no independent existence", bubba.
Let me know when you finally get it.
BTW Richard Feynman described time as a "direction" like you did in your post, i.e. up, down.
All events take time, since you say it doesn't exit then all of reality is in your head. Good luck with that!!! Since everything is in your imagination, you should be able to stop breathing and eating now. Enjoy!!

“There is no Truth in Faith”

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#13146
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exit = exist .... pluah!!! Derned s key is sticking today.

“Liberty & Justice For All”

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Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
All events take time, since you say it doesn't exit then all of reality is in your head. Good luck with that!!! Since everything is in your imagination, you should be able to stop breathing and eating now. Enjoy!!
Scientists suggest spacetime has no time dimension

Scientists propose that clocks measure the numerical order of material change in space, where space is a fundamental entity; time itself is not a fundamental physical entity. Image credit:

The concept of time as a way to measure the duration of events is not only deeply intuitive, it also plays an important role in our mathematical descriptions of physical systems. For instance, we define an object’s speed as its displacement per a given time. But some researchers theorize that this Newtonian idea of time as an absolute quantity that flows on its own, along with the idea that time is the fourth dimension of spacetime, are incorrect. They propose to replace these concepts of time with a view that corresponds more accurately to the physical world: time as a measure of the numerical order of change.

In two recent papers (one published and one to be published) in Physics Essays, Amrit Sorli, Davide Fiscaletti, and Dusan Klinar from the Scientific Research Centre Bistra in Ptuj, Slovenia, have described in more detail what this means.

No time dimension

They begin by explaining how we usually assume that time is an absolute physical quantity that plays the role of the independent variable (time, t, is often the x-axis on graphs that show the evolution of a physical system). But, as they note, we never really measure t. What we do measure is an object’s frequency, speed, etc. In other words, what experimentally exists are the motion of an object and the tick of a clock, and we compare the object’s motion to the tick of a clock to measure the object’s frequency, speed, etc. By itself, t has only a mathematical value, and no primary physical existence....

....“Minkowski space is not 3D + T, it is 4D,” the scientists write in their most recent paper.“The point of view which considers time to be a physical entity in which material changes occur is here replaced with a more convenient view of time being merely the numerical order of material change. This view corresponds better to the physical world and has more explanatory power in describing immediate physical phenomena: gravity, electrostatic interaction, information transfer by EPR experiment are physical phenomena carried directly by the space in which physical phenomena occur.”

As the scientists added, the roots of this idea come from Einstein himself.
“Einstein said,‘Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it,’” Sorli told PhysOrg.com .“Time is exactly the order of events: this is my conclusion.”.....

http://phys.org/news/2011-04-scientists-space...

“There is no Truth in Faith”

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ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
Scientists suggest spacetime has no time dimension
Scientists propose that clocks measure the numerical order of material change in space, where space is a fundamental entity; time itself is not a fundamental physical entity. Image credit:
The concept of time as a way to measure the duration of events is not only deeply intuitive, it also plays an important role in our mathematical descriptions of physical systems. For instance, we define an object’s speed as its displacement per a given time. But some researchers theorize that this Newtonian idea of time as an absolute quantity that flows on its own, along with the idea that time is the fourth dimension of spacetime, are incorrect. They propose to replace these concepts of time with a view that corresponds more accurately to the physical world: time as a measure of the numerical order of change.
In two recent papers (one published and one to be published) in Physics Essays, Amrit Sorli, Davide Fiscaletti, and Dusan Klinar from the Scientific Research Centre Bistra in Ptuj, Slovenia, have described in more detail what this means.
No time dimension
They begin by explaining how we usually assume that time is an absolute physical quantity that plays the role of the independent variable (time, t, is often the x-axis on graphs that show the evolution of a physical system). But, as they note, we never really measure t. What we do measure is an object’s frequency, speed, etc. In other words, what experimentally exists are the motion of an object and the tick of a clock, and we compare the object’s motion to the tick of a clock to measure the object’s frequency, speed, etc. By itself, t has only a mathematical value, and no primary physical existence....
....“Minkowski space is not 3D + T, it is 4D,” the scientists write in their most recent paper.“The point of view which considers time to be a physical entity in which material changes occur is here replaced with a more convenient view of time being merely the numerical order of material change. This view corresponds better to the physical world and has more explanatory power in describing immediate physical phenomena: gravity, electrostatic interaction, information transfer by EPR experiment are physical phenomena carried directly by the space in which physical phenomena occur.”
As the scientists added, the roots of this idea come from Einstein himself.
“Einstein said,‘Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it,’” Sorli told PhysOrg.com .“Time is exactly the order of events: this is my conclusion.”.....
http://phys.org/news/2011-04-scientists-space...
Einstein's equations based on his perception of spacetime consisting of four identical dimensions has been verified by numerous experimental results. This verifies his perceptions represent reality pretty well, whether you or I like them or not.

Personally, I'm not crazy about the fact that he says all 4 dimensions are identical. I can turn the left-right dimension into the front-back dimension simply by rotating my body. It would be really nice and prove the dimensions identical if I can rotate my body so that past-present becomes front-back. I'll get back to you when I finally manage it.

Bottom line, just because you don't like his description and because it may not be entirely complete or accurate, does not automatically give you the ability to come up with a better theory, which you haven't.

“Liberty & Justice For All”

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Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Einstein's equations based on his perception of spacetime consisting of four identical dimensions has been verified by numerous experimental results. This verifies his perceptions represent reality pretty well, whether you or I like them or not.
Personally, I'm not crazy about the fact that he says all 4 dimensions are identical. I can turn the left-right dimension into the front-back dimension simply by rotating my body. It would be really nice and prove the dimensions identical if I can rotate my body so that past-present becomes front-back. I'll get back to you when I finally manage it.
Bottom line, just because you don't like his description and because it may not be entirely complete or accurate, does not automatically give you the ability to come up with a better theory, which you haven't.
Einstein's description of time works just fine for me. You are the one who has a problem with it, not me.

Get back to me after you finish building your time travel machine, okay?

“There is no Truth in Faith”

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ezdzit wrote:
<quoted text>
Einstein's description of time works just fine for me. You are the one who has a problem with it, not me.
Get back to me after you finish building your time travel machine, okay?
I'm sure your limited understanding of it works fine for you. But then, you don't understand the connection between a direction and a dimension .... that really screams "IGNORANT!!"

“Engaged to the love of my life”

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Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>I'm sure your limited understanding of it works fine for you. But then, you don't understand the connection between a direction and a dimension .... that really screams "IGNORANT!!"
That one really got to me, it was hilarious!

“Liberty & Justice For All”

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Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sure your limited understanding of it works fine for you. But then, you don't understand the connection between a direction and a dimension .... that really screams "IGNORANT!!"
Aaaah....did I run over your sacred cow?

Is your time travel machine going to be bigger on the inside like Dr. Who's blue box?

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