Does Almah=Betulah or not ?

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Levi

Charlotte, NC

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#1
Jul 24, 2008
 
Isaiah 7:14 KJV
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a "virgin" shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

YISHEYAH 7:14
Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the "young woman" shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

I humbly ask. is there any place in the Tanakh where a virgin is also considered a young woman?
Yankee Doodle

Hillsboro, MO

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#2
Jul 25, 2008
 
You answered it elsewhere: Genesis 23:43

almah = maiden, young girl, virgin

Rebecca is earlier called a virgin "btulah"
Levi

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#3
Jul 25, 2008
 

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Yankee Doodle wrote:
You answered it elsewhere: Genesis 23:43
almah = maiden, young girl, virgin
Rebecca is earlier called a virgin "btulah"
Now why would the writer use these 2 words to depict a young girl as a "virgin" and at the same time call it woman ?

Perhaps a poor translation or someone purposely misinterpreted these words?

BERESHIT 24:16
And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a "virgin", neither had any man known her; and she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

BERESHIT 24:43
behold, I stand by the fountain of water; and let it come to pass, that the "maiden" that cometh forth to draw, to whom I shall say: Give me, I pray thee, a little water from thy pitcher to drink;

Very interesting......I wonder why ?

Since: Mar 07

netanya

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#4
Jul 27, 2008
 

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Levi wrote:
<quoted text>Now why would the writer use these 2 words to depict a young girl as a "virgin" and at the same time call it woman ?
Perhaps a poor translation or someone purposely misinterpreted these words?
BERESHIT 24:16
And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a "virgin", neither had any man known her; and she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
BERESHIT 24:43
behold, I stand by the fountain of water; and let it come to pass, that the "maiden" that cometh forth to draw, to whom I shall say: Give me, I pray thee, a little water from thy pitcher to drink;
Very interesting......I wonder why ?
i'll just repost the same answer i gave on the other thread since it's the same question:
In genesis 24:43 rifka is referred to as ‘almah’. In that same chapter she is also referred to as ‘bitulah’ and na’ara’. These are obviously not mutually exclusive terms.‘na’ara’ and ‘almah’ are translated as ‘maiden’ or ‘young woman’.‘bitulah’ is ‘virgin’.‘Virgin’ tells you that the woman has not had sexual intercourse with a man, not how old she is nor her marital status.‘almah’ and ‘na’ara’ tell you this is a young woman, not her sexual history nor her marital status. That’s all. So, yes. Rivka was a virgin when eliezar met her and was one until she married Yitzchak (verse 67). Stop trying to read into the jewish scriptures things that aren’t there and you’ll find your learning goes much easier.
Levi

Charlotte, NC

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#5
Jul 29, 2008
 

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aviva wrote:
<quoted text>
i'll just repost the same answer i gave on the other thread since it's the same question:
In genesis 24:43 rifka is referred to as ‘almah’. In that same chapter she is also referred to as ‘bitulah’ and na’ara’. These are obviously not mutually exclusive terms.‘na’ara’ and ‘almah’ are translated as ‘maiden’ or ‘young woman’.‘bitulah’ is ‘virgin’.‘Virgin’ tells you that the woman has not had sexual intercourse with a man, not how old she is nor her marital status.‘almah’ and ‘na’ara’ tell you this is a young woman, not her sexual history nor her marital status. That’s all. So, yes. Rivka was a virgin when eliezar met her and was one until she married Yitzchak (verse 67). Stop trying to read into the jewish scriptures things that aren’t there and you’ll find your learning goes much easier.
Thanks for your help aviva, I'm not trying to read into anything.......if something is there I will see it, and if it isn't, then it's not there.

That's why I was wondering why these goyim insist on Isaiah 7:14 meaning a "betulah" when it clearly says "almah"........and here in Genesis I find it used interchangeably as though they were equal in definition.

I wondered if the writer realized that instead of sticking to just one word "betulah" all the way throughout the chapter.

Since: Mar 07

netanya

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#6
Jul 30, 2008
 
51)“Thanks for your help aviva, I'm not trying to read into anything.......if something is there I will see it, and if it isn't, then it's not there.

That's why I was wondering why these goyim insist on Isaiah 7:14 meaning a "betulah" when it clearly says "almah"........and here in Genesis I find it used interchangeably as though they were equal in definition.”
Levi, I don’t think you understand my point. I mentioned that 3 terms are used to refer to rivka in that chapter: betulah, na’ara and almah. Almah is actually used only when eliezar is describing to rivka’s family how he came to meet rivka and when he explains that he thought to himself “and when ‘ha’almah’ comes to draw water and I ask her for water and she offers water to me and to my camels…” and one could argue that at that point in his story he didn’t yet know which girl would do this, but let’s say for the sake of non-argument that this word is referring to rivka. What I said to you is that these 3 terms are not mutually exclusive. Whereas ‘almah’ and ‘na’ara’ mean ‘young woman’,‘bitulah’ means ‘virgin’. A person can be a young woman and a virgin, at the same time.
What I perhaps did not make clear is that these terms are also not mutually inclusive either, meaning if you are one it does not automatically follow that you are the other. You may have a young woman who is a virgin, you may have a young woman who is not a virgin. You may have a virgin who is also a young woman. You may have a virgin who is an old woman. These terms are NOT used interchangeably, they simply describe different facts about that person. At that time rivka was a young girl AND a virgin. But as I have pointed out, one does not necessarily follow from the other and they don’t mean the same thing.

”I wondered if the writer realized that instead of sticking to just one word "betulah" all the way throughout the chapter.”
The writer is G-d, so I’m sure He realized what He was saying
Yankee Doodle

Hillsboro, MO

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#7
Aug 5, 2008
 
Hello Aviva

Perhaps you could tell us where The Jews get this idea of a "coming" Messiah from.

After all, every Messianic verse posted here has, according to you, been mis-translated.

So kindly inform us ignorant Christians about the basis of the Messianic hope in Judaism. From what I can see, there is NO basis for the Jews expecting a Messiah.

Please inform,

Thanks

Since: Mar 07

netanya

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#8
Aug 20, 2008
 
Yankee Doodle wrote:
Hello Aviva
Perhaps you could tell us where The Jews get this idea of a "coming" Messiah from.
After all, every Messianic verse posted here has, according to you, been mis-translated.
So kindly inform us ignorant Christians about the basis of the Messianic hope in Judaism. From what I can see, there is NO basis for the Jews expecting a Messiah.
Please inform,
Thanks
YD,
i can't remember which forum i wrote to you on telling you that i'm busy with the kids during summer vacation. anyway, i'm almost finished preparing the answers to all your posts except this one. i'll hopefully post what i have ready soon. and about this one, is it enough for me to just explain to you about the jewish messiah or would you prefer i include sources? aviva
Yankee Doodle

Hillsboro, MO

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#9
Aug 20, 2008
 
Since EVERY Messianic reference to Jesus is (according to you) taken out of context, I would be curious as to JUST WHICH messianic prophecies are considered "KOSHER".

Somehow, you will have to produce prophecies that are not spoken in any historical context, otherwise, they too will have to be invalidated.

I always thought that we really don't know that something is prophetic when it is originally uttered, but only confirms itself over time in a different context. This, however, is your argument. So again, I would be curious (as would other Messianic Jews) as to just which messianic prophecies are "Glot Kosher"

Toda Raba, ani michakeh!

“a disinherited son of cain”

Since: Apr 08

NoVa

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#10
Aug 28, 2008
 
Yeah, those crazy Jews! They've only held on to their language/traditions for a few thousand years! What would they know about any of those books and prophecies?

Obviously the Christians, who are fluent in Hebrew and can trace their teachers back to Moses, have the correct interpritation!

Oh wait...
Yesh

Mississauga, Canada

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#11
Aug 28, 2008
 
Yes Alma means betula !

Alma = maiden

Betula = virgin

A maiden who is married is no longer "Alma" but a "woman".

and a virgin who had pre-marital sex is no longer a maiden but a "whore" (according to the bible).

so all Almas are automaticaly Betulas.
All maidens are automaticaly virgins.
Tdm

United States

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#12
Sep 17, 2008
 
Yesh wrote:
Yes Alma means betula !
Alma = maiden
Betula = virgin
A maiden who is married is no longer "Alma" but a "woman".
and a virgin who had pre-marital sex is no longer a maiden but a "whore" (according to the bible).
so all Almas are automaticaly Betulas.
All maidens are automaticaly virgins.
Can you tell me what you mean by ....no longer a maiden but a "whore". My son's father is teaching him that waiting to be married to have sex is not in the bible. This change in "virgin until marriage" belief started after his dad's girlfriend ended up pregnant about a month after they met and well before marriage was even considered. Now he is using Hebrew translations to tell our son that "virgin" is not about sex and you only need to love someone for sex to be sinless.???? He is teaching our son that sex before marriage is fine and I just do not believe that is true.
Yesh

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#13
Sep 19, 2008
 

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Boys can never be virgins !!

They can be either experienced in sex or not.
Boys don't have a hymen.

A boy who has pre-marital sex is a fornicator.

A girl who has pre-marital sex is a W-H-O-R-E.

Also if that unmarried girl get's pregnant her child would be labled a "Ben-Zona" which means son of a whore, as the child was a product of whoredom.

Nowadays they put make-up on these terms and call them "love-child" in North-America, but they are really products of whoredom.

That's why the pregnant girl should get married to the boy she slept with, before she gives birth.

“a disinherited son of cain”

Since: Apr 08

NoVa

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#14
Sep 19, 2008
 
those silly products from the realm of whoredom!

Since: Mar 07

netanya

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#15
Oct 5, 2008
 
Yesh wrote:
Yes Alma means betula !
Alma = maiden
Betula = virgin
A maiden who is married is no longer "Alma" but a "woman".
and a virgin who had pre-marital sex is no longer a maiden but a "whore" (according to the bible).
so all Almas are automaticaly Betulas.
All maidens are automaticaly virgins.
How do you explain the fact that the ‘almah’ in isaiah 7:14 is ‘with child’? she is obviously not a virgin. If she was a pregnant virgin, then there is nothing special about mary since there was already at least one other virgin birth 700 years earlier. So the child born in the time of king ahaz and Isaiah is the Son of G-d. jesus only came 2nd and is clearly not G-d’s only begotten Son.
“A maiden who is married is no longer "Alma" but a "woman"” on what is this statement based? Where in jewish literature does it state this?
If the Hebrew word ‘alma’ means virgin then each usage in the bible must be either a clear reference to a virgin or at least be ambiguous. The word ‘alma’ appears in the jewish scriptures 7 times. If even one reference clearly refers to a woman who is not a virgin, then matthew’s rendition of Isaiah 7:14 becomes untenable.
One of the places where the uncommon word ‘alma’ appears in the bible is in proverbs 30:18-20 which reads,
“There are three things which are too wonderful for me, four which I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman (almah). This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says ‘I have done no wrong”

Since: Mar 07

netanya

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#16
Oct 5, 2008
 
Yesh wrote:
Yes Alma means betula !
Alma = maiden
Betula = virgin
A maiden who is married is no longer "Alma" but a "woman".
and a virgin who had pre-marital sex is no longer a maiden but a "whore" (according to the bible).
so all Almas are automaticaly Betulas.
All maidens are automaticaly virgins.
in the above three verses, king Solomon compares a man with an ‘alma’ to three other things: an eagle in the sky, a serpent on a rock, and a ship in the sea. What do these three things all have in common? They leave no trace. After the eagle has flown across the sky, determining that the eagle had ever flown there is impossible. Once a snake has slithered over a rock, there is no way to discern that the snake had ever crossed there (as opposed to a snake slithering over sand or grass, where it leaves a trail). After a ship has passed across the sea, its wake comes together and settles behind it and thus there is no way to tell that a ship had ever mover throught this body of water. Similarly, king Solomon declares that once a man has been with an ‘alma’, there is also no trace of the fornication that had occureed between them. Therefore, in the following verse (verse 20), king Solomon explains that once this adulterous woman ‘eats’( a metaphor for her fornication), she removes the trace of her sexual activity,‘wipes her mouth’ and says ‘I have done no wrong’. The word ‘alma’ clearly does not mean virgin.

Since: Mar 07

netanya

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#17
Oct 5, 2008
 
Yesh wrote:
Yes Alma means betula !
Alma = maiden
Betula = virgin
A maiden who is married is no longer "Alma" but a "woman".
and a virgin who had pre-marital sex is no longer a maiden but a "whore" (according to the bible).
so all Almas are automaticaly Betulas.
All maidens are automaticaly virgins.
In the same way that in the English language the words ‘young woman’ have no bearing on where virginity is present or not, in the Hebrew language there is not relationship between the words ‘alma’ and virgin. On the contrary, it is usually a young woman who bears children. Had Isaiah wished to speak about a virgin, he would have used the word ‘betulah’, not ‘alma’.‘betula’ is a common word in the jewish scriptures ana can only mean ‘virgin’. In fact, although Isaiah used the word ‘alma’ only one time in his entire corpus, he uses the word ‘betulah’ five times throughout the book of Isaiah (23:4; 23:12; 37:22; 47:1; 62:5)

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netanya

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#18
Oct 7, 2008
 
Yesh wrote:
Yes Alma means betula !
Alma = maiden
Betula = virgin
A maiden who is married is no longer "Alma" but a "woman".
and a virgin who had pre-marital sex is no longer a maiden but a "whore" (according to the bible).
so all Almas are automaticaly Betulas.
All maidens are automaticaly virgins.
It is also worth noting that
The Hebrew word in question in Isaiah 7:14 ha-'almah.
in the Greek Septuagint (Christian OT) is translated as &#960;&#945;&#961; &#952;&#949;&#957; &#959;&#962;/parthenos .
In the Latin Vulgate (Christian OT) this word is translated as virgo.
In the KJV (Christian OT) this word is translated as virgin.
The different forms of the word 'almah are used 7 times in the Hebrew Bible. ha-'almah in particular is used three times including the example in Isaiah 7:14. The two other examples are:
Genesis 24:43
43. Behold, I am standing by the water fountain. When a maiden (&#1492;&#1464;&#1 506;&#1463;&#1500; &#1456;&#1502;&#14 64;&#1492;/ha-'almah) comes out to draw [water], I will say to her,'Please, give me a little water to drink from your pitcher.'

Exodus 2:8
8. Pharaoh's daughter said to her, "Go!" So the girl (&#1492;&#1464;&#1 506;&#1463;&#1500; &#1456;&#1502;&#14 64;&#1492;/ha-'almah) went and called the child's mother.

Although it can be assumed that the young girls (Rebecca and Miriam) in these two verses were virgins, the word in and of itself has no sexual implications. A young maiden may very well be a virgin, or may very well not be.

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netanya

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#19
Oct 7, 2008
 
Yesh wrote:
Yes Alma means betula !
Alma = maiden
Betula = virgin
A maiden who is married is no longer "Alma" but a "woman".
and a virgin who had pre-marital sex is no longer a maiden but a "whore" (according to the bible).
so all Almas are automaticaly Betulas.
All maidens are automaticaly virgins.
Moving on, how do the Greek Septuagint and Latin Vulgate translate these two other instances of this same exact word?

The Greek Septuagint translates the word in Genesis 24:43 as ‘parthenos’.
The Greek Septuagint translates the same exact word in Exodus 2:8 as ‘neanis’.

The Latin Vulgate translates this word at Genesis 24:43 as ‘virgo’.
The Latin Vulgate translates the same exact word in Exodus 2:8 as ‘puella’.

The word ha-'almah is the same in all three of these instance in the Hebrew Bible, yet for some reason both early Christian translations - the Greek Septuagint and Latin Vulgate - choose to translate the instances in Genesis and Isaiah differently than in Exodus. This difference is also carried over into the KJV where Genesis 24:43 and Isaiah 7:14 read "virgin" and Exodus 2:8 reads "maid".

Why? What is the purpose? What caused all of these Christian translators to translate the word correctly in Exodus 2:8 in reference to Miriam, then turn around and mistranslate it as if the original word denotes sexual connotation in Isaiah 7:14 and Gen. 24:23 (Rebecca and the woman in Isaiah)?
What can the manner in which the GS (Greek Septuagint) uses parthenos tell us? Are there any other Hebrew words which the GS translates into parthenos? Why, in fact, there are a number of other words. ha-na'ara in Genesis 24:14, 16, and 55 for instance. And na'ara in Deuteronomy 22:23. And ha-b'tulah in Judges 19:24. And b'tulah in 2 Samuel 13:2. And b'tulat in 2 Kings 19:21. And let us not forget the two instances of ha-na'ara in Genesis 34:3, which the GS translates once as parthenos and once as parthenon.
The GS translates all of these words as the same word, parthenos. But do they all have the same meaning? Are they all just different words for the same thing?
The answer is no. Na'ara - like 'almah - has no inherent sexual connotation. In the case of Rebecca it is used for a young maiden that is a virgin. However, in the case of Dinah (Genesis 34:3) it is used for a young maiden that is most definitely not a virgin. Yet the GS uses the same word - parthenos - for both a young virgin as well as a non-virgin.

All of this calls into question why the word is used in situations where the sexual experience of the person it is being used for is not known. Not only that, but because of its use in an instance where the young girl in question is most certainly not a virgin, it calls into question whether the word parthenos in the Greek Septuagint is even meant to denote a virgin. In a number of cases parthenos is used for the Hebrew word b'tulah which does mean virgin. But it's use for words ('almah and na'ara) that don't inherently mean virgin make it difficult to conclude whether the GS authors intended for the word parthenos to be understood exclusively to mean a virgin (in which case they would have been mistranslating quite a number of verses) or if they intended to use the word parthenos to denote a young maiden. To summarize, the history of the GS and the Latin Vulgate shows how the original Hebrew words which mean one thing were translated using words which mean something entirely different.

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netanya

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#20
Oct 7, 2008
 
Yesh wrote:
Boys can never be virgins !!
They can be either experienced in sex or not.
Boys don't have a hymen.
A boy who has pre-marital sex is a fornicator.
A girl who has pre-marital sex is a W-H-O-R-E.
Also if that unmarried girl get's pregnant her child would be labled a "Ben-Zona" which means son of a whore, as the child was a product of whoredom.
Nowadays they put make-up on these terms and call them "love-child" in North-America, but they are really products of whoredom.
That's why the pregnant girl should get married to the boy she slept with, before she gives birth.
On a side note,'almah is feminine, the masculine form is/'elem. It is used twice in the Hebrew Bible, once for David in 1 Samuel 17:56&#1492;&#1464; &#1506;&#1464;&#15 00;&#1462;&#1501;/ha-' alem), and the other for the youth in 1 Samuel 20:22 (&#1500;&#1464;&#1 506;&#1462;&#1500; &#1462;&#1501;/la-'ele m). In none of the cases of 'almah or 'elem is it used to mean "virgin". It is obvious that the word has to do with something other than sexual status. Try fitting virgin into these verses and perhaps you will see how ridiculous it sounds trying to force Isaiah 7:14 to say thus.

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