Since: Feb 13

Los Angeles, CA

#1 Jul 20, 2013
PRODUCE THE BODY.

Dear Shibolet,

Did he or did he not? I am talking about the resurrection of Jesus. If he did not resurrect, would you be able to produce the body? If you are not able to explain what happened, how about giving yourself up?

David Mishkin - Los Angeles, CA USA.

Dear Mr.Mishkin,

No sir, he did not. If you get yourself together and then put together whatever you can from reading the NT about the resurrection of Jesus, you will see that he did not. Now I would like to bring to your attention some points about that tale. Tale! Yes sir, and the term is not mine. I am borrowing it from Jesus' own disciples who went even further by adding the adjective idle. Idle tale, they said.(Luke24:11) The women had reported the word of the "angel" that Jesus had resurrected. The disciples probably had never heard of such a thing. They had no choice but to discard the report as an idle tale. Now think. If those who lived daily with Jesus, listening daily to his words could not believe the report, how can we be expected to after 2000 years of listening to a tale that just won't get less idle?

When did the disciples ever change their minds about the idle tale of the resurrection? I wonder because years later when the Cause of the Nazarenes was booming, Paul appeared preaching that Jesus had resurrected and almost got killed in Jerusalem. Why if the Nazarenes were headquartered in Jerusalem and coexisting peacefully with mainstrem Judaism? Yes, but the resurrection of Jesus was not an item in their agenda. The whole thing had been made up by Paul. Yes, all according to his gospel as he himself revealed it to his disciple Timothy.(II Tim.2:8) Paul needed that tale to promote his Cause which turned out to be Christianity.

The resurrection of Jesus, if it must be accepted it has to be only and exclusively by faith because there is no evidence to substantiate the event. An empty tomb is no proof of resurrection and the refusal at the time to produce the body does not diminish from the fact that the body was indeed removed from there. And the guards can never be taken as evidence of anything whatsoever because they were set at the tomb area only late Saturday morning.(Mat.27:62-66) The disciple who removed Jesus' body from that tomb had the whole night of Friday all for himself to act without anydisturbance. If you don't mind discussing the issue further, I can even provide you with the name of the disciple who removed the body and found to be rather prudent not to produce it. And he did it because he had enough reasons to believe that by not doing it even during the hours of that Sabbath, Mary Magdalene would have done it herself as she declared she would.(John 20:15) So I wish the preachers of the resurrection would at least give Paul the credit that's due him.(II Tim.2:8)

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#2 Jul 20, 2013
Firstly how can one say that reading about the resurrection of Yeshua one would conclude that the resurrection didn't happen? If that was the intent of the author to say there wasn't a resurrection why would the author not say so? Why would he say just four verses later that Yeshua walked with them and talked with them? Why would he relate Yeshua showing the wounds of his crucifixtion to them? If the disciples truly thought that the report of the women was fantasy, why did they immediately run to the tomb? So the reason we believe in the resurrection is that people witnessed the risen Messiah. Since there is no evidence to contradict the testimony why shouldn't we believe it today?
.
A weakness in your argument is that you fail to appreciate that testimony, even depositions are evidence. Would you say that the Red Sea didn't divide and Israel didn't walk through just because we only have the Torah to say it happened? Additionally there is a chain of testimony through the ages as to the resurrection.
.
Another weakness in your argument is why would the religious leaders ask Pilate to seal the tomb if it was already empty? This seems hard to believe they didn't check first. Additionally you would have us believe they didn't check to see if the body was there when they posted the guard.
.
Conclusion: You expect me to disregard four written records that Yeshua rose from the dead as well as a chain of witnesses throughout the ages as well as my personal experience of receiving the Holy Spirit and believe your explanation of events which make no sense to me.

Since: Feb 13

Los Angeles, CA

#3 Jul 23, 2013
"MESSIANIC114"[quote ]Firstly how can one say that reading about the resurrection of Yeshua one would conclude that the resurrection didn't happen?[/quote]
.
First because Yeshua was a Jewish man and Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection. And second, the contradictions in the NT about Jesus' resurrection are just too many.
.
[quote]If that was the intent of the author to say there wasn't a resurrection why would the author not say so?[/quote]
.
Because the author was a Hellenist to whom resurrection was a fact.
.
[quote]Why would he say just four verses later that Yeshua walked with them and talked with them?[/quote]
.
Them whom the Apostles? Why didn't they ever preach about Jesus' resurrection?
.
[quote]Why would he relate Yeshua showing the wounds of his crucifixtion to them?[/quote]
.
The wounds of the crucifixion, not of the resurrection.
.
[quote]If the disciples truly thought that the report of the women was fantasy, why did they immediately run to the tomb?[/quote]
.
To give the women the benefit of the doubt. And they saw no proofs that Jesus had resurrected. An empty tomb is proof only that someone removed Jesus from there.
.
[quote]So the reason we believe in the resurrection is that people witnessed the risen Messiah.[/quote]
.
To see someone alive after his passion is not proof even that he died, let alone that he resurrected.(Acts 1:3)
.
[quote]Since there is no evidence to contradict the testimony why shouldn't we believe it today?[/quote]
.
There are plenty. You can't see them in the gospels because faith won't allow you to.
.
[quote]Would you say that the Red Sea didn't divide and Israel didn't walk through just because we only have the Torah to say it happened?[/quote]
.
It could have been metaphorical. Parting of the sea means escape from deep troubles.
.
[quote]Additionally there is a chain of testimony through the ages as to the resurrection.[/quote]
.
Testimonies based on Christian preconceived notions.
.
[quote]Another weakness in your argument is why would the religious leaders ask Pilate to seal the tomb if it was already empty?[/quote]
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I don't believe they did. Interpolation of pious forgery. Jews don't believe in bodily resurrection.
.
[quote]This seems hard to believe they didn't check first. Additionally you would have us believe they didn't check to see if the body was there when they posted the guard.[/quote]
.
Ask the other 3 gospels that ignore that interpolation.
.
[quote]Conclusion: You expect me to disregard four written records that Yeshua rose from the dead as well as a chain of witnesses throughout the ages as well as my personal experience of receiving the Holy Spirit and believe your explanation of events which make no sense to me.[/quote]

I have just done my job to show you the truth. If according to II Cor.5:7 you are of those who walk by face and not by sight, you can choose to remain in the dark.
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#4 Jul 29, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
"MESSIANIC114"[quote ][/quote]
.
<quoted text> First because Yeshua was a Jewish man and Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection.
.
<response> the resurrection is an article of faith according to Maimonides. In fact he asserts that denying any of his 13 principles makes one NOT a Jew. The foolishness of the quoted text is apparent to all even if one takes it allegorically, there are Jews who take it literally. Certainly the historical understanding holds this view.
.
<quoted text> And second, the contradictions in the NT about Jesus' resurrection are just too many.
.
Produce one contradiction that stands the test of the definition of contradiction we find in the dictionary.
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<quoted text> [quote]If that was the intent of the author to say there wasn't a resurrection why would the author not say so?
.
Because the author was a Hellenist to whom resurrection was a fact.
.
<response> You have just admitted that this was the intent of the author.
.
<quoted text> Why would he say just four verses later that Yeshua walked with them and talked with them?
.
Them whom the Apostles? Why didn't they ever preach about Jesus' resurrection?
.
<response> Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
.
So not only did they preach the resurrection but they assert that they have seen the resurrected Messiah.
.
<quoted text> Why would he relate Yeshua showing the wounds of his crucifixtion to them?
.
The wounds of the crucifixion, not of the resurrection.
.
<response> The wounds prove that he was crucified. The piercing of his side into the heart was evidence he was dead and that who appeared to them was in fact the same one who suffered and was crucified as the Jewish tradition tells us would happen.
.
<quoted text> So the reason we believe in the resurrection is that people witnessed the risen Messiah.
.
To see someone alive after his passion is not proof even that he died, let alone that he resurrected.(Acts 1:3)
.
<response> You would have us believe anyone ever survived a Roman crucifixtion.
.
<quoted text> Would you say that the Red Sea didn't divide and Israel didn't walk through just because we only have the Torah to say it happened?[/quote]
.
It could have been metaphorical. Parting of the sea means escape from deep troubles.
.
<response> So now you would have us believe that Israel was never in slavery in Egypt because why wouldn't we take that as allegory and that Israel is not chosen as a people because that is allegory also. What kind of Jew are you anyway? An allegorical Jew?
.
<quoted text> Additionally there is a chain of testimony through the ages as to the resurrection.
.
Testimonies based on Christian preconceived notions.
.
<response> A testimony is not based upon preconceived notions but by hearing or seeing.
.
<quoted text> This seems hard to believe they didn't check first. Additionally you would have us believe they didn't check to see if the body was there when they posted the guard.
.
Ask the other 3 gospels that ignore that interpolation.
.
<response> You seem to think that the other gospels have to mention everything in detail to collaborate each other. If this were so there would be no need for four gospels. In fact if the gospels were exactly alike we would assume collaboration. The fact that there are differences support the truth of the witnesses.

Since: Feb 13

Los Angeles, CA

#5 Jul 30, 2013
From Shibolet to Messianic114:

M114: the resurrection is an article of faith according to Maimonides. In fact he asserts that denying any of his 13 principles makes one NOT a Jew. The foolishness of the quoted text is apparent to all even if one takes it allegorically, there are Jews who take it literally. Certainly the historical understanding holds this view.

Shibolet: There is absolutely nothing about bodily resurrection in the 13 Principles of Faith of Maimonides. You see it that way because your mind is controlled by Christian preconceived notions.

M114:Produce one contradiction that stands the test of the definition of contradiction we find in the dictionary.

Shibolet: Mat.12:40 states that Jesus would spent 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb. He was buried Friday evening and at the end of that Saturday the tomb was empty. Where can you find 3 days and 3 nights in less than 24 hours?(Mat.27:62-28:1)

M114: Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Shibolet: Peter never delivered that speech. He was Jewish and it would have been a contradiction to Judaism. The author was Luke a Hellenist Greek man. In fact he was the one who wrote the book of Acts.

M114: So not only did they preach the resurrection but they assert that they have seen the resurrected Messiah.

Shibolet: Really? How come that the Sect of the Nazarenes was headquartered in Jerusalem and recognized by main stream Judaism and that when Paul came to preach his gospel in Jerusalem the local
Jews almost killed him for preaching idolatry?(Acts 9:29)

M14: The wounds prove that he was crucified. The piercing of his side into the heart was evidence he was dead and that who appeared to them was in fact the same one who suffered and was crucified as the Jewish tradition tells us would happen.

Shibolet: But not that he had resurrected. The issue in discussion here is Jesus' bodily resurrection and not crucifixion

M114: You would have us believe anyone ever survived a Roman crucifixion.

Shibolet: According to Josephus, "It was not uncommon for Jews to linger on their crosses for up to 3 or 4 days passing out and back till eventually death would catch up with them." In the case of Jesus though, he was removed after only a few hours. Joseph of Arimathea must have detected that life was still in the body and laid him to rest in his walk-in tomb for an hour or two and went back to get his men to help raising him up.

M14: So now you would have us believe that Israel was never in slavery in Egypt because why wouldn't we take that as allegory and that Israel is not chosen as a people because that is allegory also. What kind of Jew are you anyway? An allegorical Jew?

Shibolet: The slavery of the Jews in Egypt was a historical fact as was the one caused by Babylon, as was the one caused by the Romans. And from those exiles the Jews returned which I am an eyewitness of the return of the 3rd one as I have taken part in it myself.

M114: A testimony is not based upon preconceived notions but by hearing or seeing.

Shibolet: Wrong! You have read that Jesus said that the Jews are the light of the world.(Mat.5:14) Why don't you believe him? You have read that Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews.(John
4:22) Why don't you believe him? I tell you why: Because what he said is not according to Christian preconceived notions.

M114: You seem to think that the other gospels have to mention everything in detail to collaborate each other. If this were so there would be no need for four gospels. In fact if the gospels were exactly alike we would assume collaboration. The fact that there are differences support the truth of the witnesses.

Shibolet: Differences that contradict each other cannot carry any truth in them.
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#6 Jul 30, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
From Shibolet to Messianic114:
.
Both the Pharisees and the Essenes believed in the resurrection of the body...
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12697-...
.
<quoted text> Shibolet: Mat.12:40 states that Jesus would spent 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb. He was buried Friday evening and at the end of that Saturday the tomb was empty. Where can you find 3 days and 3 nights in less than 24 hours?(Mat.27:62-28:1)
.
<response> Yeshua was not crucified on a Friday. Sounds like you are the one with catholic preconceived notions.
.
<quoted text> M114: Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Shibolet: Peter never delivered that speech. He was Jewish and it would have been a contradiction to Judaism. The author was Luke a Hellenist Greek man. In fact he was the one who wrote the book of Acts.
.
<response> You have not sustained your assertion that bodily resurrection is non-Jewish even though I have cited Jewish sources to say it is a Jewish belief.
.
<quoted text> M114: So not only did they preach the resurrection but they assert that they have seen the resurrected Messiah.
Shibolet: Really? How come that the Sect of the Nazarenes was headquartered in Jerusalem and recognized by main stream Judaism and that when Paul came to preach his gospel in Jerusalem the local
Jews almost killed him for preaching idolatry?(Acts 9:29)
.
As far as I can see this has nothing to do with the resurrection. This is a red herring.
.
<quoted text> M14: The wounds prove that he was crucified. The piercing of his side into the heart was evidence he was dead and that who appeared to them was in fact the same one who suffered and was crucified as the Jewish tradition tells us would happen.
Shibolet: But not that he had resurrected. The issue in discussion here is Jesus' bodily resurrection and not crucifixion.
.
<response> You can't have proof of a resurrection if no one recognizes the body, which they did. Seeing him alive after the crucifixion and the piercing of his side is the testimony that he was dead and came back to life.
.
<quoted text> M114: You would have us believe anyone ever survived a Roman crucifixion.
Shibolet: According to Josephus, "It was not uncommon for Jews to linger on their crosses for up to 3 or 4 days passing out and back till eventually death would catch up with them." In the case of Jesus though, he was removed after only a few hours. Joseph of Arimathea must have detected that life was still in the body and laid him to rest in his walk-in tomb for an hour or two and went back to get his men to help raising him up.
.
This doesn't give any historical data of someone surviving a crucifixion. Show evidence someone fooled the Romans into thinking they were dead but they really weren't.
.
<quoted text> Shibolet: Wrong! You have read that Jesus said that the Jews are the light of the world.(Mat.5:14) Why don't you believe him? You have read that Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews.(John 4:22) Why don't you believe him? I tell you why: Because what he said is not according to Christian preconceived notions.
.
< response> I don't believe it because he said that to his disciples not the Jewish people as a whole as any plain reading of the text would tell you. Therefore it is those who receive the "light of the world" (the second Adam, the Messiah) who are the light of the world because we become the mystical body of the Messiah. It is this body that will be resurrected Isa 26:19 as individuals in bodily form.
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<quoted text> Shibolet: Differences that contradict each other cannot carry any truth in them.
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This would be true if you had in fact a contradiction, so far you haven't produced one.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#7 Aug 27, 2013
Shibolet wrote:
PRODUCE THE BODY.
Dear Shibolet,
Did he or did he not? I am talking about the resurrection of Jesus. If he did not resurrect, would you be able to produce the body? If you are not able to explain what happened, how about giving yourself up?
David Mishkin - Los Angeles, CA USA.
Dear Mr.Mishkin,
No sir, he did not. If you get yourself together and then put together whatever you can from reading the NT about the resurrection of Jesus, you will see that he did not. Now I would like to bring to your attention some points about that tale. Tale! Yes sir, and the term is not mine. I am borrowing it from Jesus' own disciples who went even further by adding the adjective idle. Idle tale, they said.(Luke24:11) The women had reported the word of the "angel" that Jesus had resurrected. The disciples probably had never heard of such a thing. They had no choice but to discard the report as an idle tale. Now think. If those who lived daily with Jesus, listening daily to his words could not believe the report, how can we be expected to after 2000 years of listening to a tale that just won't get less idle?
When did the disciples ever change their minds about the idle tale of the resurrection? I wonder because years later when the Cause of the Nazarenes was booming, Paul appeared preaching that Jesus had resurrected and almost got killed in Jerusalem. Why if the Nazarenes were headquartered in Jerusalem and coexisting peacefully with mainstrem Judaism? Yes, but the resurrection of Jesus was not an item in their agenda. The whole thing had been made up by Paul. Yes, all according to his gospel as he himself revealed it to his disciple Timothy.(II Tim.2:8) Paul needed that tale to promote his Cause which turned out to be Christianity.
The resurrection of Jesus, if it must be accepted it has to be only and exclusively by faith because there is no evidence to substantiate the event. An empty tomb is no proof of resurrection and the refusal at the time to produce the body does not diminish from the fact that the body was indeed removed from there. And the guards can never be taken as evidence of anything whatsoever because they were set at the tomb area only late Saturday morning.(Mat.27:62-66) The disciple who removed Jesus' body from that tomb had the whole night of Friday all for himself to act without anydisturbance. If you don't mind discussing the issue further, I can even provide you with the name of the disciple who removed the body and found to be rather prudent not to produce it. And he did it because he had enough reasons to believe that by not doing it even during the hours of that Sabbath, Mary Magdalene would have done it herself as she declared she would.(John 20:15) So I wish the preachers of the resurrection would at least give Paul the credit that's due him.(II Tim.2:8)
so, based on 1 verse you deny the resurrection? what about the account of Him in Acts? all the appearances to the apostle's, doubting Thomas???

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