Can someone please seriously explain ...

Can someone please seriously explain to me

Posted in the Messianic Judaism Forum

“Proud Southerner”

Since: May 07

Israel, betach b'HaShem!

#1 Dec 28, 2012
What is exactly "Messianic Judaism"?

You consider yourselves Jews, bent to the laws of the Halacha, or Christians, worshipping Jesus?

Isn't "Messianic Judaism" as you see it, oxymoron? Why are you not calling yourselves "Christians"? Which is of the Jewish religion you take and which is it that you leave outside?

Not being sarcastic, if someone can answer seriously, I'll be more than thankful.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#2 Dec 29, 2012
Lipush wrote:
What is exactly "Messianic Judaism"?
You consider yourselves Jews, bent to the laws of the Halacha, or Christians, worshipping Jesus?
Isn't "Messianic Judaism" as you see it, oxymoron? Why are you not calling yourselves "Christians"? Which is of the Jewish religion you take and which is it that you leave outside?
Not being sarcastic, if someone can answer seriously, I'll be more than thankful.
.
The early believers in Yeshua were Jews and met in the synagogues for years until they were expelled. They were known as the "Way" or the "sect of the Nazerene". Act 19:23, Act 22:4, Act 24:14, Act 24:22, Act 24:5, Act 28:22.
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If the church had followed the disciples doctrine and traditions (2Th 2:15, 2Th 3:6, Rev 14:12, 2Jn 1:6) there wouldn't be the great difference between the two groups. It would have come down to has the Messiah come and is he divine. Both of these doctrines are supported by the Tenach and have been fulfilled in Yeshua.
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Within the Judaisms of today there are those who take and leave, are they no longer Jews? I think if one was to use equal weights and measures it cannot be said that Jews who believe in Yeshua no longer practice Judaism because they believe some things have been superceded when the majority of Jews today do not adhere to the commandments.

“Proud Southerner”

Since: May 07

Israel, betach b'HaShem!

#3 Dec 30, 2012
On which commandments you speak of? And personally I believe that a Jew who believes in Yeshua basically loses himself a little bit, as in an understatement "Ve'af al pi sheyitmahamea, bechol zot achake lo shayavo" wasn't said about Jesus.

the 613 commandments cannot be fullfiled today as they are, because some speak of the Holy Temple, which doesn't exist these days.

If you ask any Israeli/Jewish Rabbi, they will say that Messianic Judaism is "Avodah Zarah". If you believe in Yeshua, then you're Christian. Which part of Judaism you adopt to let yourself be called a "Jew"? That's what personally, I don't get.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#7 Dec 31, 2012
Lipush wrote:
On which commandments you speak of? And personally I believe that a Jew who believes in Yeshua basically loses himself a little bit, as in an understatement "Ve'af al pi sheyitmahamea, bechol zot achake lo shayavo" wasn't said about Jesus.
the 613 commandments cannot be fullfiled today as they are, because some speak of the Holy Temple, which doesn't exist these days.
If you ask any Israeli/Jewish Rabbi, they will say that Messianic Judaism is "Avodah Zarah". If you believe in Yeshua, then you're Christian. Which part of Judaism you adopt to let yourself be called a "Jew"? That's what personally, I don't get.
.
As you have pointed out some commandments are not possible to keep. That said there are commandments that they can keep but refuse to.
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I am not interested in the opinion of any sect of rabbis. If Messianic Judaism was Avodah Zarah then it would have been stated as such in the Talmud. I believe the reason it wasn't is that if you analyse the objections against Yeshua you will find that Jews have believed in these principles. That is why Messianic Judaism is Judaism because historically the tenets of "MJ" are Jewish.
.
To make a comparision when Jews believed that Schnerson was the Messiah (and if you read his writings he taught that the Messiah is divine) they didn't stop being Jews. When Jews believed S. Sevi was the Messiah and he refered to himself as "the Lord your G-d" they didn't stop being Jews either.
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Lastly you are changing the argument. As a goy I don't become a Jew by believing that Yeshua is the Messiah or by following the commandments. Jews stay Jews and Goy stay Goy.

“Proud Southerner”

Since: May 07

Israel, betach b'HaShem!

#8 Dec 31, 2012
Messianic Judaism is not recognized in the way it is that way back to be recognized in the Talmud as Avodah Zarah.

While I respect anyone from any religion that doesn't harm Jews, peronally I have difficulty in understanding the trinity, because it's viewed by me, and many others in Judaism, as the concept in which people believe in a God that splits himself in three. Which is the one God, then? The father, the son, the holy spirit? If Jesus is son of God, then how can Jesus be God himself? many unanswered questions, but that's not really the issue, i guess.

The roots of Christians, who call themselves Christians, are also Jewish. "reformed" Judaism is also Judaism. Hell, 90% of Islam can be seen as Judaism as well, by some. all depends who you ask.

The Talmud and the Torah says that the Messiah has to be identified by dew ways, that according to Judaism, Jesus did not fulfilled. If people believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and they're born to Jewish mother, they're still Jews. "Bad" Jews, but still Jews. But if they have no ethnic connection to Judaism and believe in MJ, then they're not.

Jews stay always Jews according to the Halacha, and Goys can become Jews by accepting the burden of Judaism and being Jewish.

I guess the question is, what separates MJ from Christianity, in field? You keep shabbat? you fast at yom kippur? you eat kosher? you light Chanukkah candles and keep yourselves from eating Chamezt at Pesach? what is the Jewish part in Messianic Judaism, really?

“Proud Southerner”

Since: May 07

Israel, betach b'HaShem!

#9 Dec 31, 2012
Btw, Messianic, even with the disagreements, I am very thankful for you taking the time to debate with me on that in a civilized manner, I believe this discussion is very enlighting, even if it doesnt seem so:) happy new year.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#12 Jan 1, 2013
Lipush wrote:
Messianic Judaism is not recognized in the way it is that way back to be recognized in the Talmud as Avodah Zarah.
While I respect anyone from any religion that doesn't harm Jews, peronally I have difficulty in understanding the trinity, because it's viewed by me, and many others in Judaism, as the concept in which people believe in a God that splits himself in three. Which is the one God, then? The father, the son, the holy spirit? If Jesus is son of God, then how can Jesus be God himself? many unanswered questions, but that's not really the issue, i guess.
The roots of Christians, who call themselves Christians, are also Jewish. "reformed" Judaism is also Judaism. Hell, 90% of Islam can be seen as Judaism as well, by some. all depends who you ask.
The Talmud and the Torah says that the Messiah has to be identified by dew ways, that according to Judaism, Jesus did not fulfilled. If people believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and they're born to Jewish mother, they're still Jews. "Bad" Jews, but still Jews. But if they have no ethnic connection to Judaism and believe in MJ, then they're not.
Jews stay always Jews according to the Halacha, and Goys can become Jews by accepting the burden of Judaism and being Jewish.
I guess the question is, what separates MJ from Christianity, in field? You keep shabbat? you fast at yom kippur? you eat kosher? you light Chanukkah candles and keep yourselves from eating Chamezt at Pesach? what is the Jewish part in Messianic Judaism, really?
I am going to assume by your answer that you are not of the Hasidim. If you start familiarizing yourself with Chabad especially the writings of R. Schneerson you will start to get a hint of the G-dhead. Another reference I will suggest is "Sabbatei Zevi - The Mystical Messiah" by Gershom Scholem. He also wrote a book "The Mystery of the G-dhead" but that is quite advanced. Certainly what you will be able to understand after study is that Jews do believe in a complex unity. Wether or not you accept or can understand is irrelevant. Historically Jews have believed and still do believe in emanations of Ein Sof which are distinct from each other yet are still G-d.
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If you drink something that is 90% healthy and 10% poison, what will happen to you. The 10% poison is this:
1. The scriptures are corrupted.
2. Jews are to be killed.
3. Mohammed is the prophet of G-d.
4. All are to be subjected to the religion of Mohammed.
5. I'm sure there is much more, but I don't study Islam.
.
That same Talmud also says that the Messiah would come 2000 years after Abraham. Daniel tells us the Messiah would die and then the sanctuary would be destroyed. Hagai tells us that the glory of the second temple would exceed the glory of the first temple. The Shekinah visited the first temple but the incarnation visited the second. Hosea tells us the Messiah will come two times (6:3) and Midrash Rabbah Ruth on Ruth 2:14 tells us the same thing.
.
What seperates MJ from Christianity is the keeping of the commandments and the association with pagan festivals (Easter and X-mas being the most prominant).
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So if we compare this to MJ, Christianity rejects the Torah where MJ only rejects the rabbis' conception of how the redemption is to take place.
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I would be shocked if you told me you were aware that rabbinic writings say the Messiah will come two times.
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I do keep Shabat, I did fast before I became diabetic and I do keep kosher. Keep in mind like Karaite Jews, I consider the teachings of the rabbis as non binding, so I don't have seperate dishes for meat and dairy. Besides I don't claim to be 100% observant even in the things I do believe are the way to live. Sometimes I lose my temper, sometimes I think things I shouldn't, sometimes I don't treat others as I should. Fortunately the Messiah has taken upon himself all my sin (Exod. Rabbah 35, Tree of Souls - Howard Schwartz pp 49, Tree of Souls - Howard Schwartz pp 516, Pesikta Rabati, Piska 36:142.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#13 Jan 1, 2013
Lipush wrote:
Btw, Messianic, even with the disagreements, I am very thankful for you taking the time to debate with me on that in a civilized manner, I believe this discussion is very enlighting, even if it doesnt seem so:) happy new year.
.
I appreciate your thankfulness and I feel the same way about you. Whether or not you agree with me is no reason for me to treat you with disrespect.
.
Shana Tova

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#15 Jan 7, 2013
yon wrote:
MESSIANIC JUDAISM
"While Christianity is far off to the left of the straight and narrow path, disregarding Torah altogether, Messianic Judaism is equally off to the right, clinching onto the man-made doctrines of the Talmud while forsaking the Torah.
INTRODUCTION
There are many examples of how Messianic Judaism in General is as far off to the right from the truth as Christianity is off to the left. Messianic Judaism although Messianic in theory is nothing more than Messianic Rabbinical Judaism. Messianic Judaism still clinches onto the very doctrines of the Talmud that the Messiah set us free from. On numerous occasions, I have personally witnessed and experienced many of their man-made traditions and in some cases the legalism (law on the law) that is pushed while ignoring the Scripture altogether.....
THE SACRIFICIAL CHICKEN?
"Since we are on the subject of eating...this has to be the silliest of all Rabbinical traditions. The Talmud says that we are to replace the Passover Lamb with a Passover Chicken since the second Temple was destroyed in the year 70 CE. Sadly, Messianic Judaism also follow this practice of partaking of a chicken in place of the lamb on Passover. Let me say this, there was not a temple during the first Passover when this commandment was given to us.
'Let the lamb be a perfect one, a year old male. Take it from the sheep or from the goats.(ISR Shemoth 12:5)
This is one of those hard to understand passages again. The hard part to understand must be the part where the passage in question says "Take it from the sheep or the goats". I see where you just naturally want to add chicken or even turkey to the end of the passage.
My Messiah is not a chicken nor is He a turkey! The only chickens I see are the spineless cowards afraid to stand up to the leaders in the Messianic community that teach these false doctrines. The turkeys I see are the spineless cowards teaching these perverted doctrines.
This doctrine is not as silly as I previously thought, it is outright perversion, a disgrace, and wickedness at its best. As I looked at the Scripture to find an appropriate passage to share, I started to imagine how these verses would read when Lamb is replaced with Chicken.
And I looked and saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders a Chicken standing, as having been slain...(ISR Revelation 5:6)
And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Chicken...(ISR Revelation 5:8)........."
http://www.nazarite.net/messianic.html
__________
John 17:6
“I have revealed your name to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word."
http://passionfortruth.com
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Just out of curiosity, do you kill a lamb and spread the blood on your doorposts?
Graham

Calgary, Canada

#17 Jan 8, 2013
yon wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what do you do?
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I eat lamb at home, but if I were to go to a congregational Pesach, I would eat what is on the menu.
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It seems you focus too much on the shadow and by doing so are diminishing the substance which it represents.
Graham

Calgary, Canada

#19 Jan 8, 2013
yon wrote:
At high holidays people the world over generally have special dishes that are as important as the occasion itself. EG Thanksgiving turkey, Christmas goose, etc.
But to commemorate the Sacrificial Lamb with a chicken or a turkey bone on your Seder plate to me is sacrilege. You might as well eat a rabbit. But people are going to do what they're going to do. And if it offends the Creator - so be it. If he says "declare my name," but you say "no way," - well people just don't learn. You'd think that 2000 years in exile would have made the point. But still they will not learn.
Yechezkel 2
2 And the Spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet; and I heard him that spake unto me.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to nations that are rebellious, which have rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me even unto this very day.
4 And the children are impudent and stiff-hearted: I do sent thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith YAHWEH
5 And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear,(for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
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Does that mean you spread the blood on the door?

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#21 Jan 10, 2013
yon wrote:
Ex 12
14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial, and ye shall keep it a feast to YAHWEH: throughout your generations ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
.
I'll take that as a no.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#22 Jan 14, 2013
Lipush wrote:
What is exactly "Messianic Judaism"?
You consider yourselves Jews, bent to the laws of the Halacha, or Christians, worshipping Jesus?
Isn't "Messianic Judaism" as you see it, oxymoron? Why are you not calling yourselves "Christians"? Which is of the Jewish religion you take and which is it that you leave outside?
Not being sarcastic, if someone can answer seriously, I'll be more than thankful.
there is no difference between orthodox & messianic judism. the messianic's follow the orthodox calendar. they've added a 3rd reading from the new testament to the torah readings. they start the sabbath with music & dance. & there's a lot more english used during the ceremony. it's for jews, but there are many converts. the orthodox world hates them.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#24 Jan 17, 2013
yon wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
The day is to be COMMEMORATED, not REPEATED IN EVERY DETAIL!
This business of Jews and Gentiles both either forsaking or ignoring the Tanakh is huge to the understanding of things now going on in the end times. The churches are for the most part dead and Jews just follow Rabbis.
http://passionfortruth.com
https://www.google.com/search...
.
It was your criticism that some are eating chicken to commenerate the day, so it seems a little hypocritical to me that you are criticizing others when you are not following yourself.
.
It seems you have decided that you are the judge of how to commemerate the day and the behaviour of others.
god

Church Creek, MD

#27 Jan 23, 2013
Lipush wrote:
Messianic Judaism is not recognized in the way it is that way back to be recognized in the Talmud as Avodah Zarah.
While I respect anyone from any religion that doesn't harm Jews, peronally I have difficulty in understanding the trinity, because it's viewed by me, and many others in Judaism, as the concept in which people believe in a God that splits himself in three. Which is the one God, then? The father, the son, the holy spirit? If Jesus is son of God, then how can Jesus be God himself? many unanswered questions, but that's not really the issue, i guess.
The roots of Christians, who call themselves Christians, are also Jewish. "reformed" Judaism is also Judaism. Hell, 90% of Islam can be seen as Judaism as well, by some. all depends who you ask.
The Talmud and the Torah says that the Messiah has to be identified by dew ways, that according to Judaism, Jesus did not fulfilled. If people believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and they're born to Jewish mother, they're still Jews. "Bad" Jews, but still Jews. But if they have no ethnic connection to Judaism and believe in MJ, then they're not.
Jews stay always Jews according to the Halacha, and Goys can become Jews by accepting the burden of Judaism and being Jewish.
I guess the question is, what separates MJ from Christianity, in field? You keep shabbat? you fast at yom kippur? you eat kosher? you light Chanukkah candles and keep yourselves from eating Chamezt at Pesach? what is the Jewish part in Messianic Judaism, really?
pure religion is not a matter either of keeping certain laws or in a personality cult around a certain person

it is intellectual principles that advance ones life

in my case the advaita idea that we are destined to merge w. god & the process is already well under way

also i think recarn is important for who can put ones life in order in a lifetime

jewish & christian history recorded in the bible is also important in demonstrating a righteous attitude

the only thing thats lacking for me is the purpose of life

sure its good to have the mass of humanity redeemed from sin but what then...what are we creating beyond a righteous community..theres got to be more

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