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1 - 16 of 16 Comments Last updated Jan 25, 2013

Since: Nov 09

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#1 Jun 28, 2012
THE SCOURGING THAT WAS NOT ASKED FOR

The Gospels paint the Jews so cruel as to have asked Pilate to crucify Jesus; and Pilate so good as to run out of arguments to save Jesus from the cross by claiming that he had found no fault in him.(John 18:38)

But then comes the strike that broke the camel's back: The scourging. The text says that "Pilate's next move was to take Jesus and have him scourged before delivering him to be crucified.(John 19:1)

"Now, wait a minute!" I can almost hear the Jews saying: "We do not recall to have heard any one from our side asking for Jesus to be scourged; that one is upon you." Then, eyeing each other, they would ask in turn: "Did you ask for Jesus to be scourged?" "No, I didn't." Neither did I; so, don't even ask me."

As a matter of fact, if Pilate had found Jesus innocent, and even washed his hands of the blood of Jesus, as we have in Matthew 27:24, why would he add the scourging? If he was so anxious to prevent the mistake of crucifying a just man, why would he add one more act of cruelty that the Jews had not asked for? Forty lashes, minus one, and
don't forget to count.

It is only obvious that the whole thing was a big farce. That the slander that the Jews had asked Pilate to crucify Jesus was interpolated as a pious forgery to clear the Romans of the guilt on the crucifixion of Jesus, and to blame the Jews, which became in History, a blatant act of Antisemitism.

If the interpolation was not added later by the Church, but by the gospel writers themselves, it was too careless a blunder to depict Pilate ordering the scourging of Jesus, when he had tried so hard to exonerate Jesus from the death sentence on the cross.

The bottom line is that, the only way to see the truth here is that the dramatic set up was so stupid that the whole thing is not worthy the paper it was written on.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#2 Jan 1, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
THE SCOURGING THAT WAS NOT ASKED FOR
The Gospels paint the Jews so cruel as to have asked Pilate to crucify Jesus; and Pilate so good as to run out of arguments to save Jesus from the cross by claiming that he had found no fault in him.(John 18:38)
But then comes the strike that broke the camel's back: The scourging. The text says that "Pilate's next move was to take Jesus and have him scourged before delivering him to be crucified.(John 19:1)
"Now, wait a minute!" I can almost hear the Jews saying: "We do not recall to have heard any one from our side asking for Jesus to be scourged; that one is upon you." Then, eyeing each other, they would ask in turn: "Did you ask for Jesus to be scourged?" "No, I didn't." Neither did I; so, don't even ask me."
As a matter of fact, if Pilate had found Jesus innocent, and even washed his hands of the blood of Jesus, as we have in Matthew 27:24, why would he add the scourging? If he was so anxious to prevent the mistake of crucifying a just man, why would he add one more act of cruelty that the Jews had not asked for? Forty lashes, minus one, and
don't forget to count.
It is only obvious that the whole thing was a big farce. That the slander that the Jews had asked Pilate to crucify Jesus was interpolated as a pious forgery to clear the Romans of the guilt on the crucifixion of Jesus, and to blame the Jews, which became in History, a blatant act of Antisemitism.
If the interpolation was not added later by the Church, but by the gospel writers themselves, it was too careless a blunder to depict Pilate ordering the scourging of Jesus, when he had tried so hard to exonerate Jesus from the death sentence on the cross.
The bottom line is that, the only way to see the truth here is that the dramatic set up was so stupid that the whole thing is not worthy the paper it was written on.
Ben
.
The scourging was not asked for but was prophecied.
.
By his stripes we are healed. Is 53:5
.
Our righteous Messiah has departed from us; we are horror-stricken, and there is none to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he carries, and is wounded for our transgressions. He bears on his shoulder our sins to find pardon for our iniquities may we be healed by his stripes!
.
additional prayers for the Day of Atonement, A. Th. Philips, Machzor Leyom Kippur / Prayer Book for the Day of Atonement with English Translation; Revised and Enlarged Edition (New York: Hebrew Publishing Company, 1931), p. 239. The passage can also be found in, e.g., the 1937 edition. Also, Driver and Neubauer, p. 399.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#3 Jan 2, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
The scourging was not asked for but was prophecied.
.
By his stripes we are healed. Is 53:5
.
Our righteous Messiah has departed from us; we are horror-stricken, and there is none to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he carries, and is wounded for our transgressions. He bears on his shoulder our sins to find pardon for our iniquities may we be healed by his stripes!
.
additional prayers for the Day of Atonement, A. Th. Philips, Machzor Leyom Kippur / Prayer Book for the Day of Atonement with English Translation; Revised and Enlarged Edition (New York: Hebrew Publishing Company, 1931), p. 239. The passage can also be found in, e.g., the 1937 edition. Also, Driver and Neubauer, p. 399.
------

Isaiah was a prophet from the Tribe of Judah. He was the one saying
that the Suffering Servant in Israel who had departed from us, those of Judah. Ephraim, the Ten Tribes had been the Scapegoat chosen by lots to be sent away into the desert toward Assyria to atone for the sins of Judah, when the Lord had rejected the Ten of Joseph and confirmed Judah to remain as a lamp in Jerusalem.(Psalm
78:67-69; I Kings 11:36)

Ben

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#4 Jan 2, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
The scourging was not asked for but was prophecied.
.
By his stripes we are healed. Is 53:5
.
Our righteous Messiah has departed from us; we are horror-stricken, and there is none to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he carries, and is wounded for our transgressions. He bears on his shoulder our sins to find pardon for our iniquities may we be healed by his stripes!
.
additional prayers for the Day of Atonement, A. Th. Philips, Machzor Leyom Kippur / Prayer Book for the Day of Atonement with English Translation; Revised and Enlarged Edition (New York: Hebrew Publishing Company, 1931), p. 239. The passage can also be found in, e.g., the 1937 edition. Also, Driver and Neubauer, p. 399.
------

I missed to add into the previous post that the scourging of Jesus had absolutely nothing to do with the prophecies about the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 53. To scourge a candidate to the cross
was a Roman normal procedure in order to break down natural resistence to the act of crufixion per se. All Jews were scourged before being sent to the cross.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#5 Jan 2, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
Isaiah was a prophet from the Tribe of Judah. He was the one saying
that the Suffering Servant in Israel who had departed from us, those of Judah. Ephraim, the Ten Tribes had been the Scapegoat chosen by lots to be sent away into the desert toward Assyria to atone for the sins of Judah, when the Lord had rejected the Ten of Joseph and confirmed Judah to remain as a lamp in Jerusalem.(Psalm
78:67-69; I Kings 11:36)
Ben
.
That's not what the prayer depicts.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#6 Jan 2, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
I missed to add into the previous post that the scourging of Jesus had absolutely nothing to do with the prophecies about the Suffering Servant in Isaiah 53. To scourge a candidate to the cross
was a Roman normal procedure in order to break down natural resistence to the act of crufixion per se. All Jews were scourged before being sent to the cross.
Ben
.
Then you shouldn't have wondered why it happened or why it was not asked for if it was part and parcel of a crucifixtion.
Yes

Aldrich, MO

#7 Jan 2, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:

The bottom line is that, the only way to see the truth here is that the dramatic set up was so stupid that the whole thing is not worthy the paper it was written on.
Ben
The only thing that would not be worthy of paper written on is your utter total ignorance of the Word of The Lord which apperars in all your worthless posts.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#8 Jan 7, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Then you shouldn't have wondered why it happened or why it was not asked for if it was part and parcel of a crucifixtion.
----

I wondered because you speak of it as if Jesus was the only one to be scourged before crucifixion. BTW, Christians in general give off
the message that Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans when Josephus speaks of thousands of Jews crucified only in the First Century.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#9 Jan 7, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
----
I wondered because you speak of it as if Jesus was the only one to be scourged before crucifixion. BTW, Christians in general give off
the message that Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans when Josephus speaks of thousands of Jews crucified only in the First Century.
Ben
.
I challenge you to show one post in this or any other forum of me saying that Yeshua is the only Jew to have been scourged. I would even allow you the lattitude to point out one post where I said Yeshua was scourged exempting a response to you in this thread explaining why he was scourged.
.
I further challenge you to point out where X-tians in general so this.
.
Conclusion: Just another wild assertion on your part without substansive evidence.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#10 Jan 16, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I challenge you to show one post in this or any other forum of me saying that Yeshua is the only Jew to have been scourged. I would even allow you the lattitude to point out one post where I said Yeshua was scourged exempting a response to you in this thread explaining why he was scourged.
.
I further challenge you to point out where X-tians in general so this.
.
Conclusion: Just another wild assertion on your part without substansive evidence.
---------

I said and hold unto it that Christians in general give off the message "by implying" perhaps this is the expression I missed to add, that Jesus was the only Jew scourged and crucified by the Romans. You do imply with your exaggeration of Jesus' suffering as if he was the only one. If you go back through all your posts, the implication is present in almost all of them. It is like to pick up a single Jew from the Holocaust and speak only of what he went through as if six million of them were not there.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#11 Jan 17, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
---------
I said and hold unto it that Christians in general give off the message "by implying" perhaps this is the expression I missed to add, that Jesus was the only Jew scourged and crucified by the Romans. You do imply with your exaggeration of Jesus' suffering as if he was the only one. If you go back through all your posts, the implication is present in almost all of them. It is like to pick up a single Jew from the Holocaust and speak only of what he went through as if six million of them were not there.
Ben
.
Well you had the opportunity to copy and paste from any post I have made but as usual you don't document your assertion.
.
Secondly how did I exagerate Yeshua's suffering?
.
Thirdly no Jew, to my knowledge, allowed himself to be a sacrifice for the sins of mankind and proved it by resurrecting himself from the dead.
.
So I am not implying Yeshua is unique...I am stating it.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#12 Jan 19, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Well you had the opportunity to copy and paste from any post I have made but as usual you don't document your assertion.
.
Secondly how did I exagerate Yeshua's suffering?
.
Thirdly no Jew, to my knowledge, allowed himself to be a sacrifice for the sins of mankind and proved it by resurrecting himself from the dead.
.
So I am not implying Yeshua is unique...I am stating it.
---------

You wish you could document your assertions as I do. Not only you but all Christians speak of Jesus crucifixion as if he was the only
Jew to have been crucified by the Romans. Please, don't deny that!

There was no eyewitness at that Jesus ever resurrected besides the fact that Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection. Evidence? Read Luke 24:11. When the women took the news about Jesus' resurrection to the disciples, they ALL refused to believe them by saying that they were talking nonsense with their idle tale. It proves that Jesus never told them anything about such a thing as resurrection. This idea was fabricated by Paul as he revealed to his disciple Timothy that Jesus' resurrection was all according to his, Paul's gospel. So, Paul made up the idea which was never Jewish in the first place.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#13 Jan 19, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
---------
You wish you could document your assertions as I do. Not only you but all Christians speak of Jesus crucifixion as if he was the only
Jew to have been crucified by the Romans. Please, don't deny that!
There was no eyewitness at that Jesus ever resurrected besides the fact that Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection. Evidence? Read Luke 24:11. When the women took the news about Jesus' resurrection to the disciples, they ALL refused to believe them by saying that they were talking nonsense with their idle tale. It proves that Jesus never told them anything about such a thing as resurrection. This idea was fabricated by Paul as he revealed to his disciple Timothy that Jesus' resurrection was all according to his, Paul's gospel. So, Paul made up the idea which was never Jewish in the first place.
.
Firstly you are trying to construct a strawman argument with the statement Christians talk as if no Jew was ever crucified. No one has said that and as I pointed out to you, no Jew has died for sin and resurrected himself except Yeshua.
.
Secondly there are multiple witnesses of the resurrection. We have Matthew, Mark, John, Peter in addition to Paul who write that they witnessed the ressurected Messiah. What about all those who didn't write or their writings were lost? What about non cannonical writing such as the gospel of Thomas or Barnabas? There is more than enough witnesses to fulfill the requirements of the law.
.
Thirdly any Jew who doesn't believe in the resurrection is cut off from his people according to Maimonides. Jews all over the world recite the creed.
.
The words from your own hand condemn you as an apostate.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#14 Jan 21, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Firstly you are trying to construct a strawman argument with the statement Christians talk as if no Jew was ever crucified. No one has said that and as I pointed out to you, no Jew has died for sin and resurrected himself except Yeshua.
.
Secondly there are multiple witnesses of the resurrection. We have Matthew, Mark, John, Peter in addition to Paul who write that they witnessed the ressurected Messiah. What about all those who didn't write or their writings were lost? What about non cannonical writing such as the gospel of Thomas or Barnabas? There is more than enough witnesses to fulfill the requirements of the law.
.
Thirdly any Jew who doesn't believe in the resurrection is cut off from his people according to Maimonides. Jews all over the world recite the creed.
.
The words from your own hand condemn you as an apostate.
------

Prove it to me that Yshua resurrected. You can't. And to prove that Yeshua resurrected, I asked for an eyewitness and not a witness. This proves that you either can't focus on what you are reading or you are trying to mislead me into thinking that I asked for a witness and not eyewitness. See my previous post and see that you are distorting the meaning of an eyewitness with a witness. There is a big difference. What you are doing is not fair.

I don't know what creed you are talking about which is discussed by Jews. We are discussing the NT and not midrashim. So, use the NT
and the Tanach to defend your assertions.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#15 Jan 21, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
Prove it to me that Yshua resurrected. You can't. And to prove that Yeshua resurrected, I asked for an eyewitness and not a witness. This proves that you either can't focus on what you are reading or you are trying to mislead me into thinking that I asked for a witness and not eyewitness. See my previous post and see that you are distorting the meaning of an eyewitness with a witness. There is a big difference. What you are doing is not fair.
I don't know what creed you are talking about which is discussed by Jews. We are discussing the NT and not midrashim. So, use the NT
and the Tanach to defend your assertions.
Ben
.
You are playing with words, if you choose no to believe the written testimony of at least five Jews that they witnesses themselves the Messiah after he was dead and buried, then that is your perogative but accoding to the scripture the matter is established. Deu 19:15
.
Secondly you have asked for a NT or TNK reference to defend my assertion but what reference have you provided to defend your assertion "Jews don't believe in the resurrection"? None.
.
Thirdly you should at least know the TNK's teaching on the resurrection. Dan 12:2. Here are multiple NT verses: Luk 14:14, Luk 20:36, Joh 5:29, Joh 11:24, Act 23:8, Act 24:15, Rom 6:5, Rev 20:5.
.
Lastly since we are discussing whether Jews believe in the resurrection, then any Jewish document should be allowed as evidence.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#16 Jan 25, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
You are playing with words, if you choose no to believe the written testimony of at least five Jews that they witnesses themselves the Messiah after he was dead and buried, then that is your perogative but accoding to the scripture the matter is established. Deu 19:15
.
Secondly you have asked for a NT or TNK reference to defend my assertion but what reference have you provided to defend your assertion "Jews don't believe in the resurrection"? None.
.
Thirdly you should at least know the TNK's teaching on the resurrection. Dan 12:2. Here are multiple NT verses: Luk 14:14, Luk 20:36, Joh 5:29, Joh 11:24, Act 23:8, Act 24:15, Rom 6:5, Rev 20:5.
.
Lastly since we are discussing whether Jews believe in the resurrection, then any Jewish document should be allowed as evidence.
------

Read Acts 1:3. Luke says that Jesus appeared to his disciple during 40 days after his passion (or suffering) To appear alive after one's passion or suffering does not mean even that he died; let alone that he resurrected. And to see Jesus alive after the fact, is no eyewitness of the fact.

Yes, Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection. Resurrection for us is according to Ezekiel 37:12. Return from the graves of the nations and back to the Land of Israel.

Daniel 12:2 has absolutely nothing to do with bodily resurrection.
Whenever we are in exile and the exile is over, those who return to the Land of Israel are considered by Daniel as awaken to live forever in the Land of the living. Those who choose to remain in exile are compared to a slave whose freedom is given and he prefers
to continue serving his master. Therefore, Daniel consider them in disgrace and living in everlasting horror.

Nothing can be taken as evidence in the case of bodily resurrection
but the Tanach. But I'll give you the benefit of doubt. Go ahead and produce a learned Jewish evidence for bodily resurrection. I'll
tell you what you seem not to understand.

Ben

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