Letter: Mormon church has seen attacks before

Mormon doesn't have a church named after him, but his name has popped up in the news a lot lately.

[Joe Sixpack]

Hey, no one is arguing that we should keep people from having a crutch to get through life. Some use religion, drugs, booze, or whatever helps them get through the day. I think libertarian people are just asking the dependent people to keep their personal crutches to themselves and leave everyone else to make their own decisions. That seems reasonable.

[Guest]

Joe Sixpack wrote:

Hey, no one is arguing that we should keep people from having a crutch to get through life. Some use religion, drugs, booze, or whatever helps them get through the day. I think libertarian people are just asking the dependent people to keep their personal crutches to themselves and leave everyone else to make their own decisions. That seems reasonable.

Ah yes freedom without responsibility or consequence. There should be no laws either? After all everyone has a right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. lol!

[Say Again Please]

Mormans walked among the people you speak of in Utah (Native American)and promptly stole their lands.

[David]

Poorly written..... You got the point across that you are LDS, but what was with the massive intro all leading up to an ending paragraph that pitifully sucked. I am sorry for the harsh critique, and I have never before commented on an article, but bad form jerry. If I was an English teacher, I would have failed you in class. You should have titled your article, "Mormon, meet the man..... and some persecution at the very end."

[Disbelief]

If Mormons want to be looked upon with tolerance by the non Mormon majority... shouldn't they also practice tolerance themselves?

[TheSkittles]

The Mormon community is two faced and even cruel to their own kind if they "slip up". If the Mormons actually did keep to them selves and be peaceful i wouldn't have to deal with door to door moormons constantly trying to convert me. You writing and article to act innocent and and helpless is not the way to go right now.

[native1resident]

Tolerance! Sooooo many people sooooo many definitions!
You folks who use this word DO NOT KNOW ITS MEANING! Do you know how to use Spell Check on your computers? Can you even read? I know, you went to a liberal art college where any one can teach anything.

[TheSkittles]

Tolerance:
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.
3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.
4. the act or capacity of enduring; endurance

There's always one of you on the forums, native. Someone who takes cheap shots towards others, and puts down an entire community to get your kicks. When i don't have my coffee, i tend to misspell.
Also, i tend to use the 4th definition of tolerance that i posted, in which i have a certain capacity of endurance. I am, however not tolerant of people coming and knocking on my door constantly waking up my son from his nap only to preach to me. Get a life native, and try contributing to a conversation instead of insulting others for your sheer enjoyment.

[ShellyGirl]

Thank you for the insightful article. I too find it interesting that the Mormons are misunderstood. No one bothers to look into the standards, the good works or the principles by which the Mormons live by.

They are an easy target, but I can guarantee you if the gays were being protested, property damaged and gay businesses were being black listed, there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth. No religion should ever have to face this type of discrimination in this great country of ours. This is not a democratic behavior (intimidation).

The Mormons have broad shoulders. They are so confident in their walk with God, that they would probably give their lives if asked. The gays are just an annoyance.

[Grandpasmurf952]

ShellyGirl, perhaps you should do more research on the Mormon church, search the internet for interesting topics like blood atonement, Death angels, Mountain Meadow Massacre,.... I could go on and on but if you do your research you will find that their niceness is all surface gloss.
Here is a direct quote from one of their own books from their prophet, Joseph Smith.:
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers!
All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains,
roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last.
I have more to boast of than ever any man had.
I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam.
A large majority of the whole have stood by me.
Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.
I boast that no man ever did such a work as I.
The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...
When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)(Joseph Smith)

and being a woman , aren't you a little bit concerned about their position on woman's rights (they are against it)
And as far as the gays being upset, what about all of the gay people that were used to start fires at the witch burnings ? These poor people were burned alive to get the fire hot enough to burn the witches!(in case you were not aware, this is where we get the derogatory term "faggot") Read your history ! Gay people have been tormented for centuries ! and now that we have irrefutable evidence that sexual orientation is determined at birth (something gay people have been trying to tell us for years)
society has a lot of apologizing to do !

[Time Will Tell]

ShellyGirl wrote:

Thank you for the insightful article. I too find it interesting that the Mormons are misunderstood. No one bothers to look into the standards, the good works or the principles by which the Mormons live by.
They are an easy target, but I can guarantee you if the gays were being protested, property damaged and gay businesses were being black listed, there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth. No religion should ever have to face this type of discrimination in this great country of ours. This is not a democratic behavior (intimidation).
The Mormons have broad shoulders. They are so confident in their walk with God, that they would probably give their lives if asked. The gays are just an annoyance.

Whoa Girl...are you way out of touch or what. What do you mean if "...the gays were being protested, property damaged and gay businesses were being black listed, there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth?" What do you think has been happening while you so conveniently slept? You are the worst kind of ignorant. You have no business commenting on a subject that you obviously know nothing about. If ignorance is bliss, you must be very happy!

[Hannah Rebekah]

Time Will Tell wrote:

<quoted text>
Whoa Girl...are you way out of touch or what. What do you mean if "...the gays were being protested, property damaged and gay businesses were being black listed, there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth?" What do you think has been happening while you so conveniently slept? You are the worst kind of ignorant. You have no business commenting on a subject that you obviously know nothing about. If ignorance is bliss, you must be very happy!

Look....you are probably right about it happening to the Gays....but then shouldn't the Gays of all people know NOT to discriminate against others because it has happened to them? You've lost all credibility for your cause because of how this whole thing has been handled.

[manaen]

An LDS leader, B H Roberts, limned the difference between the then-current challenges to the Church and real persecution in his remarks to the June, 1907 MIA conference. The Church had just released an “Address to the World” to counter false stories about us. The Ministerial Assoc of SLC then put forth its review of the Address, followed by Elder Roberts’ response.
.
Here’s an excerpt:
.
“These gentlemen reviewers express two fears. One is that they will be charged, because of issuing this review, with misrepresentation. Well, I don’t wonder at that, and I think we have proven that you have misrepresented. But they also fear that we will charge them with persecution. Gentlemen, we acquit you of the intention of persecution. When the Revs. Phineas Ewing, Dixon, Cavanaugh, Hunter, Bogart, Isaac McCoy, Riley, Pixley, Woods and others carried on an agitation in Missouri against “Mormonism” and the “Mormons” that resulted in burning hundreds of our homes and driving our people including women and children, remember, to bivouac out in the wilderness at an inclement season of the year; when the mob incited by these reverends, your prototypes, gentlemen, laid waste our fields and gardens, stripped our people of their earthly possessions, keeping up that agitation until twelve thousand or fifteen thousand people were driven from the state of Missouri, dispossessed of several hundred thousand acres of land, two hundred and fifty thousand acres, to be exact,”which they had entered, and rendered them homeless” we might call, we do call, that persecution. When the Rev. Mr. Levi Williams led the mob that shot to death Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum Smith in Carthage prison, and when the Rev. Mr. Thomas S. Brockman led the forces against Nauvoo, after the great body of the people had withdrawn from that city, and expelled the aged, the widow and the fatherless, and laid waste the property of the people, we think we are justified in calling that persecution, of which right reverend gentlemen were the chief instigators. And when in this territory some years ago one wave of agitation followed another, of which your class, and some of you, were chief movers, until a reign of terror was produced [in 1858, 1/5 of the U.S. Army occupied the LDS settlements in what then was Mexican territory and now is Utah], and a regime was established under which men guilty at most of a misdemeanor [“co-habitating” was the charge against polygamy – each time the husband entered a plural wife’s house was considered a separate offense], could nevertheless be imprisoned for a term of years covering a lifetime, and fined to the exhaustion of all they possessed, under the beautiful scheme of segregating the offense into numerous counts in each indictment; and when in that reign of terror women were compelled to clasp their little ones to their breasts and go out among strangers, exiled from their homes, we might be inclined to call that persecution. But our experience has been such that we scorn to call such attacks as this review of yours persecution. It does not rise, gentlemen, I assure you, to that bad eminence. So we acquit you of any intent in your review to persecute us. You need not fear that such a charge will be made, we are not so thin-skinned as all that. Besides, gentlemen, your power is no longer equal to your malice, and so we do not believe you will ever be able to persecute us again.“

[Time Will Tell]

Hannah Rebekah wrote:

<quoted text>
Look....you are probably right about it happening to the Gays....but then shouldn't the Gays of all people know NOT to discriminate against others because it has happened to them? You've lost all credibility for your cause because of how this whole thing has been handled.

I am "probably right about it happening to Gays?" Geez...how do you sleep at night? The "whole thing" is about equality. The "whole thing" is about not sticking your nose into someone else's business, because another's lifestyle is NOT your business. And keep it mind (because the Mormon's are doing it right now), when someone is pushed hard enough...they are going to fight back. You picked a fight and now you claim to have been attacked. That is coward's answer. And let's set the record straight, intolerance is what the Mormon's preach...gays are just standing up for their rights and in a not so quiet fashion anymore. Church's and their members are not the pillars of society they seem to see themselves as...you're just being exposed for what you are. Live with it...

[manaen]

Grandpassmurf952, nice bit of fantasy dust in the air, such as:
* hauling out long-disproven red herrings like "blood atonement" -- some discussion from 150 years ago but no instances of application. Instead, LDS scripture since *before* that time tells us "We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, aaccording to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has bauthority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship." (D&C 134:10) and this was/is the practice of the Church.
.
* or your comment, "being a woman , aren't you a little bit concerned about their position on woman's rights (they are against it)." Do you mean like:
-- Our belief that we have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father
-- Our doctrine that only a man and woman *together as equals* can reach the highest levels of heaven.(Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.-- 1 Cor 11:11)

-- Utah was the first state to grant women's suffrage. Later, Susan B. Anthony spoke more than once in the Salt Lake Tabernacle.
-- In the 1980's, the only woman U.S. Senator was LDS Paula Hawkins (R-Fla).
-- 10k women participated in Utah's ERA convention. The next highest total was 1k in more-populous CA and NY

[ShellyGirl]

Smurf,
You are blurring the lines.
1. The text you posted about Joseph is to his enemies who tried several times to kill him. He was making the relationship that he has power in his calling as a prophet and he will not leave Christ as those who professed such power did. I know the history well. I have taught seminary and gospel doctrine for over 40 years. I am not worried at all with your revised history. I have read volumes of the "twisted" history its critics love to flood the internet with. Sorry, but not one time did I read something that didn't prove to be false after researching it. The MMM was by a group of people who were Mormons, not the church itself in any official capacity.

2. As a woman, I have never seen a church or organization that empowers women more. I accept my divine role as a mother and wife. I do not want to replace it with any of the callings men receive. Please don't speak for me about woman's rights. I am a business owner with multiple branch offices and millions in revenues. My greatest blessings (and peace) come from my gender role as a mother and wife. I have experienced both sides of the isle and the prophet is right when it comes to rearing children, the mother is ultimately responsible for the nurturing. No other success can compensate for failure in the home.

3. The gays have been treated poorly. They are still treated poorly, but denying them the title of marriage is protecting the traditional meaning of marriage, not treating them poorly. I have several gay relatives and 3 in my ward. I actually have much concern and love for them, but I will never forsake the gospel of Jesus Christ to allow others to change His plan. Sorry, but I'm committed to the Savior. I will vote against it every time, and I will teach as many as will listen to leave the definition of marriage alone. It is not ours to change. No one is being persecuted or hated when they are defending what has been for thousands of years. Stop painting the scenario one color and calling it another.

[Joe Sixpack]

Guest wrote:

<quoted text>
Ah yes freedom without responsibility or consequence. There should be no laws either? After all everyone has a right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. lol!

Freedom with responsibility, of course, unlike your idiot Republic Party heros ruining our great country. My point is people who think for themselves exercise freedom with responsibility, without crutches.

[ShellyGirl]

Time Will Tell wrote:

<quoted text> I am "probably right about it happening to Gays?" Geez...how do you sleep at night? The "whole thing" is about equality. The "whole thing" is about not sticking your nose into someone else's business, because another's lifestyle is NOT your business. And keep it mind (because the Mormon's are doing it right now), when someone is pushed hard enough...they are going to fight back. You picked a fight and now you claim to have been attacked. That is coward's answer. And let's set the record straight, intolerance is what the Mormon's preach...gays are just standing up for their rights and in a not so quiet fashion anymore. Church's and their members are not the pillars of society they seem to see themselves as...you're just being exposed for what you are. Live with it...

You have a short memory. In 2000 the gays agreed to have civil unions when prop 22 was passed limiting marriage to 1 man and 1 woman so we could "get on with keeping the peace". They were guaranteed the same rights as married couples. They were given equality without changing the definition of marriage that is a religious reference for millions handed down through the centuries. No rights are being denied!! This is just flowery words with immature behavior hoping to change the minds of people.

This is not about equality, as they have that legally without upsetting people of faith by changing their definition of marriage. Targeting one group of people is undermining the will of the people at the ballot boxes.

Don't feel one bit sorry for the Mormons. They are much bigger than any of this. Your rationalization for horrendous retaliation speaks volumes of your character.

[TheSkittles]

History shows that the Mormons went through a succession crisis, many argued who would be next to lead the church, this caused them to splinter off the original church and move. They were not forced to leave. The mob that killed Joseph Smith only went after the people who were jailed. Nice way to play victim though.
No wonder people wanted to go after him. With so many warrants out he became paranoid and called martial law, raising a militia of 5,000 people. If you raise an army someone will challenge you.

[Duce Big-low]

Time Will Tell wrote:

<quoted text> I am "probably right about it happening to Gays?" Geez...how do you sleep at night? The "whole thing" is about equality. The "whole thing" is about not sticking your nose into someone else's business, because another's lifestyle is NOT your business. And keep it mind (because the Mormon's are doing it right now), when someone is pushed hard enough...they are going to fight back. You picked a fight and now you claim to have been attacked. That is coward's answer. And let's set the record straight, intolerance is what the Mormon's preach...gays are just standing up for their rights and in a not so quiet fashion anymore. Church's and their members are not the pillars of society they seem to see themselves as...you're just being exposed for what you are. Live with it...

Still confused? Marital status has absolutely NOTHING to do with your equal rights. We are NOT changing the traditional definition of marriage to include gay sex.