Back In The Broom Closet

Aug 20, 2012 Full story: Anders Jacobsen's blog 32

But, unintended consequences, y'know. This affects pagans. Take Foinah Jameson , a practicing Pagan who lives in Portland, Oregon, who makes and sells Rune sets .

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sam

Arnold, MO

#1 Aug 20, 2012
Proof of Ebay DISCRIMINTATON agains non Christains religions.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#2 Aug 21, 2012
I personally think if they're going to do that, then they need to ban the sale of ALL religious related items. Unfortunately since they're a private company, they have the right to decide what they sell, and what they don't. They have the right to be hypocrites.

“I will not go quietly.”

Since: Feb 07

Indianapolis Indiana

#3 Aug 21, 2012
Pagan Priestess wrote:
I personally think if they're going to do that, then they need to ban the sale of ALL religious related items. Unfortunately since they're a private company, they have the right to decide what they sell, and what they don't. They have the right to be hypocrites.
Um, not really. Religious Discrimination isn't legal. I do foresee a Court Battle in this one.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#4 Aug 21, 2012
Pagan and Proud wrote:
<quoted text>Um, not really. Religious Discrimination isn't legal. I do foresee a Court Battle in this one.
Touché

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#5 Aug 21, 2012
This blog is another example of someone (over) reacting rather than thinking and acting. What the writer alleges the rep said "verbatim" and what may have actually been said is hearsay, the writer's version of what was said. We also don't know what he said verbatim, prompting the response of the rep.

It only looks discriminatory because the majority of the scam auctions are by people alleging to be pagan or witch. So no, there can't be bias if most of the rip offs are coming from people claiming to be of the same category. If most were Christians, then the hysterics would be reactionary Christians claiming anti-Christian bigotry.

However, what IS verifiable is what has actually been stated first hand by eBay officially and in writing. Truly verbatim, copy & pasted from eBay's website: "The following items are also being added to the prohibited items list: advice; spells; curses; hexing; conjuring; magic; prayers; blessing services; magic potions; healing sessions"

I.e.., the ban is against INTANGIBLE claims and "services". E.g., tarot *readings* are banned, no tarot *decks*. People claiming to cast spells, blessings, prayers for you are banned. Books with spells are not banned because the seller is auctioning the book, not its contents. The book is TANGIBLE (i.e., the buyer will receive it and be in possession, it's delivery tracked by a courier) and is in a certain condition. Sellers don't make claims or guarantees regarding the *contents* of books. You sell a cook book without making any guarantees that the recipes are tasty or that the buyer will successfully execute the recipes. Likewise, you sell a spell book without making any claims that the spells are viable or that the buyer will sucessfully execute the spells.

Pagans need to stop automatically assuming every little thing is fueled by bigotry. It's the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome. If folks keep screaming "Discrimination!!!" at every little thing when most of the time it's not, then no one will listen when it really does happen.

“I will not go quietly.”

Since: Feb 07

Indianapolis Indiana

#6 Aug 21, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
This blog is another example of someone (over) reacting rather than thinking and acting. What the writer alleges the rep said "verbatim" and what may have actually been said is hearsay, the writer's version of what was said. We also don't know what he said verbatim, prompting the response of the rep.
It only looks discriminatory because the majority of the scam auctions are by people alleging to be pagan or witch. So no, there can't be bias if most of the rip offs are coming from people claiming to be of the same category. If most were Christians, then the hysterics would be reactionary Christians claiming anti-Christian bigotry.
However, what IS verifiable is what has actually been stated first hand by eBay officially and in writing. Truly verbatim, copy & pasted from eBay's website: "The following items are also being added to the prohibited items list: advice; spells; curses; hexing; conjuring; magic; prayers; blessing services; magic potions; healing sessions"
I.e.., the ban is against INTANGIBLE claims and "services". E.g., tarot *readings* are banned, no tarot *decks*. People claiming to cast spells, blessings, prayers for you are banned. Books with spells are not banned because the seller is auctioning the book, not its contents. The book is TANGIBLE (i.e., the buyer will receive it and be in possession, it's delivery tracked by a courier) and is in a certain condition. Sellers don't make claims or guarantees regarding the *contents* of books. You sell a cook book without making any guarantees that the recipes are tasty or that the buyer will successfully execute the recipes. Likewise, you sell a spell book without making any claims that the spells are viable or that the buyer will sucessfully execute the spells.
Pagans need to stop automatically assuming every little thing is fueled by bigotry. It's the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome. If folks keep screaming "Discrimination!!!" at every little thing when most of the time it's not, then no one will listen when it really does happen.
While I understand your point, I have serious questions on to exactly how it would actually be enforced. I suppose we will have to wait and see if crystals, tarot cards, cauldrons, and other such things are removed.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#7 Aug 21, 2012
Pagan and Proud wrote:
<quoted text>While I understand your point, I have serious questions on to exactly how it would actually be enforced. I suppose we will have to wait and see if crystals, tarot cards, cauldrons, and other such things are removed.
I'm not seeing where people are getting the impression that items are being banned. What specific part of eBay's actual statement is giving people this impression?

“I will not go quietly.”

Since: Feb 07

Indianapolis Indiana

#8 Aug 21, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not seeing where people are getting the impression that items are being banned. What specific part of eBay's actual statement is giving people this impression?
Well, I'D say from the other article, the quote that says "eBay spokeswoman Johnna Hoff has cleared this matter up, however, explaining that “items that have a tangible value for the item itself and may also be used in metaphysical rites and practices (for instance, jewellery, crystals, incense, candles, and books) are allowed in most cases”.
The Interesting comment is "In Most Cases" leaving them wiggle room to ditch things simply because they don't LIKE them.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#9 Aug 21, 2012
So my question is: Are they going to ban items that other religions like to call "holy water"? Holy Water is used by Catholics and many variations of for baptisms, blessings, dispelling evil, and cleansing...sounds like a potion to me, so if potions is one of the items being banned...doesn't that fall right in?

“Dance with Fire- Boycott BS”

Since: Apr 07

Moon

#10 Aug 21, 2012
Yes, same post from similar thread. Meant to put it here originally...


When it comes down to it, I think that e-bay is pretty much like all major corporations, driven by profit. I don't think there is any intention to deliberately put all their Pagan sellers out of business or otherwise chase them away from using their services.

When maximizing profit, a company must also consider it's Goodwill. This is literally an asset that can go on the books in some circumstances, and also impacts a buyer's willingness to use their website to find and purchase items, none the less. They also profit from sellers who use thier website to sell their goods.

In the case of intangible services, I can definetely see their point. Especially as some of these have taken a hard dive into blatently unethical offers to break them up, make them your sex slave, and return your former lover to your prison, er, bed. If someone were offering their services to do these things tangibly, i.e. by force, well, we'd call that person a thug and a criminal.

But it's also because it's pretty impossible to mediate buyer/seller complaints and relations to any intangible offer like that. I mean, IRL if you need counseling and you go to a counselor, and even if they sucked or couldn't help you, you can't argue that they didn't sit down and interact with you for an hour in their office at the least.

I think since there is a window of time, I know if I were a seller I would not immediately bail before things were settled. I would work with the company and let them know my concerns, let them know that while it makes sense to cut off the rotten branch, that they would be wise not to uproot the whole tree. Then see how it plays out in the first month or so before issuing a call to arms (or abandonment) against them.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#11 Aug 22, 2012
Pagan and Proud wrote:
<quoted text>While I understand your point, I have serious questions on to exactly how it would actually be enforced. I suppose we will have to wait and see if crystals, tarot cards, cauldrons, and other such things are removed.
I still sees no reason to believe these objects will be banned. Pagans are not the only ones who use these items, and some of them are used in completely secular, commercial capacity - e.g., a cauldron is nothing more than a cast iron pot, crystals are used in decor, art, jewelry, clothing etc., tarot cards can be collectibles. So if they were ban that doesn't inherently imply religious bias but that there have been sufficient buyer-seller disputes regarding certain items that merit them being banned. What has been clearly stated is that the alleged spell casting and services, such as sellers promising to bless, curse, or cast (intangibles) are now banned. Though, I can see an object being banned if the seller claims it's haunted, or that it contains a spell he's cast upon it.

eBay is in the business of making money and if something is a money maker for them then it's not very likely they would cut into their own profit margin by removing it. The large volume of intangibles auctions indicate they do generate revenue. However eBay also has to handle disputes and when it comes to the intangible, more often than not, it's one party's word against the other as to whether the transaction was completed and satisfactory. Even if a seller is completely legit and the buyer is not, if there is no way to prove a service was given and what its results were, the seller would be forced to issue a refund. eBay takes a percentage on each sale so it makes money off of sellers, but it's the millions of customers that keep the money rolling in.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#12 Aug 22, 2012
Pagan Priestess wrote:
So my question is: Are they going to ban items that other religions like to call "holy water"? Holy Water is used by Catholics and many variations of for baptisms, blessings, dispelling evil, and cleansing...sounds like a potion to me, so if potions is one of the items being banned...doesn't that fall right in?
Christians are not the only ones who use holy water. So if there is any suspicion of religious bias it would be simple enough to test by selling another religion's version and seeing if they're both permitted or if one but not the other gets banned.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#13 Aug 22, 2012
Pagan Priestess wrote:
So my question is: Are they going to ban items that other religions like to call "holy water"? Holy Water is used by Catholics and many variations of for baptisms, blessings, dispelling evil, and cleansing...sounds like a potion to me, so if potions is one of the items being banned...doesn't that fall right in?
Clicked "post" too soon. Holy water is not a potion. A potion is a mixture of two or more different liquids. And Catholics aren't the only ones who use some version of it. Hell, the Greeks were using it thousands of years before Christianity was even thought of (and the source of "cleanliness is next to godliness").

"Metaphysical" doesn't pertain just to Pagan but to all spiritual/ritual items. One of the biggest customers of Azure Green/Abyss (one of the largest, if not the largest of metaphysical wholesalers) is the Catholic Church.

“I will not go quietly.”

Since: Feb 07

Indianapolis Indiana

#14 Aug 22, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
<quoted text>
I still sees no reason to believe these objects will be banned.
I do. I suppose we will have to wait and see,

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#15 Aug 22, 2012
Pagan and Proud wrote:
<quoted text>I do. I suppose we will have to wait and see,
Indeed, though I think there's far more fuss being made than the situation merits. Foremost, it's necessary to see _exactly_*why* an object was banned, e.g., was it an ordinary tarot deck or did the seller indicate he had cast a spell upon it or claimed a certain result and *that's* why it was banned.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#16 Aug 22, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Clicked "post" too soon. Holy water is not a potion. A potion is a mixture of two or more different liquids. And Catholics aren't the only ones who use some version of it. Hell, the Greeks were using it thousands of years before Christianity was even thought of (and the source of "cleanliness is next to godliness").
"Metaphysical" doesn't pertain just to Pagan but to all spiritual/ritual items. One of the biggest customers of Azure Green/Abyss (one of the largest, if not the largest of metaphysical wholesalers) is the Catholic Church.
Typically potions do have more then 1 ingredient, but Holy Water, or Blessing Water is considered a potion because you can charge it with protective and healing energy and use it.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#17 Aug 22, 2012
Pagan Priestess wrote:
<quoted text>
Typically potions do have more then 1 ingredient, but Holy Water, or Blessing Water is considered a potion because you can charge it with protective and healing energy and use it.
By definition a potion consists of more than one liquid, with the imbuing of with blessings not necessary but optional, per its purpose.

Holy water is purified water with no other substance, liquid or otherwise. Thus, not a potion. Adding a blessing does not make it a potion any more than blessing a crystal or salt would make them into potions. It's still a crystal, or salt, or water.:)

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#18 Aug 22, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
<quoted text>
By definition a potion consists of more than one liquid, with the imbuing of with blessings not necessary but optional, per its purpose.
Holy water is purified water with no other substance, liquid or otherwise. Thus, not a potion. Adding a blessing does not make it a potion any more than blessing a crystal or salt would make them into potions. It's still a crystal, or salt, or water.:)
actually it is defined as a liquid or liquid mixture

“I will not go quietly.”

Since: Feb 07

Indianapolis Indiana

#19 Aug 22, 2012
Callisto_ wrote:
<quoted text>
By definition a potion consists of more than one liquid, with the imbuing of with blessings not necessary but optional, per its purpose.
Holy water is purified water with no other substance, liquid or otherwise. Thus, not a potion. Adding a blessing does not make it a potion any more than blessing a crystal or salt would make them into potions. It's still a crystal, or salt, or water.:)
Actually what goes into Holy Water depends on the belief of who makes it. Some use salt, others use blessed oil, others will even go to the extreme(for special circumstances) of having dust or bone fragments from a "Saint" placed in it.

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#20 Aug 22, 2012
Pagan and Proud wrote:
<quoted text>Actually what goes into Holy Water depends on the belief of who makes it. Some use salt, others use blessed oil, others will even go to the extreme(for special circumstances) of having dust or bone fragments from a "Saint" placed in it.
Which can be true but still does not make holy water a potion. "Holy water" and "potion" are neither synonyms or interchangeable. They are different fluids with different purposes and are utilized differently.

Not only is a potion two or more liquids, the purpose is to ingest it. The word itself comes from the Greek poton "to drink". But that's beside the point as the discussion implies "holy water" as most commonly understood in the US. So while other practices might have different processes for sanctified water, the discussion is about holy water as understood per Catholicism in the US, the most commonly sold, thus my point of holy water being water alone.

Holy water is not created with the purpose of being ingested, is not typically consumed. A potion is ingested as medicine or to cause harm. Clearly, holy water if it were consumed, would not be consumed as "medicine" but for "miraculous" properties and not likely ever given to be ingest for the purpose to harm. Potions are specifically most commonly ingested, holy water is commonly applied externally via asperging and anointing, sometimes dipping. The two liquids are simply not the same thing.

Holy water is also unlike a potion as it requires being sanctified, a potion does not; nor does a blessing change water's composition to make it into a potion. And the argument was made that a blessing allegedly makes holy water a potion.

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