Back In The Broom Closet

Aug 20, 2012 Full story: Anders Jacobsen's blog 32

But, unintended consequences, y'know. This affects pagans. Take Foinah Jameson , a practicing Pagan who lives in Portland, Oregon, who makes and sells Rune sets .

Full Story
First Prev
of 2
Next Last

“I will not go quietly.”

Since: Feb 07

Indianapolis Indiana

#21 Aug 22, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Which can be true but still does not make holy water a potion. "Holy water" and "potion" are neither synonyms or interchangeable. They are different fluids with different purposes and are utilized differently.
Not only is a potion two or more liquids, the purpose is to ingest it. The word itself comes from the Greek poton "to drink". But that's beside the point as the discussion implies "holy water" as most commonly understood in the US. So while other practices might have different processes for sanctified water, the discussion is about holy water as understood per Catholicism in the US, the most commonly sold, thus my point of holy water being water alone.
Holy water is not created with the purpose of being ingested, is not typically consumed. A potion is ingested as medicine or to cause harm. Clearly, holy water if it were consumed, would not be consumed as "medicine" but for "miraculous" properties and not likely ever given to be ingest for the purpose to harm. Potions are specifically most commonly ingested, holy water is commonly applied externally via asperging and anointing, sometimes dipping. The two liquids are simply not the same thing.
Holy water is also unlike a potion as it requires being sanctified, a potion does not; nor does a blessing change water's composition to make it into a potion. And the argument was made that a blessing allegedly makes holy water a potion.
From some things I have read, some Perfumes or other such liquids which are not meant to be ingested are considered "potions" as well as the fact that many "potions" also require one to "energize" them which would be very similar(little difference in my mind) to sanctification.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#22 Aug 23, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Which can be true but still does not make holy water a potion. "Holy water" and "potion" are neither synonyms or interchangeable. They are different fluids with different purposes and are utilized differently.
Not only is a potion two or more liquids, the purpose is to ingest it. The word itself comes from the Greek poton "to drink". But that's beside the point as the discussion implies "holy water" as most commonly understood in the US. So while other practices might have different processes for sanctified water, the discussion is about holy water as understood per Catholicism in the US, the most commonly sold, thus my point of holy water being water alone.
Holy water is not created with the purpose of being ingested, is not typically consumed. A potion is ingested as medicine or to cause harm. Clearly, holy water if it were consumed, would not be consumed as "medicine" but for "miraculous" properties and not likely ever given to be ingest for the purpose to harm. Potions are specifically most commonly ingested, holy water is commonly applied externally via asperging and anointing, sometimes dipping. The two liquids are simply not the same thing.
Holy water is also unlike a potion as it requires being sanctified, a potion does not; nor does a blessing change water's composition to make it into a potion. And the argument was made that a blessing allegedly makes holy water a potion.
Actually that's not correct. Not all potions are made to ingest. Some are made to wear as a perfume, and some are made to sprinkle in areas where a certain outcome is intended. Pagans and Wiccans also use what you call "Holy" water, we call it "Blessing" Water, we charge it with "Blessing" Energy, or as you like to call it: "Sanctify" it. And you can charge it with one or more different types of energy, which in my opinion, makes it a potion

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#23 Aug 23, 2012
Pagan and Proud wrote:
<quoted text>From some things I have read, some Perfumes or other such liquids which are not meant to be ingested are considered "potions" as well as the fact that many "potions" also require one to "energize" them which would be very similar(little difference in my mind) to sanctification.
Perhaps I'm misreading the discussion, so bear with me... Are we talking about various colloquial uses of words, which may or may not be accurate or are we discussing, specifically, witchcraft and paganism, and how and what terms are most commonly applied in those fields? I can use "potion" as a colorful means of describing something mundane like mulled wine, which doesn't mean it's on par with how "potion" with alchemy or that it has somehow become a magick liquid because I used the word "potion."

The original assertion is that blessing makes holy water a potion. It doesn't. Blessings are neither primary or mandatory in the making of potions. Whereas it is essential to holy water. Potions can be used for healing or harming, holy water is not. Potions consist of liquids which are typically other than water for their respective properties and associations, whereas holy water is about being, specifically, water that has been sanctified.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#24 Aug 23, 2012
Pagan Priestess wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually that's not correct. Not all potions are made to ingest. Some are made to wear as a perfume, and some are made to sprinkle in areas where a certain outcome is intended. Pagans and Wiccans also use what you call "Holy" water, we call it "Blessing" Water, we charge it with "Blessing" Energy, or as you like to call it: "Sanctify" it. And you can charge it with one or more different types of energy, which in my opinion, makes it a potion
Actually, I'm correct. Ingest implies consuming, which is not just by the digestive tract. A potion can enter one's system either by drinking it, if you prefer, topically.

Potions and holy water are simply not the same category of liquid.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#25 Aug 23, 2012
<<A potion can enter one's system either by drinking it, if you prefer, topically.>>

That should read "OR if you prefer"

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#26 Aug 23, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, I'm correct. Ingest implies consuming, which is not just by the digestive tract. A potion can enter one's system either by drinking it, if you prefer, topically.
Potions and holy water are simply not the same category of liquid.
When referring to ingestion, yes it means to either swallow, or absorb, but potions don't necessarily have to be used on oneself, you can use it on various places or things as well.

“I will not go quietly.”

Since: Feb 07

Indianapolis Indiana

#27 Aug 23, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
The original assertion is that blessing makes holy water a potion. It doesn't. Blessings are neither primary or mandatory in the making of potions. Whereas it is essential to holy water. Potions can be used for healing or harming, holy water is not. Potions consist of liquids which are typically other than water for their respective properties and associations, whereas holy water is about being, specifically, water that has been sanctified.
By your argument "Holy Water"(which may or may not contain things other than merely purified water, as stated earlier) would be a Subset category of Potion. Holy water has been used by some as an aid to healing, it also harms that which is unholy(exorcisms). Blessings are part of making SOME potions, not all, and many liquids used in a potion do have a base in water. While blessing ALONE may not make "Holy Water" a potion, the variations by which some Holy Water is concocted would indeed make it a Potion. The Correct Argument, taking in ALL the Variables would be that Not ALL Holy Water are Potions, specifically those which rely only on a Blessing to sanctify the water.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#28 Aug 23, 2012
Pagan Priestess wrote:
<quoted text>
When referring to ingestion, yes it means to either swallow, or absorb, but potions don't necessarily have to be used on oneself, you can use it on various places or things as well.
Ingest means to internalize, does it not? You swallow something, where does it go? Inside the body. If something is absorbed through the skin or eyes or orifices, where does it go? Inside the body. That's why hazmat suits cover the entire body, not just one portion of the body. Quite literally potions are meant to be drank, thus the origin of the name.

Potions are commonly used for inside the body, listing other secondary possibilities doesn't change that basic primary purpose. Citing variations only emphasizes the distinction between potions and holy water. They're not synonymous and holy water isn't a type of potion. Potions are elixirs and concoctions through out the history of medicine and magick.

I also cannot think of a practice that has its version of sanctified (holy) water that classifies it as a potion, the latter often associated with magicians and (historical) witches rather than clergy. The ones that come to mind for me do not. Not the Catholics, or the Anglicans, Lutherans or Methodists, or Hindus; not the ancient Greeks (or today's Recons), nor (Trad) Wiccans. I don't recall seeing holy water associated with or classified in books on ancient medicine or ceremonial magic or alchemy. But if there is scholarly material you can point me to that shows otherwise, that would be great!:)

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#29 Aug 23, 2012
Pagan and Proud wrote:
<quoted text>By your argument "Holy Water"(which may or may not contain things other than merely purified water, as stated earlier) would be a Subset category of Potion. Holy water has been used by some as an aid to healing, it also harms that which is unholy(exorcisms). Blessings are part of making SOME potions, not all, and many liquids used in a potion do have a base in water. While blessing ALONE may not make "Holy Water" a potion, the variations by which some Holy Water is concocted would indeed make it a Potion. The Correct Argument, taking in ALL the Variables would be that Not ALL Holy Water are Potions, specifically those which rely only on a Blessing to sanctify the water.
That's not what my argument states at all. And "harm" is not typically associated with exorcism, rather the purpose is to banish. Blessings can, as you say, be a part of potions. Holy water, no matter who makes it or what they call it always requires blessings. Also when something is added to the water, it's typically for added (spiritual) purification, such as salt or fire. Potions are concoctions and elixirs, they are at least two, if not more, substances that have completely different attributes that are brought together for the given purpose.

It's incorrect to classify holy water as potions. However, I'm always open to learning something new and as I mentioned in the post above, I am receptive to any scholarly material others might be able to recommend.

“I will not go quietly.”

Since: Feb 07

Indianapolis Indiana

#30 Aug 23, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ingest means to internalize, does it not? You swallow something, where does it go? Inside the body. If something is absorbed through the skin or eyes or orifices, where does it go? Inside the body. That's why hazmat suits cover the entire body, not just one portion of the body. Quite literally potions are meant to be drank, thus the origin of the name.
No, Ingest means to eat or drink, nothing else.

“I will not go quietly.”

Since: Feb 07

Indianapolis Indiana

#31 Aug 23, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not what my argument states at all. And "harm" is not typically associated with exorcism, rather the purpose is to banish.
No actually it is used to Provoke in the beginning as it is Painful to an invading "dark" spirit. the rest of the Rite is used to "banish".
Callisto_ wrote:
Blessings can, as you say, be a part of potions. Holy water, no matter who makes it or what they call it always requires blessings.
As do an Number of different potions.
Callisto_ wrote:
Also when something is added to the water, it's typically for added (spiritual) purification, such as salt or fire.
And numerous things are added to Potions as well which are for "purification".
Callisto_ wrote:
Potions are concoctions and elixirs, they are at least two, if not more, substances that have completely different attributes that are brought together for the given purpose.
It's incorrect to classify holy water as potions. However, I'm always open to learning something new and as I mentioned in the post above, I am receptive to any scholarly material others might be able to recommend.
No, it's not incorrect to include Holy Water as a specific type of Potion. I'm simply not going to argue with you any more about it. The scholarly material is out there, Google works. I have no time for attempting to educate someone who can just as easily educate themselves should they wish to learn.
Jumper

Owensboro, KY

#32 Aug 25, 2012
"Somtimes the best way to act as if you know nothing is to tell the other fellow the same."

-Zombie Mark Twain

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 2
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Pagan/Wiccan Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Who Is Allah? (Aug '07) 1 hr fred 203,308
Bloomfield woman behind Ten Commandments monume... Oct 10 Liam R 3
Wiccan Arrested on Child Rape Charges (Apr '10) Oct 9 Lee County NC 46
I...(gulp) am a Pagan Agnostic Taoist Sep 28 Ol Fuddy Duddy 2
Respecting belief: why should you? And why shou... Sep 21 thetruth 21
Pagan caught performing naked ritual with teena... (Nov '12) Sep '14 Kathwynn 14
Who exactly was Gjoub, and should I trust him? (Mar '09) Sep '14 Kathwynn 503

Pagan/Wiccan People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE