'Constantine's Sword' Angers Catholics

'Constantine's Sword' Angers Catholics

There are 176 comments on the abcnews.go.com story from Apr 20, 2008, titled 'Constantine's Sword' Angers Catholics. In it, abcnews.go.com reports that:

Call it coincidence or providence. A new documentary about Christian anti-Semitism that has drawn the ire of some Catholic groups premiered Friday in New York -- the same day Pope Benedict XVI visited a synagogue on the city's Upper East Side. ...

Pope Benedict even makes an appearance in the film, when he visits a synagogue in Cologne, Germany, shortly after his installation as pope. There he condemns the Nazi genocide but characterizes it as an outgrowth of neo-paganism.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at abcnews.go.com.

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Since: Mar 08

Middleton, WI

#163 May 16, 2008
Dust Storm wrote:
BTW its no secret that Ratzinger served as all youth and their parents who wanted to live did. A very dangerous thing to speak ill. Detractors often disappeared in the night after being reported by their own children or others who were being indoctrinated or given postions of Authority. The Army was powerful enough to overthrow Hitler even after he declared Chancellor. However he have them what they wanted and told them what they wanted to hear. His SS was basically thugs ex army who had a job. The treaty of Versailles was very oppressive to the German People. Jobs and prosperity was welcomed the means however required alot of looking the other way. Eisenhower required pictures and gathering of documents of the camps and Germans in surrounding villages were brought through to help bury the dead. Eisenhower made certain it was documented so those who today some 60 years later already say it never happened. Ahminutjob comes to mind. However Ratzinger is well aware of what was taught in the indoctrination and his family was rebellious. How does that saying go... Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Christianity doesnt have a perfect record either, but its no secret that Christians were persecuted as well but make no mistake the Catholic Church was in direct opposition to Hitlers views.
I said plenty. What I said is that you can't just say 'he was pursuing paganism, deal with it.' It's no more true than to say 'he was christian, deal with it.' There are strong arguments for both sides and as such my conclusion was that both influenced the movement to some degree and that it was not an outgrowth of one movement in particular. Considering the back and forth bickering so far and the thorough unwillingness to bend to the opposing view, that's a fairly radical statement.

I certainly don't believe that the pope was in any way complicit in the whole Nazi enterprise. That's as much of a false conspiracy theory in my mind as any proposed Jewish world domination bid.

I have no doubt that Ratzinger is a very well educated man. Nearly the whole of the clergy is quite well educated and anything Bishop and above, doubly so. But there are many well educated people I have strong disagreements with. And on the subject of Nazism being an outgrowth of anything other than a pack of sick minds who took advantage of a bad situation, I think he's sorely mistaken.

The famous quote attributed to Hitler that if the Jews hadn't existed he would have invented them applies here as well. Hitler was an opportunist. Based on the wide range of groups he both critiqued and praised throughout his life all I can make out for sure is that he'd say anything to stay on top. It's not an unusual behavior for ambitious politicians. Had the Roma been the dominant anti-semitic group, I have little doubt he'd be dancing with the gypsies all the way to the Chancellorship.
Faustus

Lebanon, PA

#164 May 17, 2008
NYPagan wrote:
... He just said Nazis came out of Neo-Paganism...
Yet another reason for me to completely mistrust this man.
He's right actually. Neo-Paganism was a period in German Culture where they melded german and nordic cultures and ideas with that of the roman era. He's talking about a school of thought and a fad in his own country, not with your tree hugging ways. You really should read up on it.
Faustus

Lebanon, PA

#165 May 17, 2008
For all of you Wiccans and Pagans flipping out over this, you're showing how new you are to your faith. The Neo-Pagan era in Germany directly influenced Hitler.

However, the Neo-Pagan era in Germany had little to do with the pagans and wiccans we see walking around here today. It was a nationalistic embrace of all things germanic and pre-christian, and a return to what they believed was their true identity. Wagner left some famous work, Goethe too. There were some beautiful neo-pagan temples built in the south, and a classical revival. later on it fell slightly out of fashion. Prominent Nazi's picked it up and liked the nationalistic anti-christian and anti-jewish elements and integrated some of the styles and ideas into their own.
Faustus

Lebanon, PA

#166 May 17, 2008
I'm an agnostic, so I really don't have a dog in this fight but I noticed how many of you are in here to dogpile on Catholics. Evangelists and D&Ders....oops! "Pagans" are ripping on possibly the most apathetic religious groups out there. I don't see any of you "enlightening" any muslims. God knows they don't need it as much as those crazy Catholics am I right?
Dust Storm

Evansville, WI

#167 May 17, 2008
Aremis Asling wrote:
<quoted text>
I said plenty. What I said is that you can't just say 'he was pursuing paganism, deal with it.' It's no more true than to say 'he was christian, deal with it.' There are strong arguments for both sides and as such my conclusion was that both influenced the movement to some degree and that it was not an outgrowth of one movement in particular. Considering the back and forth bickering so far and the thorough unwillingness to bend to the opposing view, that's a fairly radical statement.
I certainly don't believe that the pope was in any way complicit in the whole Nazi enterprise. That's as much of a false conspiracy theory in my mind as any proposed Jewish world domination bid.
I have no doubt that Ratzinger is a very well educated man. Nearly the whole of the clergy is quite well educated and anything Bishop and above, doubly so. But there are many well educated people I have strong disagreements with. And on the subject of Nazism being an outgrowth of anything other than a pack of sick minds who took advantage of a bad situation, I think he's sorely mistaken.
The famous quote attributed to Hitler that if the Jews hadn't existed he would have invented them applies here as well. Hitler was an opportunist. Based on the wide range of groups he both critiqued and praised throughout his life all I can make out for sure is that he'd say anything to stay on top. It's not an unusual behavior for ambitious politicians. Had the Roma been the dominant anti-semitic group, I have little doubt he'd be dancing with the gypsies all the way to the Chancellorship.
In part we are saying the same thing, but I dont necessarily agree with your analogy on the teacher, which you acknowledge is but one of many who hold a view. I do thoroughly get disgusted with a Super-pete who shakes it off as all a history channel consipiracy lol. I am not fond of History channel, BBC, or PBS documentaries which often leave alot desired and are one sided in many cases on more than just this issue.

I do not see the whole text and often a small text of what the Pope says is taken out of context to make it news. I responded to an attack on the Pope with progopanda not you. I also believe the evidence to support the Popes position is much. The Pope is certainly not going to say Paganism is good. I havent read the whole thread, just wanted to clear up the anti-pope twisted history rhetoric and I agree with you if you read my last paragraph. Hitler was all about him and how he could use the system to get what he wanted. In the end total control. However I will never agree that his movement was more toward Christian faith, morals and ideologies than his own or that of paganism which in itself does not coincide with Christianity. Given the history of both sides cant say if paganism was as strong today as it was in the time when Christianity was illegal that the good times would roll.

Cheers

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

Since: May 07

The Mountain Empire

#168 May 18, 2008
Faustus wrote:
I'm an agnostic, so I really don't have a dog in this fight but I noticed how many of you are in here to dogpile on Catholics. Evangelists and D&Ders....oops! "Pagans" are ripping on possibly the most apathetic religious groups out there. I don't see any of you "enlightening" any muslims. God knows they don't need it as much as those crazy Catholics am I right?
Maybe you need to read the supject again?

Cathlolics have Muslims beat when it comes to whining...
mpgstl

United States

#169 May 18, 2008
Hitler quotes:

The greatness of every mighty organization embodying an idea in this world lies in the religious fanaticism and intolerance with which, fanatically convinced of its own right, it intolerantly imposes its will against all others.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 1 Chapter 12

For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure?...Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 5

I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it.

- Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, The Voice of Destruction, pp. 239-40
mpgstl

United States

#170 May 18, 2008
Hitler quote:

"We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession...."

- Article 20 of the program of the German Workers' Party (later named the National Socialist German Workers' Party, NSDAP)
mpgstl

United States

#171 May 18, 2008
Hitler quotes:

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

Since: Mar 08

Middleton, WI

#172 May 19, 2008
Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
In part we are saying the same thing, but I dont necessarily agree with your analogy on the teacher, which you acknowledge is but one of many who hold a view. I do thoroughly get disgusted with a Super-pete who shakes it off as all a history channel consipiracy lol. I am not fond of History channel, BBC, or PBS documentaries which often leave alot desired and are one sided in many cases on more than just this issue.
I do not see the whole text and often a small text of what the Pope says is taken out of context to make it news. I responded to an attack on the Pope with progopanda not you. I also believe the evidence to support the Popes position is much. The Pope is certainly not going to say Paganism is good. I havent read the whole thread, just wanted to clear up the anti-pope twisted history rhetoric and I agree with you if you read my last paragraph. Hitler was all about him and how he could use the system to get what he wanted. In the end total control. However I will never agree that his movement was more toward Christian faith, morals and ideologies than his own or that of paganism which in itself does not coincide with Christianity. Given the history of both sides cant say if paganism was as strong today as it was in the time when Christianity was illegal that the good times would roll.
Cheers
I don't consider it a conspiracy, I just don't consider those channels to be reliable sources. In fact, it's hard to accept much of what is shown on TV as a reliable source as even true documentaries have to entertain.

I apologize for my reaction. I was in a rush, which is never a good way to post in a reasoned fashion. I realized even later that day that ultimately you didn't exactly disagree with me. I guess in my rush I reacted only to the brief suggestion that my comments were without substance.

I agree that this is taken way out of context. In the excerpt at the top of the screen we don't even get an actual quote to work off of. The catholic church has been far from our worst critic in recent years. I can't imagine them ever agreeing with us, but there are plenty of other groups, christian and non, that have far worse things to say about paganism.

My primary issue with the article is that it suggests causality and I can just imagine the hordes of folks sitting at home thinking to themselves 'we gotta stop these pagans or they might bring back Nazism.' There are plenty of sensible folks out there who can look at it with a reasonable mind, but there are plenty who can't.

Since: Mar 08

Middleton, WI

#173 May 19, 2008
Faustus wrote:
I'm an agnostic, so I really don't have a dog in this fight but I noticed how many of you are in here to dogpile on Catholics. Evangelists and D&Ders....oops! "Pagans" are ripping on possibly the most apathetic religious groups out there. I don't see any of you "enlightening" any muslims. God knows they don't need it as much as those crazy Catholics am I right?
You reading the same forum I am? There are the occasional drive by 'Catholics are evil' posts, but ultimately few here have suggested that the Catholic church actually wanted Nazism to happen. Those that have have usually been summarily shouted down or ignored.

There have been a few suggestions by myself and others that hitler was at least in part inspired by christian faith, catholic in particular as that was the faith of his upbringing. But no matter the evidence one way or the other, I can't imagine any reasonable person singling out catholics as the cause of that whole tragedy.

Hitler saying he was inspired by either faith is akin to a serial killer saying god made him do it. It shouldn't imply that all christians or pagans will become serial killers. However, this article is written in such a fashion as to suggest that the pope was saying Nazism rose out of neo-paganism as if it were a foregone conclusion.
Linda

Fort Smith, AR

#174 May 19, 2008
For anyone who really wants to know the truth (and most bashers dont)Read what the Jews have to say about the pope. A New York Rabbi, David Dilan, a respected historian, published in The Weekly Examiner (February 26 2001) an article leading to the conclusion that Pius XII, because of his service to the Jews was "righteous among gentiles". In a public lecture recently he repeated this flattering judgement. Thru his efforts more than 860,000 Jews were not exterminated.

“Farewell”

Since: Mar 08

GREENWOOD

#175 May 22, 2008
Faustus wrote:
I'm an agnostic, so I really don't have a dog in this fight but I noticed how many of you are in here to dogpile on Catholics. Evangelists and D&Ders....oops! "Pagans" are ripping on possibly the most apathetic religious groups out there. I don't see any of you "enlightening" any muslims. God knows they don't need it as much as those crazy Catholics am I right?
You may be an agnostic, but it appears you came on this forum to gripe about Pagans. The Pagans have taken an awful thrashing from the Christians on these forums, but I guess you're not aware of that?

Since: Sep 07

Fort Myers, FL

#176 May 22, 2008
Pagan Quest wrote:
<quoted text>
You may be an agnostic, but it appears you came on this forum to gripe about Pagans. The Pagans have taken an awful thrashing from the Christians on these forums, but I guess you're not aware of that?
This is listed on at least 5 forums.

On the Christian forum, there are those there acting just as rude as some of the visitors that come to the pagan board. Doesn't excuse anyone. Just letting you know that it seems to be a disease that effects all the boards. <shrug>

Since: Mar 08

Middleton, WI

#177 May 23, 2008
Spangle wrote:
<quoted text>
This is listed on at least 5 forums.
On the Christian forum, there are those there acting just as rude as some of the visitors that come to the pagan board. Doesn't excuse anyone. Just letting you know that it seems to be a disease that effects all the boards. <shrug>
Agreed. Narrow minded bitterness appears to be a disease suffered by much of topix lately.

“Aut disce aut discede! ”

Since: Feb 08

Rural Mich.

#178 May 31, 2008
Aremis Asling wrote:
<quoted text>
Agreed. Narrow minded bitterness appears to be a disease suffered by much of topix lately.
Yes, but I won't abandon Topix for the sake of the good folks that are here.

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