Wiccan Atheists and Agnostics

Aug 12, 2013 Full story: BellaOnline 284

Can Wiccans also be atheists or agnostics? This may seem a strange question because the worship of the Lord and Lady is so central to many Wiccans' daily spiritual practice.

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Amused

Brookfield, MA

#231 Aug 20, 2013
Kathwynn wrote:
<quoted text>
**YAWN**
The only thing that has happened in this room is a bunch of fool troll showed up to show that a militant atheists are not interested in dialog. Just scoring points.. So go for it..
A person lives his or her faith. Does not need to have to prove it to any one. That fact alone is something an atheist will not understand and an militant atheist despises.. And for the record.. Religion does not thrive on "ignorance" I suspect many atheist hold that opinion as it is just another way to score points on a subject that they themselves are willfully ignorant on.
So you have fun with that.
I will do not plan on coming back here as too many trolls looking to be demonstrate the very worse side of being an atheist. The atheists I know in IRL. Would never insult a person of faith and hate the militant atheist for being fools. Of course no one likes troll anyways.
So enjoy your room trolls.. And be proud of the fact that I will now view atheists on these forums with a more jaundiced eye.. Mission accomplish. Damage done.
Perhaps it will help to confuse it if we run away some more.- Sir Robin

“Mystical Atheism for everyone!”

Since: Nov 08

El Cerrito California

#232 Aug 20, 2013
The important advantage of Wicca over the judo-christian religions is that Wicca is not based on dogma but on experience. Each person experiences the Cosmos to some extent obviously, and than communicates what they can apprehend in their own way but ultimately the Cosmos is what it is.

Wicca is more about exploring what is and growing spiritually than clinging to and arguing about misunderstood laws in ancient books.

I myself consider myself to be a mystical atheist. Does this mean I don't believe in a god?

The word god denotes a concept. If we consider what is in it's totality to be GOD (capitalized ) it is obvious that GOD can not be conceptualized. We think in concepts. Theology is the study of god (a word ). GOD is beyond conceptualizing and can not be studied.

but GOD can be known as a child knows a parent. And as a child grows in it's relationship with it's parent, so do we all grow as children of the one field of consciousness (GOD) of which we are all, each and every one of us, an integral part.

And as the historical Jesus taught, GOD is LOVE.

We learn from the multiplicity of manifestations of forms of the one field of consciousness (LOVE) what it means to be who we are.

Wicca is about growing in the conscious awareness of who we are.
C Shine

Fletcher, NC

#233 Aug 20, 2013
Kathwynn wrote:
<quoted text>
**YAWN**
The only thing that has happened in this room is a bunch of fool troll showed up to show that a militant atheists are not interested in dialog. Just scoring points.. So go for it..
A person lives his or her faith. Does not need to have to prove it to any one. That fact alone is something an atheist will not understand and an militant atheist despises.. And for the record.. Religion does not thrive on "ignorance" I suspect many atheist hold that opinion as it is just another way to score points on a subject that they themselves are willfully ignorant on.
So you have fun with that.
I will do not plan on coming back here as too many trolls looking to be demonstrate the very worse side of being an atheist. The atheists I know in IRL. Would never insult a person of faith and hate the militant atheist for being fools. Of course no one likes troll anyways.
So enjoy your room trolls.. And be proud of the fact that I will now view atheists on these forums with a more jaundiced eye.. Mission accomplish. Damage done.
Cheers to that. I live each day with the best Atheist, and to boot, best man I know. This thread is full of what he refers to as ITG's, and their macho patronizing isn't really different from the same attitude of ITG's in the Abrahamic faiths who seek to shame, guilt, or insult someone into their viewpoint.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#234 Aug 20, 2013
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you, but no. "Spiritual" woo with no evidence is spiritual woo with no evidence, whether it calls itself paganism, islam, christinaity or whatever else. It is still superstition.
Substituting one form of superstition for another does not represent progress.
I am not sure whether there is some inherent type of ethic - of kindness to living beings or concern for the planet - in varieties of paganism. Worship of nature seems silly to me, since nature is full of cruelty. Kindness toward living beings seems very important as an ethic (except one must provide for self-defense and defense of innocents from the predators).

I think there is a big difference between different superstitious notions and they are not all equally bad. Some are much more irrational. some have an endorsement of better - or worse - ethics.

So I would be friendly toward a Wiccan as I would be toward a Christian if that person had extremely fine ethics, even if I thought the spiritual-religious-superstiti ous-theological views of the person were silly. And I would not be very friendly toward an otherwise intelligent atheist or agnostic who had a bad ethical view or bad behavior.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#235 Aug 20, 2013
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps it will help to confuse it if we run away some more.- Sir Robin
Funny - but I wish I knew the source - not from Pooh is it?
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#236 Aug 20, 2013
You sound as intolerant as those whom you call trolls. You obviously are not well enough acquainted with the various atheists on this forum to make a sensible judgment. You can read my comment above to determine whether or not I seem too hostile to you, and please respect my opinion of you recognize that I am not militant or hostile. I am an agnostic atheist, and I value ethics more than theological views. But I know the value of various atheists on this forum. Someone like Bob of Quantum Faith - he's a good guy, not just trying to score points. He wants to free folks from superstition. He means well. Skeptic is arrogant obscene nasty scum, and only wants to insult others and claim to be a knowitall. Once you jump to over-generalizations you become as bad as the folks you are attacking. You cut off dialogue yourself. Look in the mirror - meaning look at your own words - and see how intolerant you are yourself! Then calm down and stick with dialogue if you can manage to be rational, rather than confessional of your own version of a true faith.
Kathwynn wrote:
<quoted text>
**YAWN**
The only thing that has happened in this room is a bunch of fool troll showed up to show that a militant atheists are not interested in dialog. Just scoring points.. So go for it..
A person lives his or her faith. Does not need to have to prove it to any one. That fact alone is something an atheist will not understand and an militant atheist despises.. And for the record.. Religion does not thrive on "ignorance" I suspect many atheist hold that opinion as it is just another way to score points on a subject that they themselves are willfully ignorant on.
So you have fun with that.
I will do not plan on coming back here as too many trolls looking to be demonstrate the very worse side of being an atheist. The atheists I know in IRL. Would never insult a person of faith and hate the militant atheist for being fools. Of course no one likes troll anyways.
So enjoy your room trolls.. And be proud of the fact that I will now view atheists on these forums with a more jaundiced eye.. Mission accomplish. Damage done.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#237 Aug 20, 2013
I also like Amused. I can see how Wiccans can be overly sensitive to atheists who criticize them. I can also see why atheists who have been working against nonsense superstitions can be intolerant of what they see as just another nonsense superstition.

I really wish the discussion could be held on the higher ground of ethics, which is where we must all concentrate - what must we do to save the planet? I would not reject anyone of any theological view who wants to save the planet from the various forces endangering it - including the horrid ethical views tied to horrid religious views, and including also greedy profiteers, and political opportunists, and a variety of lazy fools.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#238 Aug 20, 2013
C Shine wrote:
<quoted text>
Cheers to that. I live each day with the best Atheist, and to boot, best man I know. This thread is full of what he refers to as ITG's, and their macho patronizing isn't really different from the same attitude of ITG's in the Abrahamic faiths who seek to shame, guilt, or insult someone into their viewpoint.
I am not sure what you mean by ITG's - must read back further - nor whom you mean regarding macho patronizing (I have never had problems with Bob or Amused in that regard, though Skeptic is viciously obscene if here is here and bothering you), nor can I accept your accusation that there is no difference between your nonbeliever critics and those who seek to shame, guilt or insult someone into their viewpoint favoring one of the big three bullying religions from the mideast. I will read further back and complain to such a critic if I find one who is particularly nasty - except if it is Skeptic, who is unfit for conversation in my view. But you do not seem to be very balanced if you do not differentiate between the evils of horrid beliefs, and the rational criticisms of rational atheists. Just as the atheists should also differentiate between the less awful beliefs of some believers, and the horrid beliefs of other believers.

You all should focus on the ethics you promote as a result of your views, rather than on the differences in theology. Do not make enemies of those who would share a similar ethic promoting kindness for example, just because of differences regarding supernatural beings. me, i like unicorns.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#239 Aug 20, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well said!
When a religious belief makes you think that who you love makes you less ethical, when a religious belief makes you think that it is reasonable to kill someone who disagrees, when a religious belief means you think the government shouldn't teach what science has discovered, THEN your religious belief deserves no protection: it is a threat to society.
Religion should not be illegal: stupidity cannot be legislated. But we should guard against the worst manifestations.
very good reply to very good comment from Bob. I admit I regard Wiccans as sort of exotics - maybe like fairies or leprecauns?- and see them as fanciful, less threatening to society than the rightwing organized religions. I really need to know whether any Wiccans are rightwing Republicans before I can know what I think of them!
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#240 Aug 20, 2013
scambuster wrote:
<quoted text>
Fair enough... I think that I agree with you on all points. Well said!
nice to meet you. another rational person to add to my list.
Amused

Brookfield, MA

#241 Aug 20, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> Funny - but I wish I knew the source - not from Pooh is it?
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#242 Aug 20, 2013
good, another one. folks who have rational discussions with Bob or Amused or Polymath get added to my list of good intelligent folks, even if one reserves the right to quibble on various details. I advise you not to overgeneralize from a few examples from any group, unless you find that they are all so brainwashed and mechanical that there is no variety. Even then, they might have private views or doubts they dare not express - there are even escapees* from the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints, poor things*. Some guys* even get kicked out so the polygamist bigwigs can bet all the cute girls for themselves. So I bet there are lots of different attitudes among Wiccans. Generally I liked your comment, however.
Lelouch0 wrote:
Yeah, I heard you say on here earlier that you don't really mind Wiccans. I tend to disagree. The only one I met was really judgmental towards me when I told them I was an atheist. That's a typical reaction that I've come to expect from religious folk, so I usually just keep my mouth shut in real life and don't say a word about it.
Online is refreshing for me, because I can vent out my frustrations. It seems to me that online religious people are more nasty than they are in real life....you'd think they would want to follow the teachings of their sect/doctrine that usually tell them NOT to act that way...but then again, hypocrisy is typically a facet of such organizations.
It's not just religion that's guilty of such wrongdoings, though. Political organizations often act in dirty or underhanded ways, things that would ordinarily get them in trouble if they didn't have money to bribe officials with. The same goes for cults. There was a cult in Mexico that was allowed to drink LSD and become high because they said it was part of their "tradition" and the authorities didn't want to tread upon their "freedom."
I'm all for equality, Bob, but when religions start asking the government to turn a blind eye to them when they start abusing children, start mutilating or killing women or gay people, start dealing in drugs, I'm against it. Who do they think they are, asking to get a free ticket with such things? If we have to serve jail time for doing such things, they are not exempt from it either.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#243 Aug 20, 2013
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> very good reply to very good comment from Bob. I admit I regard Wiccans as sort of exotics - maybe like fairies or leprecauns?- and see them as fanciful, less threatening to society than the rightwing organized religions. I really need to know whether any Wiccans are rightwing Republicans before I can know what I think of them!
As with any generality, there are exceptions. But most pagans and Wiccans I have met have had ethics that are closer to my own than the majority of Christians. I have, for the most part, found them tolerant of alternative paths and interested in helping those who search. But there is a very strong undercurrent of irrationality in paganism, just as there is in most religions. I find that the 'woo woo' stuff tends to bother me, but that is my issue.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#244 Aug 20, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
As with any generality, there are exceptions. But most pagans and Wiccans I have met have had ethics that are closer to my own than the majority of Christians. I have, for the most part, found them tolerant of alternative paths and interested in helping those who search. But there is a very strong undercurrent of irrationality in paganism, just as there is in most religions. I find that the 'woo woo' stuff tends to bother me, but that is my issue.
It would be an issue with me, too. I guess I want it all - rational thought and truly good ethics. And I feel lucky to know nonbelievers on topix who seem close to that - at least they do not attack my statements regarding ethics and politics, even if they do not discuss their own very much. I suspected that pagan types would be both a bit more moral than centrist and rightwing Christians, and about the same as leftist Christians, and only slightly inferior to those of progressive atheists, who are more worried and urgent about the danger to the planet and life from global warming because we do not have any faith that some supernatural rescuer will appear - not God or Gaia either one.

“And I won't watch this anymore”

Since: Jun 10

the alternate future

#245 Aug 20, 2013
[QUOTE who="haven't forgotten"]good, another one. folks who have rational discussions with Bob or Amused or Polymath get added to my list of good intelligent folks, even if one reserves the right to quibble on various details. I advise you not to overgeneralize from a few examples from any group, unless you find that they are all so brainwashed and mechanical that there is no variety. Even then, they might have private views or doubts they dare not express - there are even escapees* from the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints, poor things*. Some guys* even get kicked out so the polygamist bigwigs can bet all the cute girls for themselves. So I bet there are lots of different attitudes among Wiccans. Generally I liked your comment, however.<quoted text>[/QUOTE]

Bob is a very nice guy. I just talk to whoever is online at the moment. Yeah, that's true of any group or organization-my only problem with religion is that sometimes the believers will act in horrible ways towards those who are not of their sect or belief or even to their own. Of course they all have doubt in their beliefs-to me, they seem silly, but to them, sometimes their faith is the only thing they have that's keeping them going.

I met a woman once who had been through so much tragedy in her life (she told me it was quite a sad story) that the only thing she had was her faith. She asked me if I read the Bible. I lied and said yes, for her own benefit. Who was I to criticize her when we all have our own little quirks and odd things we believe?
Baba Booey

Euless, TX

#246 Aug 20, 2013
I hope you all like fire

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#247 Aug 20, 2013
scambuster wrote:
<quoted text>
Fair enough... I think that I agree with you on all points. Well said!
Thanks!

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#248 Aug 20, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well said!

When a religious belief makes you think that who you love makes you less ethical, when a religious belief makes you think that it is reasonable to kill someone who disagrees, when a religious belief means you think the government shouldn't teach what science has discovered, THEN your religious belief deserves no protection: it is a threat to society.

Religion should not be illegal: stupidity cannot be legislated. But we should guard against the worst manifestations.
Thanks, and I agree with your observations, above.

I also agree-- making it illegal would be a mistake. Fanatical religion seems to thrive on such things, and it'd just spread.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#249 Aug 20, 2013
Kathwynn wrote:
<quoted text>
**YAWN**
The only thing that has happened in this room is a bunch of fool troll showed up to show that a militant atheists are not interested in dialog. Just scoring points.. So go for it..
A person lives his or her faith. Does not need to have to prove it to any one. That fact alone is something an atheist will not understand and an militant atheist despises.. And for the record.. Religion does not thrive on "ignorance" I suspect many atheist hold that opinion as it is just another way to score points on a subject that they themselves are willfully ignorant on.
So you have fun with that.
I will do not plan on coming back here as too many trolls looking to be demonstrate the very worse side of being an atheist. The atheists I know in IRL. Would never insult a person of faith and hate the militant atheist for being fools. Of course no one likes troll anyways.
So enjoy your room trolls.. And be proud of the fact that I will now view atheists on these forums with a more jaundiced eye.. Mission accomplish. Damage done.
STILL nothing here that contributes to the discussion.

Thanks for proving you are just...

... a troll.

A **wordy** one, sure...

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#250 Aug 20, 2013
Grandpasmurf952 wrote:
The important advantage of Wicca over the judo-christian religions is that Wicca is not based on dogma but on experience. Each person experiences the Cosmos to some extent obviously, and than communicates what they can apprehend in their own way but ultimately the Cosmos is what it is.

Wicca is more about exploring what is and growing spiritually than clinging to and arguing about misunderstood laws in ancient books.
I myself consider myself to be a mystical atheist. Does this mean I don't believe in a god?

The word god denotes a concept. If we consider what is in it's totality to be GOD (capitalized ) it is obvious that GOD can not be conceptualized. We think in concepts. Theology is the study of god (a word ). GOD is beyond conceptualizing and can not be studied.
but GOD can be known as a child knows a parent. And as a child grows in it's relationship with it's parent, so do we all grow as children of the one field of consciousness (GOD) of which we are all, each and every one of us, an integral part.

And as the historical Jesus taught, GOD is LOVE.
We learn from the multiplicity of manifestations of forms of the one field of consciousness (LOVE) what it means to be who we are.
Wicca is about growing in the conscious awareness of who we are.
Hi, GrampaSmurf! Long time no see-- good to see you still going strong

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