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#1
Jun 7, 2012
 
THE BLESSING GOES FOR J. OR G.?

The other day I was asked by a Seventh-Day Adventist church member about how the Jews look at Christians who observe the Sabbath just like Jews do. I answered and said, no different from any other Christian, considered that the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy has no force upon the Gentiles. That it is a commandment required of the Jews only, to obey.(Ezek. 20:12,20)

BTW, Paul, the founder of Christianity has made it very clear that for Christians, all days are alike. That it does not matter what day one keeps to the Lord, as long as one does it to honor the Lord. But as a requirement, no one is expected to keep a specific day, or even no day at all.(Rom. 14:5,6) Paul was right indeed.

His second question was if there is a special blessing for choosing to observe the Sabbath. As I realized he was bargaining for an acknowledgement to his spiritual pretense of consanguinity with the Jewish People without conversion, I offered him the following riddle to solve.

A father had two sons: J. and G. Back from the fields, after a hard and hot day, the father was tired and thirsty. He sat down and commanded J. to bring him a glass of water before he blessed him. J. asked for just a minute or two to finish his little game. G. heard his father and, perceiving that J. had not moved, he went for the water and brought it to his father. When J. was ready and went for the water his father said, "Too late son, I am no longer thirsty."

J. stands for Jews and G. stands for Gentiles. The allegory is based on Genesis 22:18 which says of Abraham: "And in your descendants, all the nations of the earth shall find blessing - and all this, because you have obeyed My command."

Now, the question is: Who will get the blessing, J. or G.? None. Neither J. for having not obeyed, nor G. for not having been commanded. It means that credit is conferred upon whom a command to obey is required. That's a principle of Halachah - Jewish Law. Then, I said to the SDA member: If you wanna keep the Sabbath holy, be my guest, but it means nothing either to us or to Paul for that matter.(Rom. 14:5,6)

Ben
yon

Miami Beach, FL

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#2
Jun 9, 2012
 
Ex 12:49 "The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”
yon

Miami Beach, FL

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#3
Jun 9, 2012
 
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision”(which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from HaMashiach, and excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without Elohim in the world. 13 But now in Yahushua you who once were far away have been brought near by His blood.......19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the Holy people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with HaMashiach himself as the chief cornerstone."
yon

Miami Beach, FL

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#4
Jun 9, 2012
 
Above from Eph 2

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#5
Jun 12, 2012
 
yon wrote:
Ex 12:49 "The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”
--------

The foreigner here is a synonym for the Gentiles in the Land of Israel, who have converted to Judaism. Read Isaiah 56:1-8. Therefore, all those foreigners who had joined Abraham, who had accepted God's Covenant with him. Read Genesis 17:12.
Ben

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#6
Jun 12, 2012
 
yon wrote:
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision”(which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from HaMashiach, and excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without Elohim in the world. 13 But now in Yahushua you who once were far away have been brought near by His blood.......19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with the Holy people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with HaMashiach himself as the chief cornerstone."
---------

Paul, of course, is talking about Jesus in this text. Well, he is in contradiction with himself when he paints "Jesus bringing the Gentiles near by his blood." If you read Matthew 10:5,6, Jesus would rather forbid his disciples to take the gospel to the Gentiles, since he had not come for them. How can one harmonize the
NT with itself? It is really an embarrassment.
Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

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#7
Jan 1, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
THE BLESSING GOES FOR J. OR G.?
The other day I was asked by a Seventh-Day Adventist church member about how the Jews look at Christians who observe the Sabbath just like Jews do. I answered and said, no different from any other Christian, considered that the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy has no force upon the Gentiles. That it is a commandment required of the Jews only, to obey.(Ezek. 20:12,20)
BTW, Paul, the founder of Christianity has made it very clear that for Christians, all days are alike. That it does not matter what day one keeps to the Lord, as long as one does it to honor the Lord. But as a requirement, no one is expected to keep a specific day, or even no day at all.(Rom. 14:5,6) Paul was right indeed.
His second question was if there is a special blessing for choosing to observe the Sabbath. As I realized he was bargaining for an acknowledgement to his spiritual pretense of consanguinity with the Jewish People without conversion, I offered him the following riddle to solve.
A father had two sons: J. and G. Back from the fields, after a hard and hot day, the father was tired and thirsty. He sat down and commanded J. to bring him a glass of water before he blessed him. J. asked for just a minute or two to finish his little game. G. heard his father and, perceiving that J. had not moved, he went for the water and brought it to his father. When J. was ready and went for the water his father said, "Too late son, I am no longer thirsty."
J. stands for Jews and G. stands for Gentiles. The allegory is based on Genesis 22:18 which says of Abraham: "And in your descendants, all the nations of the earth shall find blessing - and all this, because you have obeyed My command."
Now, the question is: Who will get the blessing, J. or G.? None. Neither J. for having not obeyed, nor G. for not having been commanded. It means that credit is conferred upon whom a command to obey is required. That's a principle of Halachah - Jewish Law. Then, I said to the SDA member: If you wanna keep the Sabbath holy, be my guest, but it means nothing either to us or to Paul for that matter.(Rom. 14:5,6)
Ben
.
The problem I have with your reasoning is it contradicts scripture. Esau was commanded to bring Isaac a meal which he did and was blessed. Jacob who wasn't commanded brought the meal and received the blessing.

Since: Dec 09

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#8
Jan 1, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
---------
Paul, of course, is talking about Jesus in this text. Well, he is in contradiction with himself when he paints "Jesus bringing the Gentiles near by his blood." If you read Matthew 10:5,6, Jesus would rather forbid his disciples to take the gospel to the Gentiles, since he had not come for them. How can one harmonize the
NT with itself? It is really an embarrassment.
Ben
.
No embarrassment, everything has it time.
Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
.
It was only fitting that the Jewish nation should be the first to embrace the Messiah, but just like Moses was rejected by his own kinsmen and married into a Gentile family, Yeshua was rejected by his own kinsmen and betrothed himself to the goyim.
.
Everything proceeded as was anticipated and as is taught in the traditions.
.
As the first Redeemer (Moses) appeared, and disappeared, and reappeared after three months, so the second Redeemer would also appear, and disappear, and again become manifest, Dan. 12:11,12 being brought into connection with it. Comp. Midr. on Cant. 2:9; Pesik. 49 a, b.

Since: Dec 09

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#9
Jan 1, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
--------
The foreigner here is a synonym for the Gentiles in the Land of Israel, who have converted to Judaism. Read Isaiah 56:1-8. Therefore, all those foreigners who had joined Abraham, who had accepted God's Covenant with him. Read Genesis 17:12.
Ben
.
A goy who takes on the burden of Torah is not refered to as a foreigner, but is incorporated into the family of Israel.
.
Foreigners in their midst would refer to people like the Gibeonites.
.
"Ever since then whoever adopts Judaism and confesses the unity of the divine name, is counted among the disciples of Abraham. These men are Abraham's household". Judaism - Arthur Hertzberg page 37
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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#10
Jan 2, 2013
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
The problem I have with your reasoning is it contradicts scripture. Esau was commanded to bring Isaac a meal which he did and was blessed. Jacob who wasn't commanded brought the meal and received the blessing.
----------

Under disguise. You have got to consider the circumstances. Jacob had to pay for what he did with the anxieties he went through as a result of his mother's agenda.

Ben

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#11
Jan 2, 2013
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
No embarrassment, everything has it time.
Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
.
It was only fitting that the Jewish nation should be the first to embrace the Messiah, but just like Moses was rejected by his own kinsmen and married into a Gentile family, Yeshua was rejected by his own kinsmen and betrothed himself to the goyim.
.
Everything proceeded as was anticipated and as is taught in the traditions.
.
As the first Redeemer (Moses) appeared, and disappeared, and reappeared after three months, so the second Redeemer would also appear, and disappear, and again become manifest, Dan. 12:11,12 being brought into connection with it. Comp. Midr. on Cant. 2:9; Pesik. 49 a, b.
------

The text says "To the Jews only" and not to the Jews first. Who changed the text, Paul? Who was Paul to change the words of Jesus?

Who said that Jesus betrothed himself to the goying, Paul again? As
the gospels are concerned, throughout Jesus' ministry his business was with Jews only. Even when the Canaanite woman asked him to cure her daughter, he said that it was not proper to take from the food of the children and throw it to the dogs.(Mat. 15:25,26) How did he betrothed himself to the Gentiles by referring to them as dogs?

Ben

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#12
Jan 2, 2013
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
A goy who takes on the burden of Torah is not refered to as a foreigner, but is incorporated into the family of Israel.
.
Foreigners in their midst would refer to people like the Gibeonites.
.
"Ever since then whoever adopts Judaism and confesses the unity of the divine name, is counted among the disciples of Abraham. These men are Abraham's household". Judaism - Arthur Hertzberg page 37
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
------

Thank you. I must admit you are right about the foreigners. They were indeed of the kind of the Gibeonites. But for Gentiles to be of the seed of Abraham, they must convert to Judaism, according to Isaiah 56:1-8.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

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#13
Jan 2, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
----------
Under disguise. You have got to consider the circumstances. Jacob had to pay for what he did with the anxieties he went through as a result of his mother's agenda.
Ben
.
So G-d was fooled by Jacob too? And nevertheless he stil got the blessing and so did Esau. Or does a man's proclamation overule the plan of G-d? Even Jacob when he was blind was able to bless the right grandson.

Since: Dec 09

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#14
Jan 2, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
The text says "To the Jews only" and not to the Jews first. Who changed the text, Paul? Who was Paul to change the words of Jesus?
Who said that Jesus betrothed himself to the goying, Paul again? As
the gospels are concerned, throughout Jesus' ministry his business was with Jews only. Even when the Canaanite woman asked him to cure her daughter, he said that it was not proper to take from the food of the children and throw it to the dogs.(Mat. 15:25,26) How did he betrothed himself to the Gentiles by referring to them as dogs?
Ben
.
You have to read in context of everything, not take a soundbite out of its context so you can't know what it means.
.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
.
Subsequent to this he explains the sequence of events.
.
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
.
He refered to them as dogs because that is what they were used to being called by Jews. It also sets the tone that the gospel is to the Jew first and then the Gentiles get what the Jews fail to feast on, which is what happened.

Since: Dec 09

Calgary, Canada

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#15
Jan 2, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
------
The text says "To the Jews only" and not to the Jews first. Who changed the text, Paul? Who was Paul to change the words of Jesus?
Who said that Jesus betrothed himself to the goying, Paul again? As
the gospels are concerned, throughout Jesus' ministry his business was with Jews only. Even when the Canaanite woman asked him to cure her daughter, he said that it was not proper to take from the food of the children and throw it to the dogs.(Mat. 15:25,26) How did he betrothed himself to the Gentiles by referring to them as dogs?
Ben
.
The Messiah being joined to the Goyim is established in the TNK.
.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
.
Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
.
Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
.
Psa 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
.
Psa 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
.
Eight prophets testify to this fact as does the Talmud and the rabbinic writings.

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#16
Jan 7, 2013
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
So G-d was fooled by Jacob too? And nevertheless he stil got the blessing and so did Esau. Or does a man's proclamation overule the plan of G-d? Even Jacob when he was blind was able to bless the right grandson.
----------

No, God is not like a man to be fooled by another.(Num. 23:19) Isaac was the one fooled by Jacob. God's plan went through as things turned out to be; but Isaac had to be fooled by Jacob for things to happen.

Ben

Since: Nov 09

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#17
Jan 7, 2013
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
You have to read in context of everything, not take a soundbite out of its context so you can't know what it means.
.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
.
Subsequent to this he explains the sequence of events.
.
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
.
He refered to them as dogs because that is what they were used to being called by Jews. It also sets the tone that the gospel is to the Jew first and then the Gentiles get what the Jews fail to feast on, which is what happened.
-------

Rather means only as in "Rather this than that." Mat. 10:6 is about
what Jesus did. Luke 24:47 is about what is to be done in Jesus' name. This is a Pauline decision resolved upon after Jesus had been gone. So, was he the one who set the tone to preach to the Jews first? Here you are right. He did indeed dedicate 95% of his ministry to the Jews since his first station in Damascus and until
his last in Rome.(Acts 9:1,2; Acts 28:17)

Would you please quote to me where Jews would refer to Gentiles as gods? I am not aware of such a thing. And to address to someone as a dog, Jesus broke the Golden Rule of not doing unto others what we would not like they did unto us. Do you think Jesus would have liked to be addressed to as a dog? I don't think so. Therefore, he was not sinless as Christians claim he was.

Ben

Since: Nov 09

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#18
Jan 7, 2013
 
MESSIANIC114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
The Messiah being joined to the Goyim is established in the TNK.
.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
.
Isa 60:5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
.
Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
.
Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
.
Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
.
Psa 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
.
Psa 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
.
Eight prophets testify to this fact as does the Talmud and the rabbinic writings.
All the quotations above, you claim fulfilment in Jesus as a result of preconceived notions. They have nothing to do with Jesus because the Messiah is not supposed to be an individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah cannot die. He is supposed to remain as a People before the Lord forever, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37. Why do I believe that the Messiah is the People of Israel? Because Messiah means "the anointed one of the Lord." If you read Habakkuk 3:13,
"The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one.

Ben

Since: Dec 09

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#19
Jan 7, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
----------
No, God is not like a man to be fooled by another.(Num. 23:19) Isaac was the one fooled by Jacob. God's plan went through as things turned out to be; but Isaac had to be fooled by Jacob for things to happen.
Ben
.
If G-d is not a man according to Nu 23:19, then he is a man according to:
Exo 15:3 The LORD is a man of war, The LORD is His name.
.
But you assertion was that the blessing can only go to whom obeys the command. I showed you from scripture that both Esau and Jacob received blessing. Jacob in spite of obeying what he was not asked to do. Therefore on the same grounds the goyim will receive a blessing for doing what Israel was called to do and that is be a light to the nations.

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#20
Jan 7, 2013
 
Ben_Masada wrote:
<quoted text>
All the quotations above, you claim fulfilment in Jesus as a result of preconceived notions. They have nothing to do with Jesus because the Messiah is not supposed to be an individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. The Messiah cannot die. He is supposed to remain as a People before the Lord forever, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37. Why do I believe that the Messiah is the People of Israel? Because Messiah means "the anointed one of the Lord." If you read Habakkuk 3:13,
"The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one.
Ben
.
The explanation of these scriptures has nothing to do with "preconceived notions" but the teachings of the sages such as: Great and dignified names which have been given to Israel have also been bestowed on other nations, such as 'Congregation,''mighty,''wise, ''perfect,' and 'righteous.' Levit. Rabba 5.
.
And: Judaism maintains that the righteous of all nations have a place in the world to come. This has been the majority rule since the days of the Talmud. Judaism generally recognizes that Christians and Moslems worship the same G-d that we do and those who follow the tenets of their religions can be considered righteous in the eyes of G-d.
http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm

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