Five Evidences that Jesus Could Have Survived the Cross

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#1
Sep 26, 2012
 
FIVE EVIDENCES THAT JESUS COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE CROSS

Before presenting here the following evidences that Jesus could have survived the cross, I take it as my duty to clarify my point, that I am not affirming that Jesus survived the cross, but that he could have. In other words, to say that Jesus died on the cross is not 100% safe to assert. It is just one more item of faith, with a high probability to have been true.

1 - According to Josephus, a famous Jewish Historian of the First Century, "It was not uncommon for crucifieds to linger on their crosses, passing out and back up to three or four days till death would eventually catch up on them." Jesus was removed from his cross after only a few hours.

2 - According to Mark 15:44, when Joseph of Arimathea went to Pilate for permission to remove Jesus from the cross for burial, Pilate, an expert in the crufixion of thousands of Jews, "Was deeply concrned and surprised that Jesus had died so soon. Therefore, he summoned the Centurion to verify." Considering that the Roman soldiers were highly corrupt and that Joseph was quite a rich man in Israel, God knows the size of a possible bribe which affected the reply of the Centurion to Pilate that Jesus was already dead.

3 - According to Mark 16:1, when that Sabbath was over, which in Israel is at sunset, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to Jesus' tomb to anoint his body, when they were surprised to see that the tombstone was removed and the tomb was empty. According to Mat. 28:2, there was an earthquake, an angel came down, removed the tombstone and became equally surprised that the tomb was indeed empty. Never mind the three days and three nights of Mat. 12:40.

4 - According to John 19:39, Nicodemus, another rich man in Israel, had brought along about 100 pounds of medication to help Joseph take care of Jesus. It is highly possible that Joseph laid Jesus in his walk-in tomb for an hour or two to prevent unnecessary onlookers and returned later with his men to remove Jesus unto another safer place to mend his wounds.

5 - According to Acts 1:3, Luke said that, "After his suffering, aka, passion, Jesus appeared to his disciples for 40 days with many convincing proofs that he was alive, in flesh and bone, eating and driking with his disciples to prove he was not dead.(Luke 24:42,43) Focus that Luke said that Jesus appeared after his suffering (passion) and not after his death. And, if we consider resurrection here, the evidence goes way out of propotion because, to eat and drink after resurretion just as one used to before death, brings down the whole concept of the Pauline gospel of spiritual body.(I Cor. 15:35-44)

Ben
Graham

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#2
Sep 26, 2012
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
FIVE EVIDENCES THAT JESUS COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE CROSS
.
1. Although men may survive for days during a crucifixtion, none have been known to survive when speared in the heart, which evidence you seem to have overlooked.
.
2. It is impossible to know whether soldiers could have been bribed to allow Yeshua to survive the cross, but we know that a Roman guard is responsible for his charge. If the man escapes the guard forfeits his life. It is also certain there were more than one soldier involved. The more men involved the harder it would become to form a conspiracy which would certainly result in their deaths once it became known Yeshua had escaped the sentence of a Roman govenor. Somehow I don't think there would have been enough money to effect this escape. Do you have any historical evidence that this happened. The Jews certainly more rich than Joseph of Arimethea were unable to save R. Akiva from Roman justice.
.
3. You make no point here but to the reference of 3 days and nights, Thursday at 3 PM to Sunday at 5 Am is 3 days and 3 nights.
.
4. This scenario is all based upon getting a live Yeshua off the cross which hasn't been shown to happen as it contradicts the testimony we have. It also is without historical precedence and is incredible to believe. Lastly there is no reference to Yeshua dying after this time. Certainly as worshipped as he was his grave would have become a site for prayers to be offered as in other Jewish tzadiks.
.
5a. Whether Luke chose to use the suffering as a reference point rather than his death is the perogative of the author. In no way would this be evidence that he didn't die especially since Luke says he gave up the ghost which means his spirit left him. Luk 23:46
.
5b There is nothing in 1 Cor 15 that would indicate a spiritual body could not eat and drink as we already have evidence a spiritual body can eat and drink as G-d himself ate with Abraham Gen 18. The angels also ate which are spiritual bodies. Lastly Paul affirms in the passage you cite that Yeshua rose from the dead.

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#3
Oct 1, 2012
 
Graham wrote:
<quoted text>
.
1. Although men may survive for days during a crucifixtion, none have been known to survive when speared in the heart, which evidence you seem to have overlooked.
.
---------

1. I could not have overlooked the spear-piercing. It just did not happen. It was not a Roman policy to spear crucifieds to check for dead bodies. Josephus said that thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans only in the First Century. Josephus was never told of anyone who was spear-pieced. The interpolation was added from plagiarizing Isaiah 53:5 with the intent to enhance Jesus as the one whom Isaiah was pointing to. Therefore, pious forgery into the text.

Ben

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#4
Oct 1, 2012
 
Graham wrote:
<quoted text>

2. It is impossible to know whether soldiers could have been bribed to allow Yeshua to survive the cross, but we know that a Roman guard is responsible for his charge. If the man escapes the guard forfeits his life. It is also certain there were more than one soldier involved. The more men involved the harder it would become to form a conspiracy which would certainly result in their deaths once it became known Yeshua had escaped the sentence of a Roman govenor. Somehow I don't think there would have been enough money to effect this escape. Do you have any historical evidence that this happened. The Jews certainly more rich than Joseph of Arimethea were unable to save R. Akiva from Roman justice.
--------

The Centurion was alone and the only one to come when Pilate summoned him to verify if Jesus was indeed dead. That alone rules out your opinion that there were more men involved. In the crucifixion, yes, but not in the verification. And about your question if I have any historical evidence that Jesus survived the cross, we all, who study the NT have the evidence. According to Luke in Acts 1:3, after the cross, Jesus appeared for 40 days to his disciples with "convicing evidences" that he was alive, in flesh and bone, eating and drinking just as he used to before the cross. Besides, Luke reports that it was "after" his passion or sufferings. After one's passion and suffering is no proof that one died; let alone that he ever resurrected. If Luke is to be believed, you have the historical evidence that Jesus did survive the cross.

Ben

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#5
Oct 1, 2012
 
Graham wrote:
<quoted text>

3. You make no point here but to the reference of 3 days and nights, Thursday at 3 PM to Sunday at 5 Am is 3 days and 3 nights.
------

The day you present as Jesus on the cross at 3 PM was not Thursday but Friday. Evidence? No problem. Read Mat. 27:62. "The next day, the one following the Day of Preparation..." The Day of Preparation
according to Judaism is the 6th day, aka, Friday. True that the day
prior to the day of Passover was a day of preparation, but not the weakly Day of Preparation. Therefore, the next day was the Sabbath.

See also John 19:31. "Since it was the Preparation Day, the Jews did not want to have the bodies left on the cross during the Sabbath; for "that Sabbath" happened to be a solemn feast day. Reference here made to the Passover which happened to have fallen on the Sabbath that year. Therefore, no one can find more than two days and two nights, if we are to assume that he stayed in the tomb
till the tombstone was removed and the tomb was found empty.

The reality, IMHO, is that Jesus did not spend more than an hour or two in his walk-in tomb until Joseph of Arimathea removed him from there to a safer place where he could take care of his wounds with the help of Nicodemus who brought about 100 pounds of medications as his share in the care of Jesus.(John 19:39)

Ben

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#6
Oct 1, 2012
 
Graham wrote:
<quoted text>

4. This scenario is all based upon getting a live Yeshua off the cross which hasn't been shown to happen as it contradicts the testimony we have. It also is without historical precedence and is incredible to believe. Lastly there is no reference to Yeshua dying after this time. Certainly as worshipped as he was his grave would have become a site for prayers to be offered as in other Jewish tzadiks.
--------

The testimony we have is from the NT which is loaded with contradictions. That's why it contradicts the testimony you have. It is incredible to believe all right, but only by those moved by Christian preconceived notions. The logic is that Jesus had to leave Israel in order not to compromise the lives of Joseph of Arimathea, Mary Magdalene and his own from going back to the cross.
Most definitely, secret was required of his disciples about his whereabouts. Yes, the graves of Jewish tzadiks used to be sites of
prayers. The supposed-to-have-been grave of Jesus in Jerusalem is also used by Christians as a site for worshipping. I have been there twice as an eyewitness to what I am talking about.

Ben

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#7
Oct 1, 2012
 
Graham wrote:
<quoted text>

5a. Whether Luke chose to use the suffering as a reference point rather than his death is the perogative of the author. In no way would this be evidence that he didn't die especially since Luke says he gave up the ghost which means his spirit left him. Luk 23:46
----------

See what I mean by contradictions? One can see them without going from a gospel to another. "The prehogative of the author?" So, he is free to say something in a page and the opposite in another and still be justified at what he says? Understand now what I mean by Christian preconceived notions? That's what faith is all about. Of course, later on, God knows when, Jesus eventually gave up the ghost and died. But nobody knows when, how, and why.

Ben

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#8
Oct 1, 2012
 
Graham wrote:
<quoted text>

5b There is nothing in 1 Cor 15 that would indicate a spiritual body could not eat and drink as we already have evidence a spiritual body can eat and drink as G-d himself ate with Abraham Gen 18. The angels also ate which are spiritual bodies. Lastly Paul affirms in the passage you cite that Yeshua rose from the dead.
--------

A little of animal physiology here as a prelude, if you don't mind.
As one eats, digestion follows in a few hours. After the body absorbs what is useful, the wasted part goes through the intestines
and out through the rectum. Obviously, we need to go to the restroom for that last part of digestion. If we are supposed to continue doing this after death, I prefer to stay in the grave forever. So, thank you but no thanks. To imply that God goes through this, is to be no different from the Greek believers of the
Olympian gods of Mythology.

What happened to Abraham to be visited by God and angels was a dream. In a dream everything is possible, even for a cow to fly. Abraham had been very anxious lately about Sarah not being able to conceive and his cousin Lot living in such a corrupt city as Sodom. Then, he slumbered and had a dream. That's how God communicated His will to His servants, the prophets: By way of dreams.(Num. 12:6)

And for Paul's affirmation that Yeshua rose from the dead, it could
not be any different if he was the one himself who fabricated the idea that Jesus was the Messiah and that he had resurrected. He made no secret about it, as he declared to his disciple Timothy that it had all been according to his gospel.(2 Tim. 2:8)

Ben

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#9
Dec 22, 2012
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
---------
1. I could not have overlooked the spear-piercing. It just did not happen. It was not a Roman policy to spear crucifieds to check for dead bodies. Josephus said that thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans only in the First Century. Josephus was never told of anyone who was spear-pieced. The interpolation was added from plagiarizing Isaiah 53:5 with the intent to enhance Jesus as the one whom Isaiah was pointing to. Therefore, pious forgery into the text.
Ben
Again no proof only opinion. The only evidence we have contradicts your position so you have to dismiss it.

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#10
Dec 22, 2012
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
--------
The Centurion was alone and the only one to come when Pilate summoned him to verify if Jesus was indeed dead. That alone rules out your opinion that there were more men involved. In the crucifixion, yes, but not in the verification. And about your question if I have any historical evidence that Jesus survived the cross, we all, who study the NT have the evidence. According to Luke in Acts 1:3, after the cross, Jesus appeared for 40 days to his disciples with "convicing evidences" that he was alive, in flesh and bone, eating and drinking just as he used to before the cross. Besides, Luke reports that it was "after" his passion or sufferings. After one's passion and suffering is no proof that one died; let alone that he ever resurrected. If Luke is to be believed, you have the historical evidence that Jesus did survive the cross.
Ben
.
The fact that he was a centurian by definition shows he had the command of many soldiers. Are you suggesting the centurian nailed Yeshua to the cross and then lifted it in himself? Are you saying that the Jewish leadership who championed his death would allow him to escape? Certainly not. They we given the charge to guard the tomb, which they failed to do.
.
Surviving the cross is not the same as being alive after death, which is the testimony we have. As you deny any miraculous events it doesn't surprise me that you cannot accept the testimony of at least three Jewish men who state he died and rose from ther dead.
.
Lastly you appeal to the gospels as your historical proof yet you deny the veracity of these same documents. You would be better to appeal to Tacitus who states "To suppress this rumor, Nero fabricated scapegoats – and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians
(as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius’ reign by the governor of Judaea, Pontius Pilate".
.
Or the Talmud...Sanhedrin 43a

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#11
Dec 22, 2012
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
The day you present as Jesus on the cross at 3 PM was not Thursday but Friday. Evidence? No problem. Read Mat. 27:62. "The next day, the one following the Day of Preparation..." The Day of Preparation
according to Judaism is the 6th day, aka, Friday. True that the day
prior to the day of Passover was a day of preparation, but not the weakly Day of Preparation. Therefore, the next day was the Sabbath.
See also John 19:31. "Since it was the Preparation Day, the Jews did not want to have the bodies left on the cross during the Sabbath; for "that Sabbath" happened to be a solemn feast day. Reference here made to the Passover which happened to have fallen on the Sabbath that year. Therefore, no one can find more than two days and two nights, if we are to assume that he stayed in the tomb
till the tombstone was removed and the tomb was found empty.
The reality, IMHO, is that Jesus did not spend more than an hour or two in his walk-in tomb until Joseph of Arimathea removed him from there to a safer place where he could take care of his wounds with the help of Nicodemus who brought about 100 pounds of medications as his share in the care of Jesus.(John 19:39)
Ben
.
By your own post you prove that it wasn't a Friday as the text says it was a solemn feast day, if it were a regular sabbath there would have been no need to give this additional information.
.
What proof do you offer that the Pesach was on a Friday that year? Since this would happen by chance once every seven years you have a 16% chance it will fall on 30 A.D. If I am not mistaken you will not offer any.

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#12
Dec 22, 2012
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
--------
Ben
.
<quoted text>
A little of animal physiology here as a prelude, if you don't mind.
As one eats, digestion follows in a few hours. After the body absorbs what is useful, the wasted part goes through the intestines
and out through the rectum. Obviously, we need to go to the restroom for that last part of digestion. If we are supposed to continue doing this after death, I prefer to stay in the grave forever. So, thank you but no thanks. To imply that God goes through this, is to be no different from the Greek believers of the
Olympian gods of Mythology.
.
Maybe you should equaint yourself with Jewish tradition as it is said that in the 40 years of wandering no one had to use the restroom. So no it isn't obvious.
.
Additionally you don't have the choice to remain in the grave as all will be resurrected.
.
<quoted text>
.
What happened to Abraham to be visited by God and angels was a dream. In a dream everything is possible, even for a cow to fly. Abraham had been very anxious lately about Sarah not being able to conceive and his cousin Lot living in such a corrupt city as Sodom. Then, he slumbered and had a dream. That's how God communicated His will to His servants, the prophets: By way of dreams.(Num. 12:6)
.
When G-d communicates thru a dream he states it like:
Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
Gen 31:11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
Gen 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.
.
And for Paul's affirmation that Yeshua rose from the dead, it could
not be any different if he was the one himself who fabricated the idea that Jesus was the Messiah and that he had resurrected. He made no secret about it, as he declared to his disciple Timothy that it had all been according to his gospel.(2 Tim. 2:8)
.
The only fabrication going on here is your rewriting of the texts. Paul didn't become a believer for years after the resurrection, which was preached by the disciple and witnesses.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
.

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#13
Dec 22, 2012
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
----------
See what I mean by contradictions? One can see them without going from a gospel to another. "The prehogative of the author?" So, he is free to say something in a page and the opposite in another and still be justified at what he says? Understand now what I mean by Christian preconceived notions? That's what faith is all about. Of course, later on, God knows when, Jesus eventually gave up the ghost and died. But nobody knows when, how, and why.
Ben
.
I find it strange that someone who was considered G-d, could die without anyone knowing how when or where. Certainly you have no evidence to support your position.

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#14
Dec 22, 2012
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
--------
The testimony we have is from the NT which is loaded with contradictions. That's why it contradicts the testimony you have. It is incredible to believe all right, but only by those moved by Christian preconceived notions. The logic is that Jesus had to leave Israel in order not to compromise the lives of Joseph of Arimathea, Mary Magdalene and his own from going back to the cross.
Most definitely, secret was required of his disciples about his whereabouts. Yes, the graves of Jewish tzadiks used to be sites of
prayers. The supposed-to-have-been grave of Jesus in Jerusalem is also used by Christians as a site for worshipping. I have been there twice as an eyewitness to what I am talking about.
Ben
.
And there is no evidence of this happening before the 4th century A.D.
Additionally the difference is there is no one in that grave as opposed to the others we are talking about.
.
<quoted text>
.
The logic is that Jesus had to leave Israel in order not to compromise the lives of Joseph of Arimathea, Mary Magdalene and his own from going back to the cross.
.
Yet the only sources we have all claim he reamined in Israel for 40 days before ascending to heaven from the Mount of Olives. Certainly the witnesses/proclaimers of his resurrection would also be under this same threat yet they were in Jerusalem for years, the last one martyred just prior to the desctruction of the temple.(James the Just)
.
In conclusion you have no evidence only your attempts to explain away the death and resurrection of the Messiah, which I can say are more fantastic than the eyewitness accounts we have.

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#15
Dec 24, 2012
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
Again no proof only opinion. The only evidence we have contradicts your position so you have to dismiss it.
--------

Only opinions perhaps, but you don't have even one to stand before mine.

Ben

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#16
Dec 24, 2012
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
The fact that he was a centurian by definition shows he had the command of many soldiers. Are you suggesting the centurian nailed Yeshua to the cross and then lifted it in himself? Are you saying that the Jewish leadership who championed his death would allow him to escape? Certainly not. They we given the charge to guard the tomb, which they failed to do.
.
Surviving the cross is not the same as being alive after death, which is the testimony we have. As you deny any miraculous events it doesn't surprise me that you cannot accept the testimony of at least three Jewish men who state he died and rose from ther dead.
.
Lastly you appeal to the gospels as your historical proof yet you deny the veracity of these same documents. You would be better to appeal to Tacitus who states "To suppress this rumor, Nero fabricated scapegoats – and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians(as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius’ reign by the governor of Judaea, Pontius Pilate".
.
Or the Talmud...Sanhedrin 43a
--------

No, I am not suggesting that the Centurion did the actual work of the crucifixion, but those soldiers were not before Pilate when the Centurior was called to check if Jesus was dead already. The Centurion was alone.

Who was an eyewitness that Jesus resurrected. Show me one and you have made a Christian out of me. Even the angel reported by Matthew was cheated out of being an eyewitness because when he removed the tombstone the tomb was empty. Now, how it got empty is the issue at hand.

If I appeal to the gospels as historical proofs of what is said somewhere else within the gospels, the name is contradictions.

Ben

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#17
Dec 24, 2012
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
By your own post you prove that it wasn't a Friday as the text says it was a solemn feast day, if it were a regular sabbath there would have been no need to give this additional information.
.
What proof do you offer that the Pesach was on a Friday that year? Since this would happen by chance once every seven years you have a 16% chance it will fall on 30 A.D. If I am not mistaken you will not offer any.
----
That could prove you wrong. First, what makes of the Shabbat a solemn or high Sabbath is the fact that a festival fell on the weekly Sabbath, which was the case with the Passavor that year. Now, take a look at John 18:28. "At daybreak (Friday morning) they brought Jesus from Caiaphas to the Pretorium. They did not enter the Pretorium themselves, for they had to avoid ritual impurity if they were to eat the Sedder or Passover supper, that Friday evening. Next day, therefore, it was the solemn Shabbat.
Ben

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#18
Dec 24, 2012
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>

Maybe you should equaint yourself with Jewish tradition as it is said that in the 40 years of wandering no one had to use the restroom. So no it isn't obvious.
.
Additionally you don't have the choice to remain in the grave as all will be resurrected.

When G-d communicates thru a dream he states it like:
Gen 20:3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
Gen 31:11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
Gen 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.

The only fabrication going on here is your rewriting of the texts. Paul didn't become a believer for years after the resurrection, which was preached by the disciple and witnesses.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
.
----------

What!!! 40 years of bowel retention in the desert! I am sorry about
your understanding of metaphorical language. That was good to expose yourself as a laughingstock.

"All will be resurrected!" Christians perhaps. Jews don't believe in bodily resurrection.

Numbers 12:6 is clear enough that "If there is a prophet among you,
in a dream or vision I'll make My will known to him." The Lord did not have to specify that, "Now is a dream or vision," or that "Now,
it is real." You must be too gullible.

Another point about your poor understanding of your own NT is to say that the gospels spoke about Jesus' resurrection a lot before Paul did it. Paul started writing his letters to the Church about 35 years after Jesus had been gone. The gospels were written 50+ years after Jesus had been gone. Therefore, the gospel writers only paraphrased and enlarged the gospel of Paul.

Ben

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#19
Dec 24, 2012
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
I find it strange that someone who was considered G-d, could die without anyone knowing how when or where. Certainly you have no evidence to support your position.
-------

Do you need a strong evidence for the above? You talk of Jesus as
"Someone who was considered God." How could God die? Certainly you are speaking of a Greek god.

Ben

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#20
Dec 24, 2012
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
And there is no evidence of this happening before the 4th century A.D.
Additionally the difference is there is no one in that grave as opposed to the others we are talking about.
.
<quoted text>
.
The logic is that Jesus had to leave Israel in order not to compromise the lives of Joseph of Arimathea, Mary Magdalene and his own from going back to the cross.
.
Yet the only sources we have all claim he reamined in Israel for 40 days before ascending to heaven from the Mount of Olives. Certainly the witnesses/proclaimers of his resurrection would also be under this same threat yet they were in Jerusalem for years, the last one martyred just prior to the desctruction of the temple.(James the Just)
.
In conclusion you have no evidence only your attempts to explain away the death and resurrection of the Messiah, which I can say are more fantastic than the eyewitness accounts we have.
------

The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a People before
the Lord forever. That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37. Besides, the Messiah
cannot be an individual but the collective in the People of Israel.
An individual is born, lives his span of life and eventually dies. Are we supposed to expect for a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. Hence, Jeremiah 31:35-37. And what makes us safe to take that Jeremiah is talking about the People of Israel? You can find the answer in Habakkuk 3:13. "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed One." That's what Machiach means: The Anointed one of the Lord who is identified here as the Jewish People.

Ben

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