The Slitting of 850 Throats

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Since: Nov 09

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#1 Jul 31, 2012
THE SLITTING OF 850 THROATS

Dear Ben,

Reading the books of I and II Kings this past weekend, I came about a gruesome deed of prophet Elijah's who, in order to erradicate the cult of Baal and Asherah, he slitted the throats of 850 of the prophets of Baal and Asherah.(I Kings 18:19) Regardless of the violence of how he carried that out, what had happened to freedom of speech and religion in Israel then?

There was indeed freedom of speech and of religion in Israel even at the time of Elijah. Those 850 prophets of Baal and Asherah were not executed for being what they had chosen to be, but for competing with Elijah the spiritual guardianship of the House of Israel and misleading the People into following after gods that they had not known besides the Lord. They were, IOW, leading the People astray from the way of life in Judaism and into apostasy.(Deut. 13:2-6)

As Elijah was concerned, they were no longer Jews for having adopted the Baal cult of Jezebel, but they would insist on holding unto the Jewish identity to make it easier to add more and more Jewish adepts to their cult. They were so to speak, the Jews-for-Baal.

In fact, Elijah did warn them to make up their minds and decide to, either return to Judaism or stay where they were, but not as Jews. Hence, Elijah's question: "How long will you straddle the issue? If the Lord is God, follow Him; if it's Baal, follow him!" (I Kings 18:21) Just return or stay there IOW.

The Jews-for-Baal were causing a spiritual havoc in the Jewish Community. The issue had become rather political because of the insurrection. Then, Elijah condemned those 850 prophets of Baal and Asherah to death and the People was rescued from total apostasy.(I Kings 18:40)

Something today quite similar to that time, I see in "Jews-for-Jesus" and "Messianic Jews" straddling the issue between Judaism and Christianity. Exactly in between one ideology and the other. They hold unto the Jewish identity while upholding the tenets of Christianity. They are lucky because, the only thing Elijah can do today, is to turn in his grave.

Ben

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#3 Aug 3, 2012
yon wrote:
Written by Ben as told to Ben.
---------

Yes, written by Ben, but inspired by a potential critic of the Jewish Scriptures in the hope to prove a negative point against
Judaism.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#4 Jan 11, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
THE SLITTING OF 850 THROATS
Dear Ben,
Reading the books of I and II Kings this past weekend, I came about a gruesome deed of prophet Elijah's who, in order to erradicate the cult of Baal and Asherah, he slitted the throats of 850 of the prophets of Baal and Asherah.(I Kings 18:19) Regardless of the violence of how he carried that out, what had happened to freedom of speech and religion in Israel then?
There was indeed freedom of speech and of religion in Israel even at the time of Elijah. Those 850 prophets of Baal and Asherah were not executed for being what they had chosen to be, but for competing with Elijah the spiritual guardianship of the House of Israel and misleading the People into following after gods that they had not known besides the Lord. They were, IOW, leading the People astray from the way of life in Judaism and into apostasy.(Deut. 13:2-6)
.
As Elijah was concerned, they were no longer Jews for having adopted the Baal cult of Jezebel, but they would insist on holding unto the Jewish identity to make it easier to add more and more Jewish adepts to their cult. They were so to speak, the Jews-for-Baal.
In fact, Elijah did warn them to make up their minds and decide to, either return to Judaism or stay where they were, but not as Jews. Hence, Elijah's question: "How long will you straddle the issue? If the Lord is God, follow Him; if it's Baal, follow him!" (I Kings 18:21) Just return or stay there IOW.
The Jews-for-Baal were causing a spiritual havoc in the Jewish Community. The issue had become rather political because of the insurrection. Then, Elijah condemned those 850 prophets of Baal and Asherah to death and the People was rescued from total apostasy.(I Kings 18:40)
Something today quite similar to that time, I see in "Jews-for-Jesus" and "Messianic Jews" straddling the issue between Judaism and Christianity. Exactly in between one ideology and the other. They hold unto the Jewish identity while upholding the tenets of Christianity. They are lucky because, the only thing Elijah can do today, is to turn in his grave.
Ben
.
You criticize the Jews of Elijah's day for leaving the path of the sages of that time, yet you have done the same thing in rejecting the sages expectation of a Messiah like Moses (a man), born from the family of David. Your "Composite Israel" Messiah is neither a man or from the family of David or like Moses. Moses was faithful, Israel was not and that is why they went into galut as G-d warned them they would.
.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#5 Jan 16, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
You criticize the Jews of Elijah's day for leaving the path of the sages of that time, yet you have done the same thing in rejecting the sages expectation of a Messiah like Moses (a man), born from the family of David. Your "Composite Israel" Messiah is neither a man or from the family of David or like Moses. Moses was faithful, Israel was not and that is why they went into galut as G-d warned them they would.
-------

I think you should study your Bible a little more seriously. Moses was not a Messiah, but a Messianic leader who rescued the Messiah from Egyptian captivity and led him back to Canaan.

Moses was not born from the family of David. He was from the Tribe of Levi. David was from the Tribe of Judah.

Now, read Exodus 4:22,23 and enlighten yourself with the knowledge that Israel is addressed to as a man, the son of God as in "Israel is My son..." said the Lord.

Then, keep on enlightening yourself with the knowledge that Israel is composed of Judah, the main stem, plus a few thousands from the Ten Tribes, plus the Gentiles who have converted to Judaism.(Isa. 48:1; Eze. 37:22) The main stem is from the Tribe of Judah, the lamp promised by God to remain in Jerusalem forever for the sake of David.(I Kings 11:36) Therefore, the new People of Israel is from the House of David.

Last but not least, Israel went and still can go into Galut because
the Lord loves us. To go to Galut is a punishment and not death. Of
the other nations, the Lord will eventually make an end of them but
of Israel, He will only chastise us as we deserve.(Jer. 46:28)

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#6 Jan 17, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
-------
I think you should study your Bible a little more seriously. Moses was not a Messiah, but a Messianic leader who rescued the Messiah from Egyptian captivity and led him back to Canaan.
Moses was not born from the family of David. He was from the Tribe of Levi. David was from the Tribe of Judah.
Now, read Exodus 4:22,23 and enlighten yourself with the knowledge that Israel is addressed to as a man, the son of God as in "Israel is My son..." said the Lord.
Then, keep on enlightening yourself with the knowledge that Israel is composed of Judah, the main stem, plus a few thousands from the Ten Tribes, plus the Gentiles who have converted to Judaism.(Isa. 48:1; Eze. 37:22) The main stem is from the Tribe of Judah, the lamp promised by God to remain in Jerusalem forever for the sake of David.(I Kings 11:36) Therefore, the new People of Israel is from the House of David.
Last but not least, Israel went and still can go into Galut because
the Lord loves us. To go to Galut is a punishment and not death. Of
the other nations, the Lord will eventually make an end of them but
of Israel, He will only chastise us as we deserve.(Jer. 46:28)
Ben
.
It seems from the biblical text Moses was "annointed" by G-d in that his face shoe when he returned from the mount. Moses doesn't have to be from the house of David the second redeemer is the one from the house of David as we have the testimony of Matthew who gives us mariam's geneology. Additionally it is Jewish tradition that Moses' sister was a forbearer of David so that makes another connection between the 1st and 2nd redeemers in that they are both descended from Levi.
.
As to Israel being addressed as a man I see no support that a "collective Messiah" is being promoted by G-d. And as you have just said Israel being in galut is NOT death and the Messiah is to die. Therefore this also refutes a "collective Israel" as the Messiah.
.
I can agree with you that in the end there will be only one nation, Israel, but we are not told what percentage of that Israel will be "converts". In my opinion the vast majority of that Israel will be those who trust in Yeshua as their atonement. The remnent will be Jews who have made Yeshua their atonement.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#7 Jan 19, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
It seems from the biblical text Moses was "annointed" by G-d in that his face shoe when he returned from the mount. Moses doesn't have to be from the house of David the second redeemer is the one from the house of David as we have the testimony of Matthew who gives us mariam's geneology. Additionally it is Jewish tradition that Moses' sister was a forbearer of David so that makes another connection between the 1st and 2nd redeemers in that they are both descended from Levi.
.
As to Israel being addressed as a man I see no support that a "collective Messiah" is being promoted by G-d. And as you have just said Israel being in galut is NOT death and the Messiah is to die. Therefore this also refutes a "collective Israel" as the Messiah.
.
I can agree with you that in the end there will be only one nation, Israel, but we are not told what percentage of that Israel will be "converts". In my opinion the vast majority of that Israel will be those who trust in Yeshua as their atonement. The remnent will be Jews who have made Yeshua their atonement.
--------

Talking about "second redeemer" if you are referring to Jesus, he could not be from the House of David if he was not a biological son of Joseph's. Are you ready to admit that he was?

God Himself through Moses declared that "Israel is My son." If you are not ready to agree with the Scriptures that's your choice. It is all down in Exodus 4:22,23.

Yes, "at the end" of the Ten Tribes, the whole new Israel became one nation according to Ezekiel 37:22. I gave you the quote, why do
you keep going over the same point? Did I ever mention anything about percentage of Israel being of converts? No, I didn't. I said
that the whole People of the new Israel today is composed of the main stem of Judah plus those from the ancient Ten Tribe who escaped the Assyrians and joined Judah in the South, plus the Gentiles who have coverted to Judaism according to Halacha.(Isa. 56:1-8)

Real Jews cannot make of Yeshua their atonement because it is against the Scriptures that a man should die for the sins of another. Read Jeremiah 31:30.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#8 Jan 19, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
--------
Talking about "second redeemer" if you are referring to Jesus, he could not be from the House of David if he was not a biological son of Joseph's. Are you ready to admit that he was?
God Himself through Moses declared that "Israel is My son." If you are not ready to agree with the Scriptures that's your choice. It is all down in Exodus 4:22,23.
Yes, "at the end" of the Ten Tribes, the whole new Israel became one nation according to Ezekiel 37:22. I gave you the quote, why do
you keep going over the same point? Did I ever mention anything about percentage of Israel being of converts? No, I didn't. I said
that the whole People of the new Israel today is composed of the main stem of Judah plus those from the ancient Ten Tribe who escaped the Assyrians and joined Judah in the South, plus the Gentiles who have coverted to Judaism according to Halacha.(Isa. 56:1-8)
Real Jews cannot make of Yeshua their atonement because it is against the Scriptures that a man should die for the sins of another. Read Jeremiah 31:30.
Ben
.
The scripture doesn't require him to be a son of Joseph. He is a son of David through Mariam.
.
Israel as a son of G-d is a red herring. G-d can have more than one son.
.
The scriptures and Jewish tradition and liturgy tell us that a man can die for another's sin. Isaiah 53 tells us the Messiah will die for sin.
Scripture:
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Liturgy:
Our righteous Messiah has departed from us; we are horror-stricken, and there is none to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he carries, and is wounded for our transgressions. He bears on his shoulder our sins to find pardon for our iniquities may we be healed by his stripes! additional prayers for the Day of Atonement, A. Th. Philips, Machzor Leyom Kippur / Prayer Book for the Day of Atonement with English Translation; Revised and Enlarged Edition (New York: Hebrew Publishing Company, 1931), p. 239. The passage can also be found in, e.g., the 1937 edition. Also, Driver and Neubauer, p. 399.
Theology:
For this is indeed the glory of both the patriarchs and prophets, that they are prepared to give themselves (as an atoning sacrifice) for Israel
Aspects of Rabbinic Theology - Solomon Schechter pg 53
Tradition:
There are seven divisions of paradise, the seventh for those who died of illness inflicted as an expiation for the sins of Israel.
Legends of the Jews - Louis Ginzberg Vol. 1, pg 23

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#9 Jan 21, 2013
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
The scripture doesn't require him to be a son of Joseph. He is a son of David through Mariam.
.
Israel as a son of G-d is a red herring. G-d can have more than one son.
.
The scriptures and Jewish tradition and liturgy tell us that a man can die for another's sin. Isaiah 53 tells us the Messiah will die for sin.
Scripture:
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Liturgy:
Our righteous Messiah has departed from us; we are horror-stricken, and there is none to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he carries, and is wounded for our transgressions. He bears on his shoulder our sins to find pardon for our iniquities may we be healed by his stripes! additional prayers for the Day of Atonement, A. Th. Philips, Machzor Leyom Kippur / Prayer Book for the Day of Atonement with English Translation; Revised and Enlarged Edition (New York: Hebrew Publishing Company, 1931), p. 239. The passage can also be found in, e.g., the 1937 edition. Also, Driver and Neubauer, p. 399.
Theology:
For this is indeed the glory of both the patriarchs and prophets, that they are prepared to give themselves (as an atoning sacrifice) for Israel
Aspects of Rabbinic Theology - Solomon Schechter pg 53
Tradition:
There are seven divisions of paradise, the seventh for those who died of illness inflicted as an expiation for the sins of Israel.
Legends of the Jews - Louis Ginzberg Vol. 1, pg 23
-------

According to Judaism, tribal affiliation could not pass down through the mother but through the father only. Even if it could, Jesus would still not be from the Tribe of Judah because Mary was from the Tribe of Levi.(Luke 1:5,36) Therefore, if Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph's, he was not from the Tribe of Judah. It means, he was not the Messiah.

Yes, God had a whole People as His son. "Israel, the People, is my son." (Exo. 4:22,23) Hey, if you want to call the Scriptures "red
herring" be my guest. I was not the one who wrote that text.

According to Isaiah 53, it is not a man dying for the sins of another but a people (Israel) dying for the sins of another (Judah)
That's when the Lord rejected Israel and confirmed Judah.(Psa. 78:67-69) Israel died by being removed from the Land of Israel by the Assyrians in a permanent exile forever to this very day. Absolutely lost among the Gentiles. And Judah remained before the Lord as a People also forever.(Jer. 31:35-37)

Israel, the Ten Tribes was the Messiah ben Joseph; the Scapegoat sent through the desert toward the East, while Judah remained in Jerusalem as a Lamp forever for the sake of David as God promised him.(I Kings 11:36)

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

#10 Jan 21, 2013
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
-------
According to Judaism, tribal affiliation could not pass down through the mother but through the father only. Even if it could, Jesus would still not be from the Tribe of Judah because Mary was from the Tribe of Levi.(Luke 1:5,36) Therefore, if Jesus was not a biological son of Joseph's, he was not from the Tribe of Judah. It means, he was not the Messiah.
Yes, God had a whole People as His son. "Israel, the People, is my son." (Exo. 4:22,23) Hey, if you want to call the Scriptures "red
herring" be my guest. I was not the one who wrote that text.
According to Isaiah 53, it is not a man dying for the sins of another but a people (Israel) dying for the sins of another (Judah)
That's when the Lord rejected Israel and confirmed Judah.(Psa. 78:67-69) Israel died by being removed from the Land of Israel by the Assyrians in a permanent exile forever to this very day. Absolutely lost among the Gentiles. And Judah remained before the Lord as a People also forever.(Jer. 31:35-37)
Israel, the Ten Tribes was the Messiah ben Joseph; the Scapegoat sent through the desert toward the East, while Judah remained in Jerusalem as a Lamp forever for the sake of David as God promised him.(I Kings 11:36)
Ben
.
We are not talking about tribal affiliation which is not discussed in the TNK. The prophecy is that he would be a descendent. Judaism could easily have changed the rules on tribal affiliation to try to eliminate Yeshua. Anyway since both the mother and his adopting father are both from the tribe of Judah what other tribe could be belong to?
.
The references (Luke 1:5,36) do not prove Miriam is from the tribe of Levi, it proves Elizabeth her cousin is from the tribe of Levi. Miriam could be her cousin through marriage.
.
Additionally we have Miriam's geneology in Mt 1:1-16, which shows she is descended from David.
.
Your reference to "Israel is my son", does not mean Israel is my "only" son. That is why it is a red herring. Yeshua is the "only begotten son" Psa 2:7
.
Israel is not a people as described in Isaiah 53 and this verse eliminates Israel as the person described:
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'
.
As you can see this person was without violence or deceit which eliminates Israel as a people being the one described in this passage.
.
I will also point out that in a previous post it was your claim that exile does not equal death yet here you say it does. Additionally all the tribes are represented within Judah as they migrated there to be with the people who were serving G-d. We have today Jews who know their tribal affiliation is not of Judah, Benjamin or Levi. Luk 2:36

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#11 Jan 25, 2013
M114: We are not talking about tribal affiliation which is not discussed in the TNK.

Ben: How could the Tribes be organized if most of the wives of the 12 sons of jacob were taken from the Gentiles? That's evidence of Patriarchal tribalism.

M114: The prophecy is that he would be a descendent.

Ben: Too bad! The prophecy backfired.

M114: Judaism could easily have changed the rules on tribal affiliation to try to eliminate Yeshua.

Ben: It didn't happen because of Deuteronomy 4:2. The only attempt to change something was done by Paul but he failed.(Heb. 7:12,22)

M114: Anyway since both the mother and his adopting father are both from the tribe of Judah what other tribe could be belong to?

Ben: One more time: Mary was not from the Tribe of Judah. And if according to you, Joseph adopted Jesus, too bad because, according to Judaism adoption would not grant Tribal affiliation. So, according to you, Jesus was a Jew without a Tribe in Israel.

M114: The references (Luke 1:5,36) do not prove Miriam is from the tribe of Levi, it proves Elizabeth her cousin is from the tribe of Levi. Miriam could be her cousin through marriage.

Ben: Hypothetical wish that it could have been the way you preferred.

M114: Additionally we have Miriam's geneology in Mt 1:1-16, which shows she is descended from David.

Ben: Focus on the text. Matthew genealogy is that of Joseph's and not that of Mary's.

M114: Your reference to "Israel is my son", does not mean Israel is my "only" son. That is why it is a red herring. Yeshua is the "only begotten son" Psa 2:7.

Ben: Tell me, was Isaac Abraham's only son? That's in those terms that Israel was God's only son.(Gen. 22:2)

M114: Israel is not a people as described in Isaiah 53 and this verse eliminates Israel as the person described: Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'

Ben: Now, read Isaiah 53:8,9. The Prophet describes exiles for the Jews as being cut off from the Land of the Living and graves being assigned to them with the wicked among the nations.

M114: As you can see this person was without violence or deceit which eliminates Israel as a people being the one described in this passage.

Ben: Israel became the scapegoat for the sins of Judah and not her own sins. Therefore, Israel suffered for the sins of another. It means that Israel was without the violence and deceit of Judah.

M114: I will also point out that in a previous post it was your claim that exile does not equal death yet here you say it does.

Ben: No, I don't. Exile never meant death for the Jews. Only for Israel, the Ten Tribes, to fulfill the role of the Scapegoat. Jews
can still be exiled but always in a temporal sense.

M114: Additionally all the tribes are represented within Judah as they migrated there to be with the people who were serving G-d. We have today Jews who know their tribal affiliation is not of Judah, Benjamin or Levi. Luk 2:36.

Ben: Finally, you have scored the first "A". In fact, the new Israel is composed of Judah, the main stem, a few thousands from the ancient Ten Tribes who succeeded to escape the Assyrians to join Judah in the South, plus the Gentiles converted according to Halacha.(Isa. 56:1-8)

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