My friendly neighbourhood witches

by Ken Russell

I was privileged to drag my Hammer-Horror fantasies into the lair of a real witch and warlock for correctional instruction Ken Russell In a heavily wooded hollow in the heart of the New Forest lies the village ...

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Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#209 Apr 17, 2011
kathwynn wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly. Something that William and people like him seem to conveniently forget..
I don't conveniently forget. It would have to be a provable fact to be worth remembering.
I simply don't agree with that history because there is nothing to back it up. You can't pick and choose little bits and pieces, glue them all together the way you want and pass it off as factual.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#210 Apr 17, 2011
kathwynn wrote:
<quoted text>
You think I was censoring.. i wasn't that was all your interpretation.. And "branding" William for what he has portrayed himself is not wrong.
Christian = disagree with kathwynn
kathwynn wrote:
<quoted text>
People like William ultimate agenda always seam to me be the same thing to shove those bad old pagan back where in the closet.
Never said pagans were bad... only that the word witch wasn't as good as you like to think.
kathwynn wrote:
<quoted text>
Bah. William can shove it up a nether region.. The word Witch is an honorable title.. We Pagans are not going back in to some closet to make any one happy.. The word Witch in spite of christian propaganda is being reclaimed. If William hates that fact.. Tough shyt.
Honorable because you choose to make it such... not based on history though.
Reclaim it if you want, but when someone calls you evil shut to hell up, because you brought it on yourself by choosing a word with such negative connotations.
Save yourself the trouble and call yourself Wiccan.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#211 Apr 17, 2011
kathwynn wrote:
<quoted text>
And while YOutube is not always the best place I think this does illustrate my point. As well as show how uniformed that opinion of your is here..
Beltane Ritual
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =pzIDkFVf4n0XX&feature=rel ated
SO a small group of adults got together to perform a not so well rehearsed ritual, and they looked like they would rather get poked in the eye with a sharp stick than be there, but no matter as they have to start somewhere, and this is supposed to 'prove' that the majority of those flocking to Wicca are not teens? FAIL!

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#212 Apr 17, 2011
kathwynn wrote:
<quoted text>
Or you could start with something that is a little more scholarly..
http://www.chasclifton.com/
I don't think it would matter how scholarly or factual any written work may be that is presented to you, because you have your own pre-determined idea and are blind to anything else.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#213 Apr 17, 2011
In any case kathwynn it is apparent you and I don't agree on this, so to continue to take personal shots back and forth is a waste of both our time and does nothing to add anything productive to the topic, which has now gone off to some distant galaxy. I respect your passion regarding your beliefs, and there was a time when I may have argued the same points as you, but over time views change as passion is replaced by reason. Believing in something too strongly can become as much of a trap as not believing in anything at all. And nothing is as cut and dry as we would like to make it seem. Especially the history of witchcraft.
So while not conceding my position on this, I am offering a truce.

Since: Jul 07

Location hidden

#214 Apr 17, 2011
William- wrote:
<quoted text>
It wasn't nearly as open to interpretation as some more recent forms of Wicca.... it's hard to count the qualifiers that have been added to the word.
Dianic Wicca, Faerie Wicca, Traditional Celtic, Traditional British, Pictish Wicca, Seax Wicca, and the list goes on.
SO in some ways we could just as easily say that Wicca has become too watered down and really is as meaningless and hard to define as witch is unless you add some kind of description to it when you use it.
Couldn't the same be said about Christianity? Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Evangelical to name but a few. Do you know that some Christians in the UK don't even know that a Catholic is a Christian? I have had disussions with parishners at the local C of E church that thought Catholics believe in the virgin Mary and Christians Believe in God, who the heck are leading these sheep?

I personally always let people know what kind of Witch I am when the question arises, I dont believe in any God or Goddess which makes me an Athiest Witch but here in England its ok to be that cus Witchcraft is NOT religion thank goodness.

“NM Desert Rat”

Since: Mar 08

Elephant Butte, N.M.

#215 Apr 17, 2011
William- wrote:
<quoted text>
Christian = disagree with kathwynn
<quoted text>
Never said pagans were bad... only that the word witch wasn't as good as you like to think.
<quoted text>
Honorable because you choose to make it such... not based on history though.
Reclaim it if you want, but when someone calls you evil shut to hell up, because you brought it on yourself by choosing a word with such negative connotations.
Save yourself the trouble and call yourself Wiccan.
Aren't you beating a dead horse here? You think the word Witch is evil. Too you it may be. You're entitled to your opinion. Others are of the opinion that it isn't an evil title. Neither side will convince the other they are wrong. It is time to move on.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#216 Apr 17, 2011
NM Desert Rat wrote:
<quoted text>
Aren't you beating a dead horse here? You think the word Witch is evil. Too you it may be. You're entitled to your opinion. Others are of the opinion that it isn't an evil title. Neither side will convince the other they are wrong. It is time to move on.
I agree, if you look at my earlier post you will see this post to kathwynn;

In any case kathwynn it is apparent you and I don't agree on this, so to continue to take personal shots back and forth is a waste of both our time and does nothing to add anything productive to the topic, which has now gone off to some distant galaxy. I respect your passion regarding your beliefs, and there was a time when I may have argued the same points as you, but over time views change as passion is replaced by reason. Believing in something too strongly can become as much of a trap as not believing in anything at all. And nothing is as cut and dry as we would like to make it seem. Especially the history of witchcraft.
So while not conceding my position on this, I am offering a truce.

Since: Jul 07

Location hidden

#217 Apr 17, 2011
William- wrote:
<quoted text>
The key words being 'I believe'... there is no way to know what the word meant to these people.
Exactly my point,

Doreen Valiente writes
"In spite of all claims, it seems to me that it remains a matter of opinion"

There is no proof to say the word 'Witch' was or wasn't a derogatory term so there really is no need to keep the whole discussion going. You have asked why Witches would want to use the name when it is associated with negativity ....in whos opinion is it associated with negativity? yours???? Christians? Muslims? Jews? My mums? Its a word now associated with people that perform witchcraft. Does it really matter? some one who cleans toilets used be called a lavatory cleaner, now they call them cloak room attendants...who cares?

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#218 Apr 17, 2011
Kethry wrote:
<quoted text>
Couldn't the same be said about Christianity? Baptist, Catholic, Methodist, Evangelical to name but a few. Do you know that some Christians in the UK don't even know that a Catholic is a Christian? I have had disussions with parishners at the local C of E church that thought Catholics believe in the virgin Mary and Christians Believe in God, who the heck are leading these sheep?
I personally always let people know what kind of Witch I am when the question arises, I dont believe in any God or Goddess which makes me an Athiest Witch but here in England its ok to be that cus Witchcraft is NOT religion thank goodness.
I am sure it could to a degree, and I couldn't even begin to know what the different Christian denominations differ over. But at least the various denominations of Christianity are basically the same regarding the bible, general theology etc. Wicca on the other hand centralizes around one line from a poem as their 'rede' and as long as you claim to adhere to that you can basically do anything you want... which is a far cry from what Gardner intended.
Many forms of modern Wicca are a complete corruption of the original. But it seems this is ok. The problem is if something gets to the point where it has no structure it becomes meaningless.
I could worship a rubber boot and claim as long as I commit to the rede which states 'harm none' while worshiping that boot I am Wiccan. And because there is no central authority, nobody could refute it. At what point is it time to take a stand and have some rules?

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#219 Apr 17, 2011
Kethry wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly my point,
Doreen Valiente writes
"In spite of all claims, it seems to me that it remains a matter of opinion"
There is no proof to say the word 'Witch' was or wasn't a derogatory term so there really is no need to keep the whole discussion going. You have asked why Witches would want to use the name when it is associated with negativity ....in whos opinion is it associated with negativity? yours???? Christians? Muslims? Jews? My mums? Its a word now associated with people that perform witchcraft. Does it really matter? some one who cleans toilets used be called a lavatory cleaner, now they call them cloak room attendants...who cares?
There is a TON of proof, look at history... it was associated with negativity long before I was born and there are thousands of pieces of literature to prove it. I never contested that NOW it isn't used that way to those who practice, but others may still hold that view, what makes their opinion less valid? I merely contested the fact it was dismissed entirely as Christian propaganda that the word had a negative meaning. Yet NO proof was offered to support that it wasn't pre-Christianity... merely wishful thinking. As I have said earlier, if the word meant 'nice person' would Christians have chosen it to label undesirables? That makes no sense... or did Christians make up the word witch in the first place?

“NM Desert Rat”

Since: Mar 08

Elephant Butte, N.M.

#220 Apr 17, 2011
William- wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree, if you look at my earlier post you will see this post to kathwynn;
In any case kathwynn it is apparent you and I don't agree on this, so to continue to take personal shots back and forth is a waste of both our time and does nothing to add anything productive to the topic, which has now gone off to some distant galaxy. I respect your passion regarding your beliefs, and there was a time when I may have argued the same points as you, but over time views change as passion is replaced by reason. Believing in something too strongly can become as much of a trap as not believing in anything at all. And nothing is as cut and dry as we would like to make it seem. Especially the history of witchcraft.
So while not conceding my position on this, I am offering a truce.
I didn't see your post until after I posted. I agree it is time for a truce and to move on. I can't say that I agree with some of your posts but they are well thought out and that is what makes them interesting. Hopefully there will be more discussions on different topics being that is how we learn. I think you will find that at times we can be a cantankerous lot being we are usually battling with trolls here and at times are a bunch on the defensive side. I have finally come to the conclusion that I won't feed the trolls and eventually they will go away. There is a wealth of knowledge here about our various belief systems with the posters should one take the time to explore.

Since: Jul 07

Location hidden

#221 Apr 17, 2011
William- wrote:
<quoted text>
I could worship a rubber boot and claim as long as I commit to the rede which states 'harm none' while worshiping that boot I am Wiccan. And because there is no central authority, nobody could refute it. At what point is it time to take a stand and have some rules?
And again...the same could be said for Christians, some claim to be Christian and yet the dont go to church, they have no morals and some sin....ALOT, but aslong as they say ten hail marys or keep the crucafix around their necks then they can claim to be a follower of Jesus. The Bible (written by man)tells of stories, stories to keep man in order, to stop him from free thinking, it hasnt worked. The rede allows Wiccans to use their own free thought aslong as they harm none....it seems to work better than that bible ever did.

Since: Jul 07

Location hidden

#222 Apr 17, 2011
William- wrote:
<quoted text>
There is a TON of proof, look at history... it was associated with negativity long before I was born and there are thousands of pieces of literature to prove it. I never contested that NOW it isn't used that way to those who practice, but others may still hold that view, what makes their opinion less valid? I merely contested the fact it was dismissed entirely as Christian propaganda that the word had a negative meaning. Yet NO proof was offered to support that it wasn't pre-Christianity... merely wishful thinking. As I have said earlier, if the word meant 'nice person' would Christians have chosen it to label undesirables? That makes no sense... or did Christians make up the word witch in the first place?
There was a ton of proof that the word Witch was used in a derogatory sense but no one can say for certain if it started out as such, not you or I, so there really is no point in keeping this going. To me it really doesn't matter either way as i am not offended even if it was to be a Christian that called me it.
If we knew for certain that it was and always had been a derogatory term then I guess some of us wouldn't be so quick to use it.
Great discussion though and ive enjoyed having to think about and research the whole debate. certainly gave me some food for thought. Good night all :))

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#223 Apr 17, 2011
Kethry wrote:
<quoted text>
And again...the same could be said for Christians, some claim to be Christian and yet the dont go to church, they have no morals and some sin....ALOT, but aslong as they say ten hail marys or keep the crucafix around their necks then they can claim to be a follower of Jesus. The Bible (written by man)tells of stories, stories to keep man in order, to stop him from free thinking, it hasnt worked. The rede allows Wiccans to use their own free thought aslong as they harm none....it seems to work better than that bible ever did.
I don't think going to church makes someone a Christian anyway...
I am not sure the rede works any better or worse than any other guideline. Generally people are either moral or they are not largely depending on how they were raised.
That has little to do with the structure of the religion however.
Christianity has structure, whether or not people choose to follow that structure is irrelevant. It is quite easy to determine what groups are Christian and which are not by that structure, whereas most forms of Wicca have no defined structure.
One could even debate whether or not Wicca is even really a religion (I know it has been recognized as one) but Gardner never referred to Wica in any other form than a noun in published and unpublished works. Wica was used to describe the adherents of the practice, and not the practice itself. I know that matters little now, but it's something to think about.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#224 Apr 17, 2011
Kethry wrote:
<quoted text>
There was a ton of proof that the word Witch was used in a derogatory sense but no one can say for certain if it started out as such, not you or I, so there really is no point in keeping this going.
Correct, so Wiccans should not make assumptions that it had any other meaning than the one clearly documented throughout history until they have that proof.

“Dance with Fire- Boycott BS”

Since: Apr 07

Moon

#225 Apr 17, 2011
William- wrote:
<quoted text>
SO a small group of adults got together to perform a not so well rehearsed ritual, and they looked like they would rather get poked in the eye with a sharp stick than be there, but no matter as they have to start somewhere, and this is supposed to 'prove' that the majority of those flocking to Wicca are not teens? FAIL!
Some Wiccans would gladly take a poke in an eye to attend THIS Beltane (by the Beltane Fire Soceity in Scottland):



Or, since the camera can't stay still:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/beltanefiresocie...

“A witty saying proves nothing”

Since: Jul 08

Location hidden

#226 Apr 17, 2011
William wrote:
<quoted text>
I could worship a rubber boot and claim as long as I commit to the rede which states 'harm none' while worshiping that boot I am Wiccan. And because there is no central authority, nobody could refute it. At what point is it time to take a stand and have some rules?
William your analogies tend to be a bit on the obscure side. I'm not Wiccan but I don't think the christian idea that a deity needs to be worshipped transfers to Wicca. Not every belief system requires organized structure as christianity does. If someone wants to worship a boot and call himself Wiccan, I don't think anyone will give a crap. There's no need to get the Wiccan police after him and tell him he's being blasphemous towards the God and Goddess. In my opinion, the most positive aspect of Wicca, as well as in Paganism in general, is that it's open to an individuals own personal interpretation.

“A witty saying proves nothing”

Since: Jul 08

Location hidden

#227 Apr 17, 2011
Clark Griswold wrote:
<quoted text>
William your analogies tend to be a bit on the obscure side. I'm not Wiccan but I don't think the christian idea that a deity needs to be worshipped transfers to Wicca. Not every belief system requires organized structure as christianity does. If someone wants to worship a boot and call himself Wiccan, I don't think anyone will give a crap. There's no need to get the Wiccan police after him and tell him he's being blasphemous towards the God and Goddess. In my opinion, the most positive aspect of Wicca, as well as in Paganism in general, is that it's open to an individuals own personal interpretation.
Anticipating your reaction of, "yes, but if they worship a boot they really aren't Wiccan."

Who cares?

“NM Desert Rat”

Since: Mar 08

Elephant Butte, N.M.

#228 Apr 18, 2011
Clark Griswold wrote:
<quoted text>
Anticipating your reaction of, "yes, but if they worship a boot they really aren't Wiccan."
Who cares?
I was going to comment on his boot analogy also however you said it better than I could. I'm beginning to wonder a bit about William.

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