“Reality = Playdough”

Since: Aug 07

Merced, CA

#21 Sep 21, 2007
Hello wrote:
LionSpirit,
I just finished re-reading your first post on this thread. I'm not going to waste space by re-posting it, to comment on it.
This isn't a question. It's a statement of belief and why you think someone should belief it based upon the persons religus belief or creed. And why you think they are wrong if they don't belief as you do about their belief.
It's an attack. Not an honest question. Not honestly seeking answers as to why.
You state as fact, that eating meat is causing suffering. And base your whole comments based upon that assumption. And complain that you can't understand why others don't read the rede as you do, because of your assumptions that onlly as a vegan, would they not cause suffering. And only by being a vegan could they only truly follow the rede.
And yet, you wonder why you bring up this matter to other wiccians, you get the response you do? Your agruement isn't about the rede. It's about eating meat. It's about YOUR interpitation, not others. YOur interpitation of who and who can not suffer in this matter. You show your blindness to all that is around you, right off the bat.
You have brought this up here, and it has plainly been spelled (no pun inteneded) out for you that plants also bleed and feel.
Eating both meat and plants causes suffering.
That is your answer.
'
Wow I must be off my game for not seeing that bit of ill logic. Good work Hello, your dead on now that I took the time to think of it.
LionSpirit

Salford, UK

#22 Sep 23, 2007
1. I asked questions about the Wiccan Rede. I stated my reasons for asking the questions. Saying I'm the pot calling the kettle black doesn't change the truth.
1a. To hopefully avoid any more erroneous accusations that I'm trying to convert people to vegetarianism/veganism, I won't explain how eating meat/fish (and even drinking milk and other animal products, though most people do not seem to realise this) IS taking part in the suffering of animals, but there's always google if you're interested in learning about this.
2. Plants don't have cntral nervous systems. And think about this: Animals have some form of defence sgainst attack, even if it's simply the ability to get out of the way or to hide. With some exceptions (hence plants I would not eat), plants are basically stuck in the ground easy to kill with no way of avoiding it - don't you think it's just a bit ridiculous that a loving Supreme Being would deliberately put feeling creatures in such a position? The only plausible reasons that come to mind are:(a) the Supreme Being is actually really cruel, or (b) the plants do NOT have feelings and therefore it does not cause suffering to eat them.
3. If a religion has a commandment forbids doing something that causes suffering, and a person who claims to be part of that religion deliberately and needlessly does something that causes suffering, then of course that person is blatantly ignoring a commandment of their religion - be they Wiccan or any other religion, no matter how much they claim otherwise. So naturally (see 2), eating animals and thus demanding the suffering that goes into meat and fish production in order for the demand to be satisfied is causing suffering and is therefore blatantly ignore the words 'harm none', unless there is a very good reason for a particular person to continue the consumption of meat and fish.
4. I was not attacking anyone. I was asking a question akin to asking a Christian "why do you still hold a grudge against [a specific person] when Jesus commands you to forgive others?" - if you want to continue eating meat/fish/any other animal product, that's your choice and so be it, but you can hardly honestly claim to be following the Wiccan Rede considering the harm that goes into such production.
5. If it's down to a person's individual interpretation, then what on earth is the point of the Wiccan Rede? You might as well just use the last four words and leave it at that - because if you believe it's wrong to kill someone for dishonoring a family member, but someone else believes it's justified, then does that make it O.K. because they're following their interpretation of the Wiccan Rede? If not, why not? Now of course this may be an unusual situation, as (in my opinion), humans are naturally caring creatures (though as is obvious by the amount of meat eaters of any faith, seemingly happy to eat those that have suffered so long as they are not witness to the suffering), but the question still remains - if it's down to individual beliefs (I believe eating meat is cruel / I believe eating meat is not cruel at all) then why the Rede? What's the point?
5 b. I stated my belief about the Rede after asking questions. I didn't say "this is the right belief about the Wiccan Rede and everyone else should follow it", I simply stated my belief about it.
Hello

Fort Myers, FL

#23 Sep 23, 2007
Aghm.. again. You asked the question, basing it on your belief and that your belief is correct. And any other view point is wrong. Your first post drips with it.

The only answer to the question is to discuss your personal view point. Answers you have all ready heard and dismissed,I'm sure.

Dear, the whole question wasn't honest. It was to start an argument about your view point. You all ready KNOW that not everyone agrees with it. What do you expect, BUT a disagreement.

You DO say 'this is the right belief" when you make a statement that eatign meat causes suffering so one should be vegan. Your comments are very firm that it's the 'right belief'. And it's on the bases of this 'right belief' that you want to discuss the Rede and how those that don't practice the 'right belief' are failing to uphold the rede.

Since I belief that plants feel suffering, that they bleed, scab, heal, etc. I believe that eatting plants also causes suffering. The way I see it.. your the pot calling the kettle black. No way around it.

I can see why you want to ignore the plants suffering. Since it seems the reason your vegan is because of animals suffering. To thinking about plants also suffering, would make your reasons mute. But it doesn't have to be. You would just have to rethink the 'why' you do it. There ARE other reasons, surely. The vegans I know certainly do and they enjoy being vegans.

“Totus viae ad deam”

Since: Aug 07

Salt Lake City

#24 Sep 23, 2007
LionSpirit wrote:
2. Plants don't have cntral nervous systems. And think about this: Animals have some form of defence sgainst attack, even if it's simply the ability to get out of the way or to hide. With some exceptions (hence plants I would not eat), plants are basically stuck in the ground easy to kill with no way of avoiding it - don't you think it's just a bit ridiculous that a loving Supreme Being would deliberately put feeling creatures in such a position? The only plausible reasons that come to mind are:(a) the Supreme Being is actually really cruel, or (b) the plants do NOT have feelings and therefore it does not cause suffering to eat them.
First, who has EVER said the Wiccan Gods are loving? They are both Loving and Cruel, as nature is. Now, you'll begin, maybe, to see why I said Nature is our best teacher.
Second, playing the "Plants don't have a central nervous system" card is a moot point when you're talking about a philosophical system that recognizes divinity in all of creation and thus recognizes that all things are living (how can they not be if they too are part of the gods?).
LionSpirit wrote:
3. If a religion has a commandment forbids doing something that causes suffering, and a person who claims to be part of that religion deliberately and needlessly does something that causes suffering, then of course that person is blatantly ignoring a commandment of their religion - be they Wiccan or any other religion, no matter how much they claim otherwise. So naturally (see 2), eating animals and thus demanding the suffering that goes into meat and fish production in order for the demand to be satisfied is causing suffering and is therefore blatantly ignore the words 'harm none', unless there is a very good reason for a particular person to continue the consumption of meat and fish.
Again, you're not approaching this from a Wiccan point of view. Wicca has NO commandments. In order to understand why Wiccans behave the way they do, especially when it comes to the Rede, you have to change your vocabulary and your perception.
LionSpirit wrote:
4. I was not attacking anyone. I was asking a question akin to asking a Christian "why do you still hold a grudge against [a specific person] when Jesus commands you to forgive others?" - if you want to continue eating meat/fish/any other animal product, that's your choice and so be it, but you can hardly honestly claim to be following the Wiccan Rede considering the harm that goes into such production.
Again, the Wiccan Rede is not something to be followed. It is not a commandment nor is it a law. Perhaps some deeper study into Wicca would be advisable to give you a more mature understanding.

“Totus viae ad deam”

Since: Aug 07

Salt Lake City

#25 Sep 23, 2007
LionSpirit wrote:
5. If it's down to a person's individual interpretation, then what on earth is the point of the Wiccan Rede?
The point of the Wiccan Rede, in my opinion, is to give people still stuck in thinking like a person just coming out of one of the Book Religions something to read and create their own exegesis on.
Even the 10 commandments were/are/will forever be debated among its adherents. That's the wonderful and beautiful thing about religion--it's all relative.
LionSpirit wrote:
You might as well just use the last four words and leave it at that
There's much more to the Wiccan Rede than "An' ye harm none." It can be a source of inspiration, of knowledge, of connection to divinity, and of lore among other things.
LionSpirit wrote:
- because if you believe it's wrong to kill someone for dishonoring a family member, but someone else believes it's justified, then does that make it O.K. because they're following their interpretation of the Wiccan Rede? If not, why not?
First, my beliefs about killing other humans stems more from fear of imprisonment than anything else. Second, there are other suggestions throughout the Wiccan religion that prompt the practitioner to be kind rather than cruel.
LionSpirit wrote:
5 b. I stated my belief about the Rede after asking questions. I didn't say "this is the right belief about the Wiccan Rede and everyone else should follow it", I simply stated my belief about it.
We appreciate your interpretation of the Rede. We'd also very much appreciate it if you would give the same credence to our understanding of it as well.
There is much to be learned from a discussion such as this. It calls into question how Wiccans are perceived by the outside world, especially when such a small portion of the Wiccan faith is known--the most often (apparently) quoted piece of Wiccan literature being the Rede.
Of course, there will always be people that come out of the woodwork and make the attempt at interpreting Wiccan beliefs without actually making the work of studying them before-hand. Given our responses, I feel that everyone (Wiccan and other) have made the attempt at enlightening others about magical traditions and have come across these people many times. It warms my heart to see that we've moved away from defending ourselves based on what we aren't and moved forward to defending ourselves based on what we are.

“Pagan Pirates Unite!”

Since: Jan 07

Monte Vista

#26 Sep 24, 2007
LionSpirit wrote:
1.
2. Plants don't have cntral nervous systems. And think about this: Animals have some form of defence sgainst attack, even if it's simply the ability to get out of the way or to hide. With some exceptions (hence plants I would not eat), plants are basically stuck in the ground easy to kill with no way of avoiding it - don't you think it's just a bit ridiculous that a loving Supreme Being would deliberately put feeling creatures in such a position? The only plausible reasons that come to mind are:(a) the Supreme Being is actually really cruel, or (b) the plants do NOT have feelings and therefore it does not cause suffering to eat them.
3. If a religion has a commandment forbids doing something that causes suffering, and a person who claims to be part of that religion deliberately and needlessly does something that causes suffering, then of course that person is blatantly ignoring a commandment of their religion - be they Wiccan or any other religion, no matter how much they claim otherwise. So naturally (see 2), eating animals and thus demanding the suffering that goes into meat and fish production in order for the demand to be satisfied is causing suffering and is therefore blatantly ignore the words 'harm none', unless there is a very good reason for a particular person to continue the consumption of meat and fish.
Your answers are out there in the limitless reaches of the web.

Take a minute and read this piece.

http://www.department13designs.com/vegan.html

Killing plants or animals for food is part of the grand design. I'm not putting you down or trying to hurt your feelings. I'm a farmer and the more veges you eat the better my life becomes. I don't want you to believe for a minute that I'm against you in any way. I love all people. To allow those you love to live without discovery is against my faith. Living without knowing the truth or believing it is so wrong according to Tianic tradition.
There is a purpose in the food chain. Man lives on land at the top of the food chain. He also is gifted with creation so he might plant seeds to raise crops and has the understanding of domestication, so that he can insure all beings eat.
It is a crime in my faith to allow for starvation due to hunger for food, hunger for knowledge and hunger for understanding.

You have a passion for the animals and fish of this most beloved Earth and for that passion, you are truly a gift to all people. Please temper judgment with understanding and anger with understanding. We are the keepers. We are the Guardians of the Mother that feeds clothes and houses us. Your protecting the rights and lives of animals is totally respectable.

We are the wisest of beings on the earth. I realize that in most it seems that wisdom doesn't shine, however... All of the edible plants and animals are food, this does not exclude humans being feasted on by other beasts. That is Nature and the way of things.

The Wiccan Rede does not in any way alter the nature of man nor does it attempt to.

"Bide within the Law you must, in perfect Love and perfect Trust.
Live you must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give."

By pushing an opinion on others, one removes fairness. Also take no more than your share. Unfortunately you have heard more than your share on this topic. I bid you adieu.
En tis blethec.(In all things, be blessed)

Since: Sep 07

Supply, NC

#27 Sep 24, 2007
Testing
heavymetalgeek

Johnson City, TN

#28 Sep 24, 2007
Wow, I must say that this "debate" has been very informative. I'm not going to post one way or the other, since all of my arguments have already been said, but I have learned a lot and thank all who have participated.

Since: Mar 07

Tennessee

#29 Sep 24, 2007
First of all, the Rede is not a RULE, it is ADVICE. That's what the word Rede means. It means advice or counsel. So the Rede gives us advice on how to live our lives.

Secondly, the Rede does not say that we cannot harm anyone or anything. That is a common misconception and it is incorrect. If that were the case we'd all have to live on sunlight and air because we certainly harm those poor veggies when we haul them kicking and screaming out of the ground. It isn't possible for us to live on this earth without doing harm to something somewhere. So trying to say that the Rede forbids us from doing harm is simply foolish.

What the Rede actually says is that any actions which do not cause harm we can go right ahead and do. The Rede is conspicuously silent on what we should do about actions which do or may cause harm. In that case the Rede wisely leaves it up the the ethics of the Witch and the specific situation they find themselves in.

So, if you think about your choices and chose to be a vegetarian that's fine. But don't think that it's somehow not doing any harm because that isn't true. And it doesn't make you a more moral person that one who choses ethically to eat meat.

As someone who likes a good steak, I have considered my choice carefully and I have chosen to eat meat. That being said, I also feel that I then have an obligation to work to make certain that the animals which are raised for my food are raised and slaughtered in a humane fashion. And I remember that that package of steak in the freezer came from a living animal, one whose spirit I honor when I sit down to my meal.

-Lark-

“Reality = Playdough”

Since: Aug 07

Merced, CA

#30 Sep 24, 2007
heavymetalgeek wrote:
Wow, I must say that this "debate" has been very informative. I'm not going to post one way or the other, since all of my arguments have already been said, but I have learned a lot and thank all who have participated.
And here is wisdom. I feel you made the right choice in not getting involved in this ball of wax.:)

“Follow your dreams”

Since: Jul 07

Sydney, Australia

#31 Sep 24, 2007
Where did it say that you had to be vegan or vegetarian to be wiccan/pagan??? I must have missed something there...
Hecate23

Lake Zurich, IL

#32 Sep 24, 2007
The Gnome wrote:
<quoted text>
And here is wisdom. I feel you made the right choice in not getting involved in this ball of wax.:)
LOL! I'm not Wiccan but Pagan, so let me expound on MY understanding if I can. First of all it's been scientifically proven if you cut part of a leaf off, the aura of the entire leaf is still present hours, and even days later. So saying that plants can't FEEL "pain" just isn't a proven fact. They can't yell or scream like an animal or a human, but it IS a fact that if they are tampered with or ignored they die. It's been said that they can feel emotions within the house that they're kept at. And that they grow or respond to vibrations accordingly.
Cavemen were hunters, and there are even canniballistic sects that eat human flesh as a holy sacrament. I appreciate your vegan beliefs and have friends that are vegan; but some of us believe that sending love and thanks to the angus and vegatables that are our dinner, is sufficient. Peace.

“Knowledge is understanding.”

Since: Sep 07

Patrick Springs, VA

#33 Sep 25, 2007
The Gnome wrote:
<quoted text>
And here is wisdom. I feel you made the right choice in not getting involved in this ball of wax.:)
Thanks.

Since: Jul 07

Location hidden

#34 Sep 25, 2007
heavymetalgeek wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks.
Hi Heavymetalgeek, can I ask you something, why have you called yourself geek? lol from what ive read of your posts your a very level headed lively individual. I just wanted to say Welcome to the boards, Brightest blessings.

“Knowledge is understanding.”

Since: Sep 07

Patrick Springs, VA

#35 Sep 25, 2007
Kethry wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Heavymetalgeek, can I ask you something, why have you called yourself geek? lol from what ive read of your posts your a very level headed lively individual. I just wanted to say Welcome to the boards, Brightest blessings.
Thanks a lot, and I call myself such, because I am. I love technolody and video games, so I'm a geeky person, but I'm proud of who I am. Be blessed yourself.

“Knowledge is understanding.”

Since: Sep 07

Patrick Springs, VA

#36 Sep 25, 2007
Err... I typo alot. *technology
LionSpirit

Salford, UK

#37 Oct 5, 2007
This is a two-part post due to character limit.
(NOTE: For the purpose of this post, I am referring to SO-CALLED 'consensual' child molestation.)

Well I tried to ask questions but the majority of you decided to make assumptions and use those INCORRECT assumptions about me and my post to attack me, so although I am not going to retaliate by returning the attacks, what I am about to say is a statement rather than a question:

Just to avoid further argument, although I still disagree with much that has been said, purely to avoid further argument I will go along with the idea that plants can feel pain and suffering in the same way animals can. I'll even go along with the idea that God(s) and Goddess(es) of Wicca can be cruel, or are even often cruel.

But you know very well, judging from all the veggies and vegans who haven't died of illnesses, that you can survive without meat/fish (and with some more effort and possibly more money, without any animal products). And I'm sure you also know that if you lived on a purely meat-fish diet with no veg/other plants, you would get ill pretty quickly. But by using the 'fact' that plants suffer in the same way as animals as an excuse for harming animals is basically like saying "Even though I know I can easily survive without meat/fish, the fact that plants suffer and feel pain makes it O.K. to cause pain and suffering to animals as well" - completely illogical. It's like me, if I ate meat, saying "Even though I know I can easily survive without eating humans, the fact that animals suffer and feel pain makes it O.K. to cause pain and suffering to humans as well".

You CAN easily survive and be very healthy without meat/fish. You can NOT, to my knowledge, easily survive without plants/veg etc. Therefore, to follow the Wiccan Rede as far as is REASONABLY and PRACTICALY possible, not eating meat/fish is a good choice.

Now time and time again the "it's just a guideline" has popped up. Well if you truly believe that, then you can't really complain if someone claiming to be Wiccan murders their kid because their kid wouldn't be quiet - after all, it's "just a guideline" so doesn't have the same authority as a rule. And because such a guideline is seen in so many different ways by so many people who see it as just a guideline, there is, as I said, no point in it. This is easily evidenced by the vast ways in which Wiccans live their lives - some recycling their stuff but not buying recyled good, some buying recycled goods only, some buying beeswax candles because they believe they are more environmentally friendly, some not doing because they don't want to cause harm to bees, ect etc etc.

Then there's the "it's down to personal interpretation" comment. Well if that's so, then why do so many Wiccans condemn those who are thought to be child molestors or condemn those who are thought to advocate child molestation, such as Gavin Frost and Yvonne Frost (authors of the extremely controversial and much condemned 'Good Witch's Bible', not to be confused with books with similar titles by other authors)? Surely if the Rede is down to personal interpretation, then if the Frosts have the interpretation that they are not breaking the Rede by either advocating or taking part in child molestation because the child "consents" (yes I know kids are too young too freely consent, but it's personal interpretation, remember?), and the child enjoys it, then surely they are still adhering to the Rede?
LionSpirit

Salford, UK

#38 Oct 5, 2007
(SECOND PART OF POST)
That sounds sickening doesn't it? But by watering down the Rede to either a near-useless guideline or by saying it's down to personal interpretation rather than advocating the following of the Rede as far as is reasonably and practically possible, the above paragraph is EXACTLY what you are saying is O.K.- because it's either a guideline and/or down to personal interpretation and therefore what you feel breaks the Rede is fine for others to do (as with the animal/environment examples above), or it's a rule that's to be followed as far as reasonably and practically possible and therefore molesting children (and, despite you arguing till you're blue in the face, deliberately and unnecessarily eating meat/fish, no matter how much you try to convince yourself otherwise just so you don't have to make the tiny and easy 'sacrifice' of giving it up) CLEARLY breaks the Rede. It's your choice.
LionSpirit

Salford, UK

#39 Oct 5, 2007
Test
LionSpirit

Salford, UK

#40 Oct 5, 2007
Sorry messed up due to posting probs, ignore above

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