What is the point of the Wiccan Rede?

What is the point of the Wiccan Rede?

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LionSpirit

Salford, UK

#1 Sep 17, 2007
Or at least the most widely-known 8 words of it anyway: An it harm none, do what ye will (or slight variations)- meaning of course you can do what you want as long as it harms none ('an' being an old English word for 'if')- what's the point of this?

The reason I ask, is that many Wiccans are not vegan, not even vegetarian, so are contributing in some way to animal suffering when they don't need to. When ever I bring this up, I hear that "the Rede is just a guideline / it's your own personal interpretation of it" - so if it's a guideline and doesn't have to be followed, what's the point of it? And if it's down to individual interpretation, then what if my interpretation says I can kill you if for example I believe you're evil because I believe all people of your skin colour are evil - is that wrong, or is it just my interpretation of the Rede (I'm getting rid of evil according to me) so therefore it's O.K., just like contributing unnecessarily to the suffering of animals is O.K. according to some other peoples' interpretation of the Rede?

My view is it was INTENDED to be a rule that is supposed to be followed as far as reasonably possible and practical. And it seems to me that the majority of Wiccans blatantly ignore it and use excuses (such as the above) for doing so.

If you're not going to follow the main law of Wicca, why call yourself a Wiccan?

“Totus viae ad deam”

Since: Aug 07

Salt Lake City

#2 Sep 17, 2007
First, you've got to take a look at some fundamental differences between Wicca and other religions. There are NO commandments--intepretation of suggestions that have been handed down or, as in the case of the Rede, written in the 70's or thereabouts.

Second, you must understand the differences between the way Wiccans think and the way other religious people think. The Universe (Nature) is our greatest teacher--Natural Law (Physics) and its interpretation into a folksier mindset, educates us differently that a book. For instance, the Law of Return, aka The Three-Fold Law, the Law of Karma, etc. isn't a law we follow, it's a law that is: "What you send out comes back to thee so ever mind the Law of Three."

Now, along the same lines of Nature being our teacher: Humans are hunters! We have canines (eye teeth) that are used for ripping flesh. We would not be where we are today if our ancestors didn't partake of the protien that allowed us to begin growing brain cells, increasing our intelligence, etc. However, Wiccans are often times one of the few religions that give thanks to the animal AND vegetables on our plates for giving its life so we may live. Which is more cruel? Slaughtering an animal and consuming its flesh, recognizing its value as a spiritual being OR declaring everyone must be vegan, confer upon the animals citizenship and then permanently place them as second class citizens?

Additionally, as stated earlier, the Rede was an invention of the 70's. While many practitioners of the Craft accept its guidance, others do not.

In the end, we must--if we are to call ourselves Wiccans--turn to Nature for the truest of all lessons. While the poetry written by man is beautiful, it will never compare to the breath taking awe and indescribable might of Nature.
LionSpirit

Salford, UK

#3 Sep 17, 2007
First off, look at our teeth. Every "other" carnivorous animal has the sharp pointy teeth required to kill it's prey - humans don't. We also have completely different digestive systems - the digestive systems of carnivorous animals get all the nutrients of the eaten animal then quickly get rid of it. Our digestive systems leave animals to dangerously rot (hence vegetarianism being healthier than eating meat - less chance of various illnesses such as cancer etc)

Second, you mention interpretations - I have already discussed this point in my original post.

Thirdly, if I eat a human who has been killed so that I may eat that human, does saying "thanks" then make it O.K.- better than not causing their death? Because that's what you seem to be suggesting - that it doesn't matter what we do as long as we say thanks after we've done it. And as I'm sure you know, animals don't "give their lives" - they are cruelly tortured and killed before they end up on a humans' plate.

Fourthly, I didn't "declare" anything, I asked questions. And why must animals be second class if everybody is a vegan - there's no logic in that at all. Even if there was, would you prefer to be a second class citizen yet treated farily well, or have massive members of your species killed so that another species who had no actualy NEED to eat meat could eat your species?

And yes, the Rede was a recent invention - but so was Wicca and the Rede is the most widely-quoted source when Wiccans are accused of practicing black magic, devil woship, etc, to show that we do not harm. In addition, though the rede may be recent, it is actually a version of the Witches Rune, which has been around for centuries (and is presumably the reason why, according to statistics from the U.S., around half of Pagans are vegetarians or vegans (as I'm sure you know, there are many Pagans who are not Wiccans and who are from a long line of Pagans).

You also talk about the Law of Karma in its various names - yes indeed, it's not a rule, it's a thing that happens. So shouldn't that be all the more reason to NOT unnecessarily contribute to the suffering of others?

And sorry but your comment at the end about nature seems kind of irrelevant - what does it have to do with my questions about the Wiccan Rede?

And one more thing - to me, it doesn't seem like much recognition of a spiritual being's value to slaughter and eat that being - whether it's a human or any other being.

“Reality = Playdough”

Since: Aug 07

Merced, CA

#4 Sep 17, 2007
LionSpirit wrote:
First off, look at our teeth. Every "other" carnivorous animal has the sharp pointy teeth required to kill it's prey - humans don't.
But we do have hands and tool use ability to make up for that. Many chimpanzees eat flesh too and their teeth is more like ours than that of a canine or feline.
We also have completely different digestive systems - the digestive systems of carnivorous animals get all the nutrients of the eaten animal then quickly get rid of it. Our digestive systems leave animals to dangerously rot (hence vegetarianism being healthier than eating meat - less chance of various illnesses such as cancer etc)
As tool users we can prepare our food hence making it easier to digest.

Now are you questioning the Rede as a set of rule/guidelines or trying to convince use of the health benefits of vegetarianism?

“Reality = Playdough”

Since: Aug 07

Merced, CA

#5 Sep 17, 2007
I would also like to add this thought if I may.(Not like there is much of a choice here.)

If your a vegetarian then good for you. I do understand that it is not a simple thing to be so and I commend you on your ability to do so. But just because that is your way dose not make it a truth on how others should live. If we wish to take "harm none" vary literally then we are also harming vegetables too and need to stop eating anything that grows. All I am trying to say is perhaps your getting a tad to passionate about this issue.
Renee

United States

#6 Sep 17, 2007
LionSpirit wrote:
Or at least the most widely-known 8 words of it anyway: An it harm none, do what ye will (or slight variations)- meaning of course you can do what you want as long as it harms none ('an' being an old English word for 'if')- what's the point of this?
The reason I ask, is that many Wiccans are not vegan, not even vegetarian, so are contributing in some way to animal suffering when they don't need to. When ever I bring this up, I hear that "the Rede is just a guideline / it's your own personal interpretation of it" - so if it's a guideline and doesn't have to be followed, what's the point of it? And if it's down to individual interpretation, then what if my interpretation says I can kill you if for example I believe you're evil because I believe all people of your skin colour are evil - is that wrong, or is it just my interpretation of the Rede (I'm getting rid of evil according to me) so therefore it's O.K., just like contributing unnecessarily to the suffering of animals is O.K. according to some other peoples' interpretation of the Rede?
My view is it was INTENDED to be a rule that is supposed to be followed as far as reasonably possible and practical. And it seems to me that the majority of Wiccans blatantly ignore it and use excuses (such as the above) for doing so.
If you're not going to follow the main law of Wicca, why call yourself a Wiccan?
Well, the most important thing, i think, is that the Rede is NOT a law or a rule. It is a suggestion, a piece of advice- which is exactly what the word "rede" means. Advice, councel.

It's not really your place to say that someone's not living up to the laws of Wicca because they're not vegan. It is impossible to live life without causing harm. Everyhting you do causes harm somehow...just by walking, you kill living creatures on the ground. Just by eating- even vegetables, you do damage to plants. If someone is so gung-ho about being vegan to not kill they might as well go fruitarian. If you ate a carrot today, you ate something that was once alive but was killed for your eating pleasure.

Yeah, I think it would be better if there was less cruelty involved...organic, free-range meat is definitely preferable to the industrial farm-raised stuff.
Hello

Fort Myers, FL

#7 Sep 17, 2007
Pot calling the Kettle black.

Life force is also in plants. Plants bleed, scab over and heal. Get sick, wither and die. They bread, they eat, they reproduce, they die. They also move. As the sun moves, the plant will sway towards it's light.

Might as well come down off your high horse. IT's not as perfect as you think up there. Being vegan for the reasons your implying, isn't any better then not being a vegan. It's even worse. Cause your denying that the plants died so that you might live. You are denying what they did for you.

Nothing wrong with being vegan. But it doesn't give one a moral high ground.
Interested

AOL

#8 Sep 17, 2007
I am not Wiccan. This rede is strange to me. There is however a similarity. Take a moment and point at something with your finger, you will see three fingers pointing back at you? Do you see that?

I am not Wiccan, I know that conflict exsists in this world. I Know evil must be confronted. In cases of injustice I do not think of multiples of three. I know how to point an accusing finger.

Tuck your elbow close to your side, Extend your forearm out palm flat to the ground. Put your thumb down, pointed to the ground, then touch your middle finger, ring finger and pinkie so that all are facing the ground, with only your index finger pointing...the entire hand is now saying with one pointed finger and the rest pointed to the ground, "Let The Earth Be My Witness"...

Say what you will, it will come to pass.

Just a note, when you point like this you will feel a slight stress in the forearm and bicep close to the elbow, that is a warning not to do such to often.

“Pagan Pirates Unite!”

Since: Jan 07

Monte Vista

#9 Sep 17, 2007
I'm not Wiccan. I'm not vegan nor vegetarian so I wont bite you for your belief that meat is bad. I am a farmer and I raise lots of nummy vegetables. My Temple folks all enjoy the fruits of my labor. But there is something you should know. Plants scream when their jerked from the ground. They scream when the fruit is picked from them. They show the same amount of brain waves (similar measuring devices) that you do. So when you scream about meat eaters don't feel too guilty when you eat that potato or those carrots. Oh... Lettuce screams the loudest.

“Totus viae ad deam”

Since: Aug 07

Salt Lake City

#10 Sep 18, 2007
LionSpirit wrote:
First off, look at our teeth. Every "other" carnivorous animal has the sharp pointy teeth required to kill it's prey - humans don't. We also have completely different digestive systems - the digestive systems of carnivorous animals get all the nutrients of the eaten animal then quickly get rid of it. Our digestive systems leave animals to dangerously rot (hence vegetarianism being healthier than eating meat - less chance of various illnesses such as cancer etc)
As humans have evolved, so have our digestive systems. Additionally, we are not completely carniverous (I apologize if I made it appear that we were). We are omiverous--our digestive systems are capable of processing nutrients from both meat and vegetable origins. Additionally, eating a pure vegan diet is not necessarilly healthier for all people. While it can be argued that less meat and more fruits and vegetables in the average, urban dweller would be better given our sedentary life, there are still people who require the life-giving sustanence provided by meat.
LionSpirit wrote:
Second, you mention interpretations - I have already discussed this point in my original post.
Yes, you did. And as you can see in my reply above, you'll probably notice that I made a point of recognizing the differences between those who gather their interpretations from a book and those who gather their interpretations from Nature.
LionSpirit wrote:
Thirdly, if I eat a human who has been killed so that I may eat that human, does saying "thanks" then make it O.K.- better than not causing their death? Because that's what you seem to be suggesting - that it doesn't matter what we do as long as we say thanks after we've done it.
Since you mention canabilism, I would like to turn your attention to the past--oh, the last few hundred years--when it was common practice in many aboriginal societies to "partake" of enemies to gain their powers or to drink the ashes of a deceased loved one (still practiced in certain South American and African tribes) to keep a part of them living.
My personal view of canablism is that it is not a practice I personally agree with. However, to each his own.
LionSpirit wrote:
And as I'm sure you know, animals don't "give their lives" - they are cruelly tortured and killed before they end up on a humans' plate.
While I disagree with the way that food animals are treated and slaughtered, I do also understand that their mistreatment is directly linked to our industrialized civilization. I have and will continue to support the ethical treatment of food animals, pets, human prisoners.
LionSpirit wrote:
Fourthly, I didn't "declare" anything, I asked questions. And why must animals be second class if everybody is a vegan - there's no logic in that at all.
My apologies, the way I read the original statement gave the appearance that it was along the same lines of the rhetoric that's spouted by PETA.
LionSpirit wrote:
Even if there was, would you prefer to be a second class citizen yet treated farily well, or have massive members of your species killed so that another species who had no actualy NEED to eat meat could eat your species?

“Totus viae ad deam”

Since: Aug 07

Salt Lake City

#11 Sep 18, 2007
Two replies to this: If you'd ever lived your life as a second class citizen, you probably wouldn't have opened up this can of worms, so I'll let it slide. As for the NEED to eat meat, please refer to my previous reply above.
LionSpirit wrote:
And yes, the Rede was a recent invention - but so was Wicca and the Rede is the most widely-quoted source when Wiccans are accused of practicing black magic, devil woship, etc, to show that we do not harm. In addition, though the rede may be recent, it is actually a version of the Witches Rune, which has been around for centuries (and is presumably the reason why, according to statistics from the U.S., around half of Pagans are vegetarians or vegans (as I'm sure you know, there are many Pagans who are not Wiccans and who are from a long line of Pagans).[QUOTE]
I assume, then, that you never read anything about the life of Doreen Valiente. Her family, I'm sure, still has the original copy of the Witches' Rune. That is, if we're thinking about the same piece of literature (Darksome night and shining moon, etc.) If not, I'd be highly interested in obtaining a copy of this older Witches' Rune.
With regards to Wiccans using the Rede as the most quoted source when accused of devil worship, etc., I've only rarely seen that happen. Most replies to such accusations have been met with the logical responses to each particular query. For instance, a Wiccan really can't be a Satanist if they're not Christian. They can't practice black magic because there is no black magic--magic, like any tool, can be used to harm or to heal, etc.
As for the statistics--I've not seen them, so I can't comment on that with any weight.
[QUOTE who="LionSpirit"]You also talk about the Law of Karma in its various names - yes indeed, it's not a rule, it's a thing that happens. So shouldn't that be all the more reason to NOT unnecessarily contribute to the suffering of others?
You're absolutely right! It does indeed mean we should not unnecessarily contribute to the suffering of others. Additionally, since this entire discussion has revolved around the Rede, I'd like to bring your attention to a slightly different version:
"Lest in self defense it be, ever mind the Law of three..." Rather than "What thee sends out comes back to thee, so ever mind the Law of three..."
Now, that doesn't excuse "unethical" behavior, but rather gives a different perspective on how the Rede is read by varying traditions.
LionSpirit wrote:
And sorry but your comment at the end about nature seems kind of irrelevant - what does it have to do with my questions about the Wiccan Rede?[QUOTE]
I'm sorry that you feel that way.
[QUOTE who="LionSpirit"]And one more thing - to me, it doesn't seem like much recognition of a spiritual being's value to slaughter and eat that being - whether it's a human or any other being.
It's true, anthropomorphising an animal does make our consumption of said animal's spiritual value less. But, how many times have you actually given thanks for the food on your plate? I recognize the inherant spiritual value in all of creation--the gods walk among us--but I also am quite certain that, would a bear kill me and feed me to it's cubs, my spiritual existence would be uplifted in exhaultation(sp?) for my sacrifice.
I apologize if the points I raised appeared prejudicial or confrontational; they were not meant to be. I seem to have inadvertently irritated you by the tone of your reply.

“Totus viae ad deam”

Since: Aug 07

Salt Lake City

#12 Sep 18, 2007
Ah crap, I screwed up the html tags...and I was doing so well lol!
LionSpirit

Salford, UK

#13 Sep 18, 2007
The Gnome wrote:
<quoted text>
But we do have hands and tool use ability to make up for that. Many chimpanzees eat flesh too and their teeth is more like ours than that of a canine or feline.
<quoted text>
As tool users we can prepare our food hence making it easier to digest.
Now are you questioning the Rede as a set of rule/guidelines or trying to convince use of the health benefits of vegetarianism?
I'm going to read the rest of the comments later (have to log off soon) but I just wanna quickly answer your question. I believe what people do is their choice, simple as. BUT Muslims refrain from eating animals that have not been prepared a certain way because their religion forbids it. Jews can not mix meat and milk (I believe) because their religion forbids it. So if a religion forbids harming others, then what's the point of being part of that religion, if, as seems to be the case with the majority of Wiccans, you are going to blatantly ignore it when it suits you because you happen to like the taste of meat?
LionSpirit

Salford, UK

#14 Sep 18, 2007
Hello wrote:
Pot calling the Kettle black.
Life force is also in plants. Plants bleed, scab over and heal. Get sick, wither and die. They bread, they eat, they reproduce, they die. They also move. As the sun moves, the plant will sway towards it's light.
Might as well come down off your high horse. IT's not as perfect as you think up there. Being vegan for the reasons your implying, isn't any better then not being a vegan. It's even worse. Cause your denying that the plants died so that you might live. You are denying what they did for you.
Nothing wrong with being vegan. But it doesn't give one a moral high ground.
Just noticed this. First off, please try not to make assumptions. I asked questions, I didn't tell anyone how they should behave or what they should eat, I simply asked questions related to the Rede. Second, animals establish social relationships similar to the way humans do, if we prick them they bleed, and if we really hurt them they scream in pain that we can clearly hear - like humans. This is not the same for plants. And thirdly, I said I believed that the Rede should be followed as far as is reasonably and practically possible - obviously it's not reasonable nor practical to eat nothing, so one has to eat something: eating only a veg/plant/fruit based diet means avoiding taking part in suffering as far as reasonably and practically possible.

Just because someone has different views does not mean they are on their "high horse" nor does you saying so in order to somehow "win" something you perhaps perceive to be a "debate" (it was questions as I stated).
Renee

United States

#15 Sep 18, 2007
LionSpirit wrote:
Just because someone has different views does not mean they are on their "high horse" nor does you saying so in order to somehow "win" something you perhaps perceive to be a "debate" (it was questions as I stated).
...however your tone was rather accusatory of those that do eat meat, your phrasing here does indicate to me a certain feeling of superiority on your part- you may not intend this, but it is how it comes across:

"The reason I ask, is that many Wiccans are not vegan, not even vegetarian, so are contributing in some way to animal suffering when they don't need to."

"And it seems to me that the majority of Wiccans blatantly ignore it and use excuses (such as the above) for doing so."

“Reality = Playdough”

Since: Aug 07

Merced, CA

#16 Sep 18, 2007
LionSpirit wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm going to read the rest of the comments later (have to log off soon) but I just wanna quickly answer your question. I believe what people do is their choice, simple as. BUT Muslims refrain from eating animals that have not been prepared a certain way because their religion forbids it. Jews can not mix meat and milk (I believe) because their religion forbids it. So if a religion forbids harming others, then what's the point of being part of that religion, if, as seems to be the case with the majority of Wiccans, you are going to blatantly ignore it when it suits you because you happen to like the taste of meat?
I don't see it as ignoring but personal interpretations of the Rede. I am not Harming myself or other people. further more I buy my meat form those who follow humane keeping and prepossessing practices and oppose those who do not. And lastly the Rede is as others have said is a suggestion not a rule or law. The other two religions was commanded by God not to do certain things we Wiccans are not so commanded. If there is a consequence to my eating of meat then I'll take the 3 fold like an adult and not blame others but only myself. Simple as that.

“Pagan Pirates Unite!”

Since: Jan 07

Monte Vista

#17 Sep 18, 2007
Lets be honest here!
Plants eat meat! From microbes to flies and great big bugs. They also eat... poop. Trees grow roots into coffins and bodies of animals as does grass and other plant forms. They root into sewers to get the nutrition of waste from the nutrient rich water. Potassium, sodium, ammonia. and microbial phosphates. Nitrites, Iron, nitrogen phosphates, all of the stuff our bodies are made of including calcium.
Life is a circle of events. We eat plants and animals and they eat us. So even Vegans eat meat by proxy.

Wiccans that eat meat do so because it comes natural. So do bears. Omnivors eat both and to a large extent eat primarily plant life but fish rabbits deer elk and pigs get eaten too. The only unnatural act would be an exclusive diet. Like only eating meat or only eating grain.

The Rede does not say "Do as you will, don't eat meat" Nor does it say "Do as you will, don't eat Barley"

"Harm none" Plucking plants kills them. Baking an apple is dooming the fruit. Or is it?
" All beasts of the herd and fruits of the trees are yours to eat. Pay homage to those in which you partake and give none to spoil" So said the Elden.

"The tree will give freely of it's fruit so that none may starve." This is for birds and worms too.
And finally:

" Grow grain and fruit, raise herds and flocks so that all may be fed well in the tribe. Honor the farmer that feeds you and honor the herder that shares his bounty but above all honor the beast that fills your plate and the fruit that does feed you both. Remember as you eat to fill the body you must also discover to fill the soul and love to fill the spirit. All three must be fed."

“Memento Mori”

Since: Jul 07

Shelby

#18 Sep 20, 2007
in my own opinion. Humans are as much a part of nature as anything else. We're apart of the foodchain. Most of the time..ontop. and sometimes..we end up as food for some of the smarter animals..or it could be the fact it was a "stupid" human that was eaten..that's beside the point.

We're naturally hunter-gatherers. What's unnatural is the fact that we turned from hunter-gatherer..to an agrarian society. This gave us humans an unfair advantage..and caused us to multiply.

Now..yes..vegeterianism or w/e is a bit healthier. But if we didn't prey upon animals and use their bodies for feed, and the leftovers for other things..then they'd be over populated.

Disease, cancer, and stupidity, are nature's way of gettign rid of us humans.

If i were out in the "sticks" instead of living in the community i do..I'd practice hunting regularly and set me up a shelter from the stuff aroudn me. now.

Mr. Veggie man...for a lack of a better term. What would happen if humans would lal eat veggies?. and that was the onyl thing we'd eat. personally I'd lose weight..but yeah. What would happen is this : Under population of plants, being preadted on by humans. then..overpopulation of herbivores. then they'd die off because of lack of grazing material [plants].

I personally would start getting my butcher knife ready. Cuz if all the animals die..you vegns are next :P [j/k]

We predate on animals to keep their numbers low..but somewhere alogn the line..that went all out of whack..adn humans got away from nature. Soeone got lazy..and lsot the thrill of thehunt..and the thruill of skinning, cleaning and cooking somethin you fought to provide for your family. I went through a rite of passage with one of my tribesmen.[I'm cherokee].
I had to kill a deer. I could have used a bow, a rifle..but I chose my obsidian knife. It's how my ancestors fought and caught their dinner. I sold the bones to the local artisans. they made a few knives, and beads fro mthe smaller bones. The pelt, was made into traditional clothing. the meat was taken and used to feed people. and the innards..well I had to eat the heart...unfortunately I didn't know we coudl cook it first..but hey..that's what I get for jumping to conclusions. The liver and kidneys were used to make medicine. What for..I was afraid toask. The intestines were used to make fibers for the bow strings..and etc. In short..we used everypart of that animal.
Hello

Fort Myers, FL

#19 Sep 20, 2007
LionSpirit wrote:
<quoted text>
Just noticed this. First off, please try not to make assumptions. I asked questions, I didn't tell anyone how they should behave or what they should eat, I simply asked questions related to the Rede. Second, animals establish social relationships similar to the way humans do, if we prick them they bleed, and if we really hurt them they scream in pain that we can clearly hear - like humans. This is not the same for plants.
It IS the same with plants. Which is why I said "pot calling the kettle black".
LionSpirit wrote:
<quoted text>And thirdly, I said I believed that the Rede should be followed as far as is reasonably and practically possible - obviously it's not reasonable nor practical to eat nothing, so one has to eat something: eating only a veg/plant/fruit based diet means avoiding taking part in suffering as far as reasonably and practically possible.
As it has been pointed out to you, plants do bleed. They DO feel. And as YOU pointed out, it's not practical to eat nothing.
LionSpirit wrote:
<quoted text>Just because someone has different views does not mean they are on their "high horse" nor does you saying so in order to somehow "win" something you perhaps perceive to be a "debate" (it was questions as I stated).
It does, if the beliefs are the same, but yet you don't SEE it's the same. Your high horse is your belief that YOU cause no harm, because your vegen. While those who eat meat, cause harm. Which in your mind makes vegans 'better'. This is the impression I'm getting from what your saying. But since plants also bleed, feel, etc.. Your on the same horse as everyone else. ;)

Pot calling the Kettle black. Just as I was saying.
Hello

Fort Myers, FL

#20 Sep 20, 2007
LionSpirit,
I just finished re-reading your first post on this thread. I'm not going to waste space by re-posting it, to comment on it.

This isn't a question. It's a statement of belief and why you think someone should belief it based upon the persons religus belief or creed. And why you think they are wrong if they don't belief as you do about their belief.

It's an attack. Not an honest question. Not honestly seeking answers as to why.

You state as fact, that eating meat is causing suffering. And base your whole comments based upon that assumption. And complain that you can't understand why others don't read the rede as you do, because of your assumptions that onlly as a vegan, would they not cause suffering. And only by being a vegan could they only truly follow the rede.

And yet, you wonder why you bring up this matter to other wiccians, you get the response you do? Your agruement isn't about the rede. It's about eating meat. It's about YOUR interpitation, not others. YOur interpitation of who and who can not suffer in this matter. You show your blindness to all that is around you, right off the bat.

You have brought this up here, and it has plainly been spelled (no pun inteneded) out for you that plants also bleed and feel.

Eating both meat and plants causes suffering.

That is your answer.

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