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Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#21 Dec 26, 2012
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
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No, I am not suggesting that the Centurion did the actual work of the crucifixion, but those soldiers were not before Pilate when the Centurior was called to check if Jesus was dead already. The Centurion was alone.
Who was an eyewitness that Jesus resurrected. Show me one and you have made a Christian out of me. Even the angel reported by Matthew was cheated out of being an eyewitness because when he removed the tombstone the tomb was empty. Now, how it got empty is the issue at hand.
If I appeal to the gospels as historical proofs of what is said somewhere else within the gospels, the name is contradictions.
Ben
.
And what would happen to the centurian and all the soldiers party to the crucifixtion when it got out that Yeshua didn't really die, he was bribed out of an execution? They would all pay with their lives. And you expect us to believe that all those soldiers would have entered into a conspiracy knowing that death awaited them once it became known they failed in their duty? Only someone not wanting to admit to the death of Yeshua and his resurrection (as he foretold) would believe that.
.
Firstly you just can't become a Christian, you have to respond to the call of G-d which I don't see on your life. He will have mercy on whom he will, and I don't see him offering it to one who believes nothing done by G-d is miraclulous.
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Secondly you reject the testimony of the men who were there, so a priori you are unable to receive the truth.
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Lastly you ask a good question...how did the tomb become empty? Since Yeshua said he would raise himself from the dead (a feat never done before or since) and that the religious leaders wanted the tomb secured so they could display his body after the three day period he foretold his resurrection would take placwe in, how did they fail in this endeavor?

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#22 Dec 29, 2012
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
And what would happen to the centurian and all the soldiers party to the crucifixtion when it got out that Yeshua didn't really die, he was bribed out of an execution? They would all pay with their lives. And you expect us to believe that all those soldiers would have entered into a conspiracy knowing that death awaited them once it became known they failed in their duty? Only someone not wanting to admit to the death of Yeshua and his resurrection (as he foretold) would believe that.
.
Firstly you just can't become a Christian, you have to respond to the call of G-d which I don't see on your life. He will have mercy on whom he will, and I don't see him offering it to one who believes nothing done by G-d is miraclulous.
.
Secondly you reject the testimony of the men who were there, so a priori you are unable to receive the truth.
.
Lastly you ask a good question...how did the tomb become empty? Since Yeshua said he would raise himself from the dead (a feat never done before or since) and that the religious leaders wanted the tomb secured so they could display his body after the three day period he foretold his resurrection would take placwe in, how did they fail in this endeavor?
-----

Nothing would have happened to the soldiers if the Centurion was aware and in charge of what went on between him and Joseph of Arimathea.

Jesus admitted nothin himself. He was a Jewish man. Jews don't believe in bodily resurrection. His resurrection was fabricated by Paul and, believe it or not, Paul never made any secret about it. He confessed it himself in a letter to his disciple Timothy.
(2 Tim. 2:8) He said that Jesus resurrected according to his, Paul's gospel. It means that there was another gospel at the time in whose agenda these things about Jesus did not figure.

You say I am unable to receive the Truth. Do you even know what the Truth is? Read John 17:17. Jesus himself said that the Truth is the Word of God which, according to Psalm 147:19,20 was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. I have received the Truth my friend. Now, it is your turn. Make yourself available.

Yes, I have read the NT. The gospel writers report more than several times that Jesus would raise himself from the tomb. Great! When the women brought the news that he had resurrected, all his disciples did not believe them and said that they were speaking nonsense and an idle tale.(Luke 24:10,11) Now, how do you explain that? Somebody must be lying here because Jesus' disciples gave off
the evidence that they had never heard him say such an unJewish myth. Then, later we found out that it was all in the mind of Paul.
(2 Tim. 2:8)

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#23 Dec 29, 2012
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
-----
Jesus admitted nothin himself. He was a Jewish man. Jews don't believe in bodily resurrection. His resurrection was fabricated by Paul and, believe it or not, Paul never made any secret about it. He confessed it himself in a letter to his disciple Timothy.
(2 Tim. 2:8) He said that Jesus resurrected according to his, Paul's gospel. It means that there was another gospel at the time in whose agenda these things about Jesus did not figure.
You say I am unable to receive the Truth. Do you even know what the Truth is? Read John 17:17. Jesus himself said that the Truth is the Word of God which, according to Psalm 147:19,20 was given to Israel only and to no other people on earth. I have received the Truth my friend. Now, it is your turn. Make yourself available.
Somebody must be lying here because Jesus' disciples gave off
the evidence that they had never heard him say such an unJewish myth. Then, later we found out that it was all in the mind of Paul.
(2 Tim. 2:8)
Ben
.
<QUOTED TEXT>
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Nothing would have happened to the soldiers if the Centurion was aware and in charge of what went on between him and Joseph of Arimathea.
.
You are living in a fantasy. Even in today's society of not punishing anyone for their failures, they would be repercussions for losing a prisioner.
.
<quoted text>
Jesus admitted nothin himself. He was a Jewish man. Jews don't believe in bodily resurrection.
.
Only Jews which have no part in the world to come don't believe in the ressurection.(Maimonides 13th principle of faith)
.
<quoted text>
.
Yes, I have read the NT. The gospel writers report more than several times that Jesus would raise himself from the tomb. Great! When the women brought the news that he had resurrected, all his disciples did not believe them and said that they were speaking nonsense and an idle tale.(Luke 24:10,11) Now, how do you explain that?
.
The answer is simple. Seeing is believing.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#24 Dec 29, 2012
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>

You are living in a fantasy. Even in today's society of not punishing anyone for their failures, they would be repercussions for losing a prisioner.

Only Jews which have no part in the world to come don't believe in the ressurection.(Maimonides 13th principle of faith)

The answer is simple. Seeing is believing.
----------

They did not lose a prisoner. For all concerned, Jesus was dead and buried. That was enough for Pilate. The rest was religion.

We all have part in the world to come, Jews as well as Gentiles. The world to come is the grave my friend. And the 13th principle of faith is not about bodily resurrection but about metaphorical resurrection, according to Ezekiel 37:12) From the graves of exile and back to the Land of Israel. Read it, please.

"Seeing is believing!" What do you mean that I have not read the NT? How about the evidence that I quote the NT much more than you do? Where do you think I my knowledge of it if I have not read it?

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#25 Dec 31, 2012
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
----------
They did not lose a prisoner. For all concerned, Jesus was dead and buried. That was enough for Pilate. The rest was religion.
We all have part in the world to come, Jews as well as Gentiles. The world to come is the grave my friend. And the 13th principle of faith is not about bodily resurrection but about metaphorical resurrection, according to Ezekiel 37:12) From the graves of exile and back to the Land of Israel. Read it, please.
"Seeing is believing!" What do you mean that I have not read the NT? How about the evidence that I quote the NT much more than you do? Where do you think I my knowledge of it if I have not read it?
Ben
.
It was your contention that he wasn't dead, and if that is the case then they did lose a prisoner.
.
The disciples believed because they witnessed the resurrected Messiah.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#26 Jan 2, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
It was your contention that he wasn't dead, and if that is the case then they did lose a prisoner.
.
The disciples believed because they witnessed the resurrected Messiah.
------

There was absolutely no eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus. The truth is that when the tombstone was removed the tomb was empty. How and when it got empty is the issue to be studied. If there is no way how, the only option is to believe by faith. The disciples did not believe when they were informed that Jesus had resurrected. Read Luke 24:11. They all took the news as an idle
tale of nonsense. It means that Jesus never told them anything about such an idea. Only Paul confessed later to his disciple Timothy that Jesus had resurrected according to his - Paul's - gospel.(2 Tim. 2:8) Hey my friend, there is a lot about this story that need a lot of explaining.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#27 Jan 2, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
There was absolutely no eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus. The truth is that when the tombstone was removed the tomb was empty. How and when it got empty is the issue to be studied. If there is no way how, the only option is to believe by faith. The disciples did not believe when they were informed that Jesus had resurrected. Read Luke 24:11. They all took the news as an idle
tale of nonsense. It means that Jesus never told them anything about such an idea. Only Paul confessed later to his disciple Timothy that Jesus had resurrected according to his - Paul's - gospel.(2 Tim. 2:8) Hey my friend, there is a lot about this story that need a lot of explaining.
Ben
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I didn't say anyone witnessed the resurrection, what I said was his disciples witnessed a resurrected Messiah.
.
As to the expectation the Messiah would be crucified we have this:
In Yalkut (vol. ii. par. 620, p. 90 a, line 12 from the bottom), we have the following remarkable simile on the words,'against God, and His Messiah,' likening them to a robber who stands defiantly behind the palace of the king, and says, If I shall find the son of the king, I shall lay hold on him, and crucify him, and kill him with a cruel death.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#28 Jan 7, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I didn't say anyone witnessed the resurrection, what I said was his disciples witnessed a resurrected Messiah.
.
As to the expectation the Messiah would be crucified we have this:
In Yalkut (vol. ii. par. 620, p. 90 a, line 12 from the bottom), we have the following remarkable simile on the words,'against God, and His Messiah,' likening them to a robber who stands defiantly behind the palace of the king, and says, If I shall find the son of the king, I shall lay hold on him, and crucify him, and kill him with a cruel death.
-----

The reference in Yalkut to the crucified Messiah has nothing at all
to do with Jesus but to the collective Messiah in the People of Israel that is the anointed of the Lord spoken of in Habakkuk 3:13.
"The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one.
Again, Jesus was not the only Jew to be crucified. Thousands were. So, you have to think of the People and not of the individual. Besides, worse than crucifixion is how six million Jews were gassed by the Nazis.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#29 Jan 7, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
-----
The reference in Yalkut to the crucified Messiah has nothing at all
to do with Jesus but to the collective Messiah in the People of Israel that is the anointed of the Lord spoken of in Habakkuk 3:13.
"The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one.
Again, Jesus was not the only Jew to be crucified. Thousands were. So, you have to think of the People and not of the individual. Besides, worse than crucifixion is how six million Jews were gassed by the Nazis.
Ben
.
Of course it is the crucifixtion of an individual. I challenge you to find me one quote of the crucifixtion of a collective Israel in the midrashim. All the older midrash were of an individual. Jews are still expecting an individual to be the Messiah.
.
We can find three ELS sequences of Yeshua in this chapter but there is no ELS of Israel in the entire book. In fact Israel is not even found in the entire book in the surface text.
.
Being that the number of Jews crucified in history compared to the entire population is certainly less than 1%, why would I look to a collective when this is so small a sample of Jews who have died?

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#30 Feb 2, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Of course it is the crucifixtion of an individual. I challenge you to find me one quote of the crucifixtion of a collective Israel in the midrashim. All the older midrash were of an individual. Jews are still expecting an individual to be the Messiah.
.
We can find three ELS sequences of Yeshua in this chapter but there is no ELS of Israel in the entire book. In fact Israel is not even found in the entire book in the surface text.
.
Being that the number of Jews crucified in history compared to the entire population is certainly less than 1%, why would I look to a collective when this is so small a sample of Jews who have died?
----------

Again, you show lack of understanding for being too literal with your interpretations of the Scriptures. Millions of Jews have been
murdered by Christianity throughout History. It does not mean that all of them were crucified. Perhaps only a few thousands were literally crucified. The idea underlined is to show how Jews have been persecuted by other peoples through pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and lately the Holocaust. That's why all these atrocities must be reconsidered in the collective context and not on an individual basis which seems to be a promotion of the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#31 Feb 3, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
----------
Again, you show lack of understanding for being too literal with your interpretations of the Scriptures. Millions of Jews have been
murdered by Christianity throughout History. It does not mean that all of them were crucified. Perhaps only a few thousands were literally crucified. The idea underlined is to show how Jews have been persecuted by other peoples through pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and lately the Holocaust. That's why all these atrocities must be reconsidered in the collective context and not on an individual basis which seems to be a promotion of the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.
Ben
.
Alegorical meanings can be made of just about any text. That is why the traditional Jewish understanding is that an alegorical meanng will never contradict the pashat.
.
Isaiah paints us a picture of the Messiah as:
Being despised and WE not valuing him. The WE includes Isaiah which tells is this passage is referring to Israel as the WE.
.
He bears OUR sins, Israel cannot bear the sins of Israel. A vicarious sacrifice is needed. Just as the Yom Kippur goat carried the sins of Israel into the wilderness, Messiah bears our sins as the midrashim teach us.
.
He is pierced for OUR transgressions and crushed for OUR iniquiites.
.
He was taken from prison and from justice. Israel is punished for their inquities, they are receiving justice for their sins. But the Messiah fulfills this literally and allegorically.
.
He is cut off from the land of the living because of the trespass of MY people. If the trespass of MY people is the Goyim, then Israel is NOT his people.
.
He had done no violence, this is obviously NOT Israel as violence is apparent right from the beginning as the sons of Israel would have killed Joseph if not for Reuben. Before this they killed the population of Shechem. I could go on and on of the violence of Israel especially to the prophets of the Lord.
.
The servant of this passage offers his life as a guilt offering. Israel has never offered itself as a guilt offering.
.
No deceit was in his mouth. This can hardly be a characteristic of Israel. Only the zedek-yesod of Israel could possibly qualify for this. This is hardly a collective but a minority at best as Rashi has told us.
.
Lastly the sod tells us this is Yeshua as a sequence of letters in this passage starting with the yud in "mi" (who shall consider) and counting every 20 letters to form the phrase yud-mem-shin-ayin-vav-shin-yud . Yeshua shemi (Yeshua is my name).

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#32 Feb 4, 2013
M114: Isaiah paints us a picture of the Messiah as: Being despised and WE not valuing him. The WE includes Isaiah which tells is this passage is referring to Israel as the WE.

Ben: Israel, the Kingdom of the North was always spiritually despised by Judah in the South. Isaiah was the one bringing his prophetical message to the North. Therefore, "WE" means Isaiah speaking for Judah.(Isa. 6:8)

M114: He bears OUR sins, Israel cannot bear the sins of Israel. A vicarious sacrifice is needed. Just as the Yom Kippur goat carried the sins of Israel into the wilderness, Messiah bears our sins as the midrashim teach us.

Ben: Israel (Ephraim) bore the sins of Judah. A people could bear the sins of another people as it had been prophesied with regards to the Scapegoat sent into the desert towards the East but an individual could never bear the sins of another.(Jer. 31:30)

M114: He is pierced for OUR transgressions and crushed for OUR iniquiites.

Ben: That's exactly what happened to Israel when it was permanently
rejected by God in favor of Judah who was confirmed to remain as God's People.(Psalm 78:67-69)

M114: He was taken from prison and from justice. Israel is punished for their inquities, they are receiving justice for their sins. But the Messiah fulfills this literally and allegorically.

Ben: Again, Replacement Theology. How about the other thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans? How about the millions of Jews murdered by the Nazis? Why only one Jew had to be chosen, because you are a Christian? Hence, preconceived notions.

M114: He is cut off from the land of the living because of the trespass of MY people. If the trespass of MY people is the Goyim, then Israel is NOT his people.

Ben: Who is speaking here? Isaiah. Who was Isiah's People? Judah. So, Israel was cut off from the Land of Israel and permanently sent to exile because of the sins of Judah.

M114: He had done no violence, this is obviously NOT Israel as violence is apparent right from the beginning as the sons of Israel would have killed Joseph if not for Reuben. Before this they killed the population of Shechem. I could go on and on of the violence of Israel especially to the prophets of the Lord.

Ben: Judah was the one who had rejected God's Covenant at the time of Ahaz and established one with Assyria.(2 Kings 16:1-18) Judah became doomed to die but because of God's promise to David that Judah would remain as a lamp in Jerusalem forever, Israel had to go
instead as the scapegoat.(I Kings 11:36)

M114: The servant of this passage offers his life as a guilt offering. Israel has never offered itself as a guilt offering.

Ben: Because you are too literal. Without understanding, Israel had
to go in silence. It means Israel went willingly. There was no willingness in Jesus to die. He went to the cross against his will
as he prayed three times not to. Read about the Gethsemane.

M114: No deceit was in his mouth. This can hardly be a characteristic of Israel. Only the zedek-yesod of Israel could possibly qualify for this. This is hardly a collective but a minority at best as Rashi has told us.

Ben: Rashi was all the time in favor of the collective Messiah.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#33 Feb 4, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
.
quoted text> Ben: Israel (Ephraim) bore the sins of Judah. A people could bear the sins of another people as it had been prophesied with regards to the Scapegoat sent into the desert towards the East but an individual could never bear the sins of another.(Jer. 31:30)
.
The motif of the scapegoat doesn't fit a collective, if G-d had required a hers of goats you would have a better case, but ant sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish. Here's how this same prophet speaking for G-d has described the nation Israel:
Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isa 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
This would never be acceptable as an offering to G-d.
.
<quoted text> How about the other thousands of Jews crucified by the Romans? How about the millions of Jews murdered by the Nazis? Why only one Jew had to be chosen, because you are a Christian?
.
To be an offering acceptable to G-d one needed to be without blemish, something that every Jew who is aware of his shortcomings before G-d would admit to. As nice as the people were who were murdered by the Nazis, they could not take away the sins they had commited. This is why there was a sacrifice every year while the temple existed to atone for the sins of the people. As the scapegoat carried the sins of the people, Messiah bore our sins as the tradition tells us.
.
Only one was needed because as G-d incarnate this "everlasting foundation" was enough for every sin ever/will be commited.
.
<quoted text> Ben: Judah was the one who had rejected God's Covenant at the time of Ahaz and established one with Assyria.(2 Kings 16:1-18) Judah became doomed to die but because of God's promise to David that Judah would remain as a lamp in Jerusalem forever, Israel had to go instead as the scapegoat.(I Kings 11:36)
.
This doesn't answer the objection that Israel doesn't meet the requirement of this servant because of the violence commited from the very beginning to the present day. Anywhere Israel was scattered to they are violent not because they are Israel, but because they suffer from the same weakness ALL men have, which is that they cannot obey G-d.
Psa 53:2 (53:3) God looked forth from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any man of understanding, that did seek after God.
Psa 53:3 (53:4) Every one of them is unclean, they are together become impure; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
.
Psa 51:5 (51:7) Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
.
<quoted text> He went to the cross against his will
as he prayed three times not to. Read about the Gethsemane.
.
Any honest reading of the text will show that knowing the suffering he was to endure the Messiah asked if there was another way to redeem Israel, but the inference was no there wasn't any other way, so the Messiah submitted to the will of the Father.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
.
You didn't show where Israel qualifies as having done no violence.
.
You haven't shown where Israel qualifies as having no deceit.
.
You haven't shown where Rashi agrees with you about a collective Messiah.
.
Conclusion: even you allegorizing of the text is lacking in Isarel qualifying as the servant in this passage. Israel is eliminated as a possibility on these grounds:
1. Israel by G-d's description is unfit to qualify as an offering.
2. Israel doesn't meet the having done no violence clause.
3. Israel doesn't meet no deceit clause.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#34 Feb 7, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:

M114: The motif of the scapegoat doesn't fit a collective, if G-d had required a hers of goats you would have a better case, but ant sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish.

Ben: Israel aka Ephraim was without spot or blemish of the sins she died for because they were the sins of Judah. "The virgin Israel is fallen" said Amos in 5:2. That's when Israel was sent into the desert as a scapegoat to redeem Judah from the doom.(Isa. 9:8) This was the fulfillment by lots from Leviticus 16:10. But Isaiah made sure to Judah that they should never forget that the Lord put Israel away for the sins of Judah, the son.(Isa. 50:1)

M114: This is why there was a sacrifice every year while the temple existed to atone for the sins of the people. As the scapegoat carried the sins of the people, Messiah bore our sins as
the tradition tells us.

Ben: Yes, "While the temple existed." For 70 years of exile in Babylon, there was no Temple and not a single sacrifice was offered
Nevertheless, the sin that had caused the exile had been forgiven, and the transgression had ended. How did that happen? This is evidence that the reason for animal sacrifices was not redemption
but a simile for Israel as the scapegoat.(Dan. 9:24)

M114: Only one was needed because as G-d incarnate this "everlasting foundation" was enough for every sin ever/will be commited.

Ben: This is Greek Mythology for the myth of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. There is no such a thing in Judaism.

M114: Anywhere Israel was scattered to they are violent not because they are Israel, but because they suffer from the same weakness ALL men have, which is that they cannot obey G-d.

Ben: Nevertheless, of the other nations the Lord will eventually make an end of them but of Israel He will only chastise us as we deserve.

M114: Any honest reading of the text will show that knowing the
suffering he was to endure the Messiah asked if there was another way to redeem Israel, but the inference was no there wasn't any other way, so the Messiah submitted to the will of the Father.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

Ben: That's no answer to my question. The point is that it was not Jesus' will to die on the cross for no one. "Let Thy will be done; NOT MINE." Not my will. How is that so hard to understand?

M114: You didn't show where Israel qualifies as having done no violence.

Ben: I showed you but you want to hear only what pleases your ears.
Israel dies for the sins of Judah.(Isa. 53:9; 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21) Isaiah mentions Israel by name as the Suffering Servant. And Habakkuk mentions God's People as the Anointed one of the Lord.(Hab. 3:13)

M114: You haven't shown where Israel qualifies as having no deceit.

Ben: Same as above.

M114: You haven't shown where Rashi agrees with you about a collective Messiah.

Ben: Google Rashi and Israel as the Messiah.

M114: Conclusion: even you allegorizing of the text is lacking in Isarel qualifying as the servant in this passage. Israel is eliminated as a possibility on these grounds:
1. Israel by G-d's description is unfit to qualify as an offering.
2. Israel doesn't meet the having done no violence clause.
3. Israel doesn't meet no deceit clause.

Ben: Because of your preconceived notions. To qualify it has to be according to the Hellenistic concept of Paul. Too bad because we are dealing with Jesus, a Jewish man whose Faith was Judaism and not Hellenistim.

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