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Bruce

AOL

#84 Jun 26, 2011
Yon Said:

<< I believe this lawlessness to be the fundamental thing that is at the root of the differences - of all the Judeo/Christian problems - and that is the unwillingness to acknowledge the Biblical definition of sin that results in the plethora of sects and denominations and religions that men put together in an effort to justify themselves that range from extreme radical adherence to Torah keeping or to ignoring it all together. >>

I can agree that extreme positions either way is wrong. Those who believe that Jews should assimulate to the Church and forget Torah are extreme just like some "self-righteous" extremists on the other end who seem to believe they are made righteous by their level of Observance. Yes, we can all share our views in order to identify what we believe ins the problem. However, we all need to point the fingers at ourselves first, because ultimately, we are all sinners and hypocrites. Those who deny this, I believe, are living in denial as many pios religious leaders have throughout the ages. We ought to strive to be examples of our own inner convictions first as our testimony.

Bruce
yon

Hollywood, FL

#85 Jul 2, 2011
Hellenized x-tians, for the most part, have been taught that the law was abolished and that all that is required is faith.

From another forum-

"What was nailed to the cross? Is Paul teaching that the Law was nailed to the Cross here? In order to conclude this we would have to assume Paul was referring to the 10 commandments. I don't think it's safe to assume. For one thing, the word "law" is not used at all in the whole epistle. Not only that but the whole significance of the Law is absent!

Furthermore, the wiping out of the moral law would hardly provide Christians with the divine assurance of forgiveness which is the whole point. Guilt is not removed by destroying law codes. It would only leave mankind without moral principles.

However, when I look at the context, a few verses before, Paul is trying to combat the Colossian false teachers. The were "beguiling" (v. 4) Christians to believe that they needed to observe ascetic "regulations-dogmata " in order to obtain the protection of those cosmic beings who allegedly could help them to participate in the perfection of the divinity. To oppose this teaching, Paul emphasizes two truths. In Christ, and Him alone, "the whole fullness of the deity dwells bodily" and all other forms of authority are subordinate to Him, "who is the head of all rule and authority". Second, he reaffirms that it is only in and through Christ that the believer can "come to the fullness of life" (v.10), because Christ not only possesses the "fullness of deity", but also provides the fullness of "redemption" and "forgiveness of sins" (Col 1: 14;2:10-15; 3:1-5)

So what was nailed to the cross? The written document or cheirographon, apparently was a term (rabbinic and apocalyptic literature) used to denote either a "certificate of indebtedness" resulting from our transgressions or a "book containing the record of sin" used for the condemning those charged with transgression. This would make sense together with the term "middle" (Col 2:14). "The middle" was the position occupied at the center of the court or assembly by the accusing witness. In the context of Colossians, the accusing witness is the "record-book of sins" which God in Christ has erased and removed out of the court.

I know that there are popular interpretations of certain texts, however, do we want to follow what's popular or what's true?"

Since: Dec 09

Edmonton, Canada

#86 Jul 2, 2011
Bruce wrote:
Yon Said:
<< I believe this lawlessness to be the fundamental thing that is at the root of the differences - of all the Judeo/Christian problems - and that is the unwillingness to acknowledge the Biblical definition of sin that results in the plethora of sects and denominations and religions that men put together in an effort to justify themselves that range from extreme radical adherence to Torah keeping or to ignoring it all together. >>
I can agree that extreme positions either way is wrong. Those who believe that Jews should assimulate to the Church and forget Torah are extreme just like some "self-righteous" extremists on the other end who seem to believe they are made righteous by their level of Observance. Yes, we can all share our views in order to identify what we believe ins the problem. However, we all need to point the fingers at ourselves first, because ultimately, we are all sinners and hypocrites. Those who deny this, I believe, are living in denial as many pios religious leaders have throughout the ages. We ought to strive to be examples of our own inner convictions first as our testimony.
Bruce
I would add to this that Jews cannot abide Messianic Jews who are observant so I don't think lawlessness is the issue. I believe the issue is how do we gain G-d's favour (salvation). To the Jew he has to merit salvation, to the Messianic that favour comes through faith in the work of Messiah. Although our zeal for the law is important and is a marker to show we have been changed in our hearts, the level of observance is not the criteria for salvation. Faith is the criteria as it is said "the just shall live by faith."
yon

Hollywood, FL

#87 Jul 3, 2011
And then there are the Karaites - to wit:

The Ass Speaks Out

By Nehemia Gordon Wednesday February 24, 2010

Balaam's Ass

“Ass – a long-eared, slow, patient, sure-footed domesticated mammal, Equus asinus, related to the horse, used chiefly as a beast of burden.”( Dictionary.com )

"It’s been several months since the publication of my book A Prayer to Our Father, which I wrote together with Keith E. Johnson, a Christian pastor from North Carolina. This book explores the Hebrew origins of what is commonly known as the “Lord’s Prayer”. Many of my Jewish brothers and sisters have expressed great concern over the book. Some have even speculated that I have secretly converted to Christianity and am leading others into the Christian faith. Some of my Christian friends have joined in this speculation thinking that perhaps there is a “surprise ending” to the book in which I proclaim my faith in Jesus. On the flip side, some Messianics are spreading the false rumor that I allegedly hold secret meetings during my speaking tours in which I try to convince “believers” to abandon their faith. I hate to disappoint the rumormongers but none of these is true. I have not converted to Christianity nor do I attempt to convince anyone to change their faith. I suppose the reason for these false speculations is that some people have a hard time understanding why a Jew who does not believe in Jesus would write a book on his teachings unless he has a secret agenda. I thought I explained this rather well in my books but I guess not everyone reads my books. Or perhaps I am not as eloquent as I like to think. So I am writing this to try and set the record straight.

Let me start with my views on Jesus of Nazareth, or as he was known 2000 years ago,“Yeshua”. Over the past few years I have gained a great respect for his teachings, but I have not embraced the Christian faith nor have I become a “Messianic Jew.........”

http://www.aprayertoourfather.com/the-ass-spe...

Since: Dec 09

Edmonton, Canada

#88 Jul 4, 2011
yon wrote:
And then there are the Karaites - to wit:
The Ass Speaks Out
By Nehemia Gordon Wednesday February 24, 2010
Balaam's Ass
“Ass – a long-eared, slow, patient, sure-footed domesticated mammal, Equus asinus, related to the horse, used chiefly as a beast of burden.”( Dictionary.com )
"It’s been several months since the publication of my book A Prayer to Our Father, which I wrote together with Keith E. Johnson, a Christian pastor from North Carolina. This book explores the Hebrew origins of what is commonly known as the “Lord’s Prayer”. Many of my Jewish brothers and sisters have expressed great concern over the book. Some have even speculated that I have secretly converted to Christianity and am leading others into the Christian faith. Some of my Christian friends have joined in this speculation thinking that perhaps there is a “surprise ending” to the book in which I proclaim my faith in Jesus. On the flip side, some Messianics are spreading the false rumor that I allegedly hold secret meetings during my speaking tours in which I try to convince “believers” to abandon their faith. I hate to disappoint the rumormongers but none of these is true. I have not converted to Christianity nor do I attempt to convince anyone to change their faith. I suppose the reason for these false speculations is that some people have a hard time understanding why a Jew who does not believe in Jesus would write a book on his teachings unless he has a secret agenda. I thought I explained this rather well in my books but I guess not everyone reads my books. Or perhaps I am not as eloquent as I like to think. So I am writing this to try and set the record straight.
Let me start with my views on Jesus of Nazareth, or as he was known 2000 years ago,“Yeshua”. Over the past few years I have gained a great respect for his teachings, but I have not embraced the Christian faith nor have I become a “Messianic Jew.........”
http://www.aprayertoourfather.com/the-ass-spe...
That was a good article, too bad Nehemia isn't active in this forum. I would like to hear what he has to say.
mikki45

AOL

#89 Jul 4, 2011
It is indeed a great article and a wonderful point too. Many Jews have explored the life, outlook, etc of Yeshua but typically from a scholarly view. It tends to confuse those who are not Jews because, in their experience, to study the NT or anything about Yeshua implies belief. However a Jew continues to be a Jew no matter what the religious views of the individual and studying what is viewed in non-Messianic circles as "Christian Scripture" makes sense as part of the history of the Jewish people. Also it never hurts to have individuals from different religions share their views on a subject whether verbally or in writing.
Bruce

AOL

#90 Jul 5, 2011
I, too, just read this article directly from the Karaite Cornter website the other night. While of course as a Messianic Jew, I wish Nehemiah believed in Yeshua, nevertheless I give him a lot of credit for his convictions and guts to stand with his convictions despite the opposition and persecution of the attacks waged against him for this. And as a Jew period, it bothers me that there are some Jews-probably mostly Orthodox, who try to stifle free speech and use intimidation tactics, which were and may tragically be used against them again as well! I can never understand how Jews of all people, considering how these things were done to them, could act just like those who persecuted them. I say this with sadness in my heart as a Jew myself, and I know there are other Jews-both Messianic and non-Messianic, who also feel the same. We also need to pray for those Messianic Jews and Christians who are being persecuted in Isra'el for their faith, as well as for Isra'el as a whole.

Bruce
Bruce

AOL

#91 Jul 5, 2011
Brief correction to my above comments: Yes it was the fellow Kairites of Nehemia Gordon who are persecuting and attacking him for his work even though he is not an actual believer. In most cases though, I believe it is mostly the Orthodox who are persecuting Messianic Jews and Christians in Isra'el, as I have just read something more on that.

Bruce
messianic114

Olds, Canada

#92 Jul 5, 2011
Bruce wrote:
Brief correction to my above comments: Yes it was the fellow Kairites of Nehemia Gordon who are persecuting and attacking him for his work even though he is not an actual believer. In most cases though, I believe it is mostly the Orthodox who are persecuting Messianic Jews and Christians in Isra'el, as I have just read something more on that.
Bruce
It will be great to get more input on that as Ben_Masada claims this is untrue.
yon

Hollywood, FL

#93 Jul 5, 2011
Personally I am somewhere between Messianic Karaitism, and the the Hebrew Roots/Divine Name movements. Nehemia dances all around the issues and so is lambasted by all, but simply can't bring himself to put truth ahead of Jewish tradition - which makes Judaism, in my view almost a religion without Elohim, as his name they won't pronounce, his Messiah they reject and have all their man-made traditions that define/identify them as Jews. How much longer can this world go on with Jews in denial, x-tians in their Hellenized perversions and Muslimism threatening to take over the planet? It can't go on like this for much longer.
Bruce

AOL

#94 Jul 5, 2011
<< Personally I am somewhere between Messianic Karaitism, and the the Hebrew Roots/Divine Name movements.>>

Ultimately, the only "label" that really counts is the intention of your heart to truly love and seek G-d and His Will for you.

<< Nehemia dances all around the issues and so is lambasted by all, but simply can't bring himself to put truth ahead of Jewish tradition - which makes Judaism, in my view almost a religion without Elohim, as his name they won't pronounce, his Messiah they reject and have all their man-made traditions that define/identify them as Jews.>>

I don't think I would go as far as to say he "Dances around the issues" and puts Jewish tradition ahead of truth. Just because I may disagree with someone elses views on Theological matters doesn't make that person any less sincere than I am. Also, the Karaites aspire to put Truth ahead of tradition. This is what they emphasize, and in some cases, more so than many Messianics. He, as all of us, only have to answer to The Most High.

<< How much longer can this world go on with Jews in denial, x-tians in their Hellenized perversions and Muslimism threatening to take over the planet? It can't go on like this for much longer. >>

I think what you are sounding like here, and I think many of us are going through the same thing, is a kind of fustration in feeling the pressure of the horrendous age we are living in. We all better pray we can be strong enough to endure ultil either Yeshua comes first, or we are taken out of this world by His Father.

Bruce

Since: Dec 09

Edmonton, Canada

#95 Jul 5, 2011
Bruce wrote:
<< Personally I am somewhere between Messianic Karaitism, and the the Hebrew Roots/Divine Name movements.>>
Ultimately, the only "label" that really counts is the intention of your heart to truly love and seek G-d and His Will for you.
<< Nehemia dances all around the issues and so is lambasted by all, but simply can't bring himself to put truth ahead of Jewish tradition - which makes Judaism, in my view almost a religion without Elohim, as his name they won't pronounce, his Messiah they reject and have all their man-made traditions that define/identify them as Jews.>>
I don't think I would go as far as to say he "Dances around the issues" and puts Jewish tradition ahead of truth. Just because I may disagree with someone elses views on Theological matters doesn't make that person any less sincere than I am. Also, the Karaites aspire to put Truth ahead of tradition. This is what they emphasize, and in some cases, more so than many Messianics. He, as all of us, only have to answer to The Most High.
<< How much longer can this world go on with Jews in denial, x-tians in their Hellenized perversions and Muslimism threatening to take over the planet? It can't go on like this for much longer. >>
I think what you are sounding like here, and I think many of us are going through the same thing, is a kind of fustration in feeling the pressure of the horrendous age we are living in. We all better pray we can be strong enough to endure ultil either Yeshua comes first, or we are taken out of this world by His Father.
Bruce
Bruce I have to disagree with you about this. Certainly the intent of our heart is important, but the heart is deceiptfully wicked, who can know it. We might feel we are sincere when we aren't. In addition Messiah taught we must be born again, not sincerely seeking. We must find Him and be joined to Him to be included in the world to come.
Bruce

AOL

#96 Jul 6, 2011
<< Bruce I have to disagree with you about this. Certainly the intent of our heart is important, but the heart is deceiptfully wicked, who can know it.>>

I fully agree with you. Rather, I think we can say that anyone TRULY seeking G-d will find it. Here, we can warn even ourselves-you and I-, that we may think that we TRULY seek Him, and yet are deceiving ourselves. This can be the case with anyone-despite whatever "group" or "denominaton" they belong to. Yes, the heart is wicked, but do we even know ourselves as G-d knows us?

<< We might feel we are sincere when we aren't.>>

Yes, this is exactly what I meant above, and this can apply to any and all of us, despite what we claim to believe. I will give you an example: for many years, I thought I truly had faith and my heart was in it. Then came my life-threatening illness. If this didn't give me more of a barometer where I was, then it was me who missed that sign. The fear that came along made me realize I was not as successful as I thought I was, since fear is the opposite of faith. TRUE faith is more than a mere intellectual undertanding of The Scriptures in and of itself. And such a trial could happen to anyone of us and each person sees if they TRULY have faith. So people often THINK they are some place when they may not be.

<< In addition Messiah taught we must be born again, not sincerely seeking. We must find Him and be joined to Him to be included in the world to come. >>

I think we could say though, that those who TRULY seek Him will find Him. The question is are we TRULY seeking Him? Do we TRULY know ourselves?

Bruce
yon

Hollywood, FL

#97 Jul 6, 2011
Bruce wrote:
<<
I think what you are sounding like here, and I think many of us are going through the same thing, is a kind of fustration in feeling the pressure of the horrendous age we are living in. We all better pray we can be strong enough to endure ultil either Yeshua comes first, or we are taken out of this world by His Father. Bruce


I concur. Shalom Aleichem.
Bruce

AOL

#98 Jul 7, 2011
Shalom 'Aleichem to you, too.

Bruce
yon

Hollywood, FL

#99 Jul 7, 2011
I was recently banned from a forum that claimed to be of the "born again" x-tian variety, that simply could not tolerate the logic of YHWH's law being still valid, and that they were in rebellion by not being in compliance with the 10 Commandments. They also would not tolerate derogatory(aka - truthful) analysis of pervert and Islam agendas(which are virtually identical), claiming that such is hate speech.

Strange, how "politics makes for strange bedfellows."
Bruce

AOL

#100 Jul 7, 2011
YON: I was recently banned from a forum that claimed to be of the "born again" x-tian variety, that simply could not tolerate the logic of YHWH's law being still valid, and that they were in rebellion by not being in compliance with the 10 Commandments.

BRUCE: I don't understand. It sounds like this is an anti-missionary forum, since they claim to be Ex-Christians, right? Either this or now they are Messianic Jews and possibly trashing "Christianity" to distinguish themselves? If it is the first case I layed out here, then obviously, if they are not believers in Him, then nothing else they believe or don't believe really matters. Maybe you can clarify about them.

YON: They also would not tolerate derogatory(aka - truthful) analysis of pervert and Islam agendas(which are virtually identical), claiming that such is hate speech.

BRUCE: Since The Truth is Light, and all Truth comes from Hashem, then why don't they believe that The Truth can stand challenges to it?--As if HaShem had not already defended His Truths in Scripture.

YON: Strange, how "politics makes for strange bedfellows."

BRUCE: I have learned not to give more importance to groups and denominations than I ought to give them. Why should I do otherwise when we have The Holy Word of haShem? Look, there are countries int he world who would love to have even a single page of The Bible, like in places in China and Romania. Yet we have free access to all kinds of Bibles and related materials, even sophisticated Computer Bible programs, with access to many versions, commentaries, dictionaries, maps, etc, etc. In this sense, we are Blessed! And we are even more Blessed because we have direct access to Hashem Himself!

Bruce
yon

Marcus Hook, PA

#101 Sep 29, 2011
The term “pastors”, a translation anomaly?
Written by Loren on November 28, 2009

Please note that this article is a work in progress. There may be some additions, changes, corrections etc.

"I believe that English Bible translations over the past 4 plus centuries have done a significant disservice to the Protestant hurch’s`understanding of church polity by their translation of Ephesians 4:11. In all English translations since the Geneva Bible of 1599 (that I have perused), with the exception of the ESV and Young’s Literal Translation, the Greek word poim&#275;n in Ephesians 4:11 is translated “pastors”. The word poim&#275;n (&#960;&#959;&#953 ;&#956;&#941;&#957 ;/&#960;&#959;&#95 3;&#956;&#941;&#95 7;&#945;&#962;) simply means “shepherd(s)” and every other instance of it in the New Testament is so translated (with some minor variations – i.e. John 21:16). But English Bible translators, for some reason, reserved a special word for poim&#275;n in Ephesians 4:11, the word “pastor(s)”. Why?

Prior to the Geneva Bible, English translations used the word “shepherd” to translate poim&#275;n. This includes the Wycliffe Bible of 1395, the Tyndale Bible of 1525, the Myles Coverdale Bible of 1535 and the Bishops Bible of 1568 (see StudyLight). But for some reason the Geneva Bible translated the word “Pastours”(sic) and shortly thereafter so did the King James Version of 1611 as have most major Protestant translations since then.

The fairly comprehensive article in Wikipedia on the Translation of the King James bible makes this observation:

'The Authorized Version is notably more Latinate than previous English versions, especially the Geneva Bible. This results in part from the academic stylistic preferences of a number of the translators – several of whom admitted to being more comfortable writing in Latin than in English – but was also, in part, a consequence of the royal proscription against explanatory notes. Hence, where the Geneva Bible might use a common English word – and gloss its particular application in a marginal note; the Authorized Version tends rather to prefer a technical term, frequently in Anglicised Latin. Consequently, although the King had instructed the translators to use the Bishops’ Bible as a base text, the New Testament in particular, stylistically owes much to the Catholic Rheims New Testament, whose translators had also been concerned to find English equivalents for Latin terminology.'

That observation intrigues me. That helps me understand where terms such as “bishops”,“pastors” and “deacons” come from.

My contention is that if, over the past several centuries, this verse had been translated with the normal sense of the words (as the ESV does):

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,…(as per the ESV for Ephesians 4:11-12)

then as the church studied the verses below a number of things would have been clear:
In the Church there is no special/distinct office called “pastor”1`
Watch-care within the local church (under Christ) falls to specific men who are appointed by the Holy Spirit to be overseers. These overseers are called elders.`Elders have the`solemn`responsibility to shepherd God’s precious flock. These shepherds are a gift from Christ Himself to his Church.Included in the elders’ shepherding ministry is preaching and teaching.,,,,"MORE`http:/ /www.eldership.ca/archives/the -term-pastors-a-translation-an omaly/

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