Templars and Masons and Mormon! Oh, my!
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“"LDS Christian"”

Since: Nov 07

Orem, UT

#1 Aug 20, 2008
I love history and the Knights Templars are a very interesting subject...full of mystery and intrigue. The original eight Knights Templars who were related or intermarried, stayed in the Holy Land long after the first Crusade was over. They were given the Al-Aqsa Mosque as their quarters which was located on the Temple Mound on the South East corner above the famous 'Solomon Stables.' These stables were described as being large enough to hold more than 2000 horses or 1500 camels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugues_de_Payens

Legend has it that Hugues de Payens, the first Grand-Master of the Templars, and Godfrey de Saint-Omer, one of the other original Knights were so poor that between the two of them they had only one horse, and this gave rise to the famous image on the seal of the Templars, of two men riding a single horse.
Legend has it the Knights excavated under the Temple mound looking for treasures...which these same legends claim that they found and became very wealthy. Among some of their fabulous finds it was reported there were 21 scrolls that were taken back to France and Godfrey de Saint-Omer had an scholarly uncle, Lambert de St Omer who made a copies of them which now resides in the library of Ghent University.[whom was instructed not to make any copies - when found out, he was killed ...]

When the news of the first finds was relayed back to Europe, Count Fulk d'Anjou sped with all haste to Jerusalem where he took the oath of allegience to the new Order. Count Fulk d'Anjou was not only the Count of Anjou and a Templar but also later became King of Jerusalem.

Justin,
In your studies or research have you ran across any information about the Temple scrolls the Knights found? It is claimed that many of the Temple treasures were hidden under the Temple Mound before the Temple was destroyed in the year 70AD when Jerusalem was sieged. The copper scroll found in the Dead Sea Scroll verifies this as it was a treasure scroll revealing where the treasures were buries. Other have used this scroll to check out the locations of items listed on it but there was only evidence of others who had been there before and no treasure. These Temple scrolls the Templars found had many interesting subjects contained on them, and a reasonable consensus is emerging that they contained scriptural scrolls, ancient esoteric temple teachings, treatises on sacred geometry, and details of certain knowledge, art and science - the hidden wisdom of the ancient initiates of the Judaic/Egyptian tradition and supposable they tie into Freemasonry which came on the scenes later on in European history. The history of the Rex Deus families keeps surfacing throughout this history...before Christ and on down through European history and their part in much of this history.
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#2 Aug 21, 2008
Hannah, good thread & ?s.

The Knight Templars & other Christian Knight orders, inherited from later Christianity, left over fragments of the earlier Christian mysteries , or esoteric temple type teachings; by then becoming more & more fraternalized & legendized. As this process continued, Masonry & Freemasonry is the later product.

Mormonism is the restoration of not Masonry, but rather early Christianity. Cause masons don't teach about a pre-existence of souls; baptism for the dead; the preaching of the gospel to the spirits in the spirit prison; becoming gods through follow Christ's teachings; & nor do masons have a creation drama in their fraternal Orders' mysteries. Masons have many of the different types of hand grips, garment symbolism, but such things have been inherited from historic Christianity, blended in with pagan, Egyptian, Judaic & other mystery religions' esoteric temple type teachings, a product of the Great apostasy.

What happens during ages of apostasy, when the spiritual gifts fade out, & when the prophets are martyred off & apostate take over the churches, is things get argued over, lost, changed, discontinued & legendized as time goes by until another restoration come along to "refresh" & bring back, or restore what was lost, & fragmented.

Examples:

200s A.D., early Christians argued about what happened during Christ's descent,(thousands of hand & wrist grips are depicted in art works of this, as well as references to hand grips by the church fathers).



397 & 398 AD Councils of Hippo & Carthage, discontinued later versions of baptism for the dead; by doing away with performing baptism of the dead.(In some cases, hand & wrist grips were performed, to raise the baptized out of the water or baptismal fonts, a type of Christ's resurrection,(Col.2:12; Rom. 6:3-6; 1 Cor. 15; Isa 42:6-7).

553 AD, Origen's version & other aspects of later versions of the pre-existence was argued over,(some art works depicting pre-existence themes, show hand & wrist grips being done in depictions of Rev. 12).

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos...

Further fraternalization of the early Christian mysteries is seen in the later symbols in the gloves worn by different religious leaders. A later Christian symbol that may be a type for Christ's wounds is the monial on the glove. Thus, in the middle of later Christian gloves is a symbol called the "monial on the glove". In some art works and stone monuments, a number of later Christians are shown with gloves on while grasping hands. Furthermore, grave carvings & monuments also show these symbols in the gloves. This symbolism was passed on to the masons, who use gloved hand clasping symbols in their orders.
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#3 Aug 21, 2008
Sources: Macklin's Monumental Brasses,(Including a bibliography & a list of figure brasses remaining in churches in the United Kingdom), re-written by John Page-Phillips, first published in 1969, see 2nd edition 1972, London: George Allen And Unwin LTD., pp. 50 & 53, William Ermyn, rector, 1401, Castle Ashby, Northants. Skulptur Und Grabmal Des Spatmittelalters In Rom Und Italien, Akten Des Kongresses, Scultura E Monumento Sepolcrale Del Tardo Medioevo A Roma E In Italia (Rom, 4--6. Juli 1985), Herausgegeben von Jorg Garms Und Angiola Maria Romanini, Verlag Der Osterreichischen Akademie Der Wissenschaften, Wien, 1990, figure 14. See also: Figures 14, 15, Abbs. 5, 15, 27, 32, p. 265, fig. 3, & figures 26-27, 29, p. 272, fig. 33, Abb. 12-13, p. 393, abbs. 1-2, Abb. 3 of Mailand. S. Gottando, Grabmal des Azzo Viseonti, Liegefigur. See also Abbs 9-10, Abb 4, fig. 5. Julian Gardner, The Tomb And The Tiara, Curial Tomb Sculpture in Rome and Avignon in the Later Middle Ages,(Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992), figs. 18-19, 25-6, 66, 74-5, 81-2, 108, 111-12, 125-7, 144, 204, 220, & 224-7. Henry Trivick, 1971, The Picture Book of Brasses in Gilt, 5 Royal Opera Arcade Pall Mall London SW I, John Baker, p. 17, u, soul on garment, 169, 172, 198-99. Craig Harbison, The Last Judgment in Sixteenth Century Northern Europe,(New York and London: Garland Publisher Inc., 1976), p. 316, fig. 8 of Martin Schaffner, The Blessed, fragment of a Last Judgment,(Pfullendorf Altar), panel, c. 1500, Freiburg, Diozesanmuseum,(inv. no. Mla/D), the glove symbol is seen on a religious leader who is clasping the wrist of a naked soul about to enter into paradise. Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons or The Papal Worship Proved to be The Worship of Nimrod and His Wife,(Neptune, New Jersey: Loizeaux Brothers, first edition 1916, First american edition 1943, second 1959, pub. in English by A & C Black, LTD); Francis Legge, Forerunners & Rivals Of Christianity, From 330 B.C. To 330 A.D.,(New Hyde Park, New York: Un. Books, 1964); Dr. Huge Nibley, Mormonism And Early Christianity, 1987,(Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Company, & Provo, Utah: Foundation For Ancient Research & Mormon Studies, FARMS.
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#4 Aug 21, 2008
More sources: During the Council of Hippo at Northern Africa, in 393 A.D., & during the 3rd Council of Carthage, in North Africa, in 397 A.D. Baptism of dead bodies was rejected. Some scholars also seem to suggest that some Christians also started to reject baptism of a living person, for & in behalf of the dead.

John P. Lundy believed, based on his research, that the practice of baptizing a living person for & in behalf of the dead, was discontinued. There must have been different Christian sects who practiced this ordinance, in order for them to later reject & discontinue the practice. We know that some of the groups that practiced this ordinance were the Marcionites & the Montanists. Lundy wrote that "the practice of baptizing for
the dead was discontinued by the Council of Carthage, at the end of the 4th century." A.D.
Monumental Christianity, 2nd Ed., Pub. by J.W. Bouton, N.Y., 1882, p.382-3; Roger Adam, Baptism For The Dead, an unpub. thesis, by Roger Adam, 1977, found in the LDS Church Archives, SLC, Utah; Nibley, Mormonism & Early Christianity; Baptism for the Dead, by Ariel L. Crowley.

Council of Constantinople, 553 A.D. Pre-existence argued over. Mormonism, The Dead Sea Scrolls & The Nag Hammadi Texts, by Seaich, p.5-12; An Ecclesiastical History, John Lawrence Mosheim, D.D., 1819, 2:43, 52-4; Jeffery Burton Russell's 3 books: Satan: The Early Christian Tradition; Lucifer: The Devil In the Middle Ages; The Prince of Darkness. The Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers, 14:316-20; Fallen Angels, Bernard J. Bamberger 1952.

Further fraternalization of the early Christian temple mysteries is seen in the ceremonies performed by later Christian church leaders who anointed the Christian kings, during coronation ceremonies & crownings.

To become a Christian Knight, in the different Knight Orders that were established, the Church leaders had many of candidates pass through, what was by then, fragmented versions of temple type ceremonies.
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#5 Aug 21, 2008
ORDERS & OATHS OF CHRISTIAN KNIGHTS:

In the rituals of the Knight Orders, many aspects of the earlier Christian mysteries are faternalized.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

To keep these militant Orders under their control, the Clergy caused their Knighted Princes to pass through ceremonies which included political -religious rites of ascension to the throne.

Moreover, before a man would enter into an Order, he would fast, pray, & attend masses, make vows or oaths to protect the Church by fighting for his Lord & King. His Lord & King was considered to be God's "chosen one," this is why some art works show Christ or just "the hand of God" handing down the crown to the King.

Thus, as God's representative on the earth, it was his divine right to rule.(Fragments of washing & anointing, & being crown a king (in the case with the males), or a queen (in the case with the females), is thus preserved, in part, in these later Christian ceremonies of coronations).

During the arming ceremony of new Knights, he is clothed in new garments after a ritualistic bath. When a prince ascends to the throne, there is a coronation ceremony like unto the early Christian anointing rites, or Chrism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anointing

(A rite often expounded upon in the early Christian fathers' writings:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03696b.htm
http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/cyril.php
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310119.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310120.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310121.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310122.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/310123.htm

Barons, Lords, Earls & Knights take part in rites of passage hand grips & tokens, & would perform oaths, or vows to be loyal to the King. These rites are performed on down the line in each level in the political-religious rankings. Thus, in times of war the King calls on his Barons-Lords or Earls to gather their armies of Knights to
fight off invaders or settle conflicts & inner disputes through single combats between Champions.
(Watch the classic movie: El Sid, starring Charles Heston, note the fight between the champions, how Sid makes the King "swear an oath on the holy books," such things passed through the centuries to the courts, & oaths of office, where the right hand is raised up, while the other is placed on the bible to swear to defend the constitution, or "tell the truth," etc.)

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter-da...
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#6 Aug 21, 2008
Concerning Knighthood, Hartman notes that when a man "came of age & it was time for him to become a knight, there was a solemn religious ceremony. The whole night before it, the young squire spent alone praying and meditating in church, kneeling before the altar on which lay his sword, his shield, & his lance. The next morning came a bath.
Then he was clad in fresh new garments as he was to begin a new life--first a snow-white tunic, the
symbol of purity; then a red robe, symbolic of the blood he might be called upon to shed in defense of the oppressed; and over this a black garment, representing the mystery of death. He attended mass and listened to a sermon on his new life and duties. He gave his sword to a priest, who laid it
upon the altar and blessed it. He made solemn vows to defend the Church, be true to the king, & help women in distress, for every knight must be a lover of Christ and a defender of the Church, & his weapons must be consecrated to God's cause.
Then the knight of the highest rank came forward to confer upon him the order of knighthood. The young man knelt before him with clasped hands, and solemnly vowed to uphold religion and chivalry. The lord buckled on the youth's sword with his own hands; his golden spurs and his armor were resented to him; then, tapping him lightly on the shoulders with his sword, the lord pronounced over him the solemn words: "In the name of God, of St. Michael, and of St. George, I dub thee knight. Be valiant, fearless, & loyal." And the young man rose a knight." (Gertrude Hartman's The World We Live In & How It Came To Be,(A Pictured Outline of Man's Progress from the Earliest Days to the Present),(1931 Hartman; NY: The Macmillan Co., 1961), p.127-142.

"The candidate for knighthood must be a Christian, brave, true to his promise, faithful to the Church & his lord, & zealous in defense of the weak, especially of women and orphans. Knighthood might be conferred on the field of battle, but more often it was given during one of the great Church festivals, such as Christmas or Easter. The candidate would go to the priest to have his sword blessed, & would pass the night before the
ceremony in prayer & vigil in the church; then, next day, the priest would receive the oath of the
candidate at the altar, buckle on his sword, & give him a blow with the palm of the hand, the so-called "accolade," adding the words "Be a valiant knight!" Charlton J. H. Hayes, Parker Thomas Moon, & John W. Wayland, World History,(1932, NY: The Macmillan Co., 1939) p. 319.
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#7 Aug 21, 2008
"Two military Orders were created--[as a results of the Crusades] the Knight Templars (1119) to protect
pilgrims & to wage war on infidels; & the Knight Hospitalers (1131) to aid the sick & the poor.
(Diverted from their original purposes, these Orders grew wealthy & powerful, so wealthy & powerful, in fact, that they were destroyed later in the Middle Ages by the kings who envied them & hungered for their wealth.)" Another order was "the Cistercian Order" of which St. Bernard was a member of.(Jack C. Estrin, M.A., Made Simple Self-Teaching Library, World History,(New York, N.Y., Greystone Press: Made Simple Books, Inc., 1957) p. 101.

Got to run, I'll post more on this, if you or others are interested in this.
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#8 Aug 21, 2008
The hand clasping done between Christian Knights paying "homage" to their Lords, Earls, Barons, & Kings is another interesting area I'll cover too!

Since: Jan 08

Saint George, UT

#9 Aug 21, 2008
hand clasps, handshakes, tokens and secret signs are not unique amoung christianity, or any religion let alone organizations.

“"LDS Christian"”

Since: Nov 07

Orem, UT

#10 Aug 22, 2008
MrZip wrote:
hand clasps, handshakes, tokens and secret signs are not unique amoung christianity, or any religion let alone organizations.
Now you are getting it!!!!

The role of handclasps in the Temple is not a modern innovation borrowed from Masonry, but was known to ancient Christians. Further information on the significance of the handclasp in early Christianity is given by Todd Comptom, "The Handclasp and Embrace as Tokens of Recognition," in By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 27 March 1990, John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks, eds., 2 vols.(Salt Lake City and Provo: Deseret Book Co., Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 1990), 1: 620 - 631.). Here is a excerpt (pp. 620-621):

The handclasp continued in early Christian ritual, both gnostic and "orthodox." According to Galatians 2:9, "the right hand of fellowship" (dexias koinoas didonai tini) is given "as a sign of friendship and trust," though this does not necessarily suggest ritual practice, such as we found in the Sabazian and Mithraic mysteries. The handclasp as marriage rite, however, continued in Christian surroundings. The salvific handclasp is nearly the trademark of the iconography of Christ's postcrucifixion descent into Hades. One of the most frequent scenes in this tradition is that of Christ grasping the hands of Adam and Eve to lift them up out of hell and to resurrect them. While sometimes he grasps their wrists,... in other depictions he lifts them with a true dextrarum iunctio. The fifth-century Gospel of Nicodemus describes a true handclasp: "And the Lord ... took the right hand of Adam and went up out of hell (tenens dexteram Adae ascendit ab inferis), and all the saints followed him.... He went therefore into paradise holding our forefather by the hand, and delivered him, and all the righteous, unto Michael the archangel." Here the [handclasp] starts the ascent, continues it, and ends it on the threshold of paradise. A similar handclasp is used in the apocalyptic 1 Enoch: "And the angel Michael,... seizing me by my right hand and lifting me up, led me out into all the secrets of mercy; and he showed me all the secrets of righteousness."

“"LDS Christian"”

Since: Nov 07

Orem, UT

#11 Aug 22, 2008
THE BOOK OF THE PROPHET ISAIAH
CHAPTER 13

2 Lift ye up a banner upon the highbmountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.

“"LDS Christian"”

Since: Nov 07

Orem, UT

#12 Aug 22, 2008
The Knights Templar - part 01/08
&fe ature=related
The Knights Templar - part 02/08
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
The Knights Templar - part 03/08
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
The Knights Templar - part 04/08
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
The Knights Templar - part 05/08
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
The Knights Templar - part 06/08
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
The Knights Templar - part 07/08
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
The Knights Templar - part 08/08
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Since: Jan 08

Saint George, UT

#13 Aug 22, 2008
Hannah Rebekah wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you are getting it!!!!
lol, sweet! now *THATS* the Hannah rebecca that I dig!

“"LDS Christian"”

Since: Nov 07

Orem, UT

#14 Aug 23, 2008
MrZip wrote:
<quoted text>
lol, sweet! now *THATS* the Hannah rebecca that I dig!
Sorry...I'm trying to watch that....but I'm amazed how much you contradict what you say from post to post sometimes and from day to day sometimes. Maybe we all do that to a degree but it makes it hard to understand where you are coming from. So it just makes me wonder if you know where you are coming from exactly. You seem to vacillate!!!
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#15 Aug 23, 2008
Swearing Homage & hand grips:

Swearing oaths to fight for the king, Earl, Baron, Knight Orders, etc. Left over fragments of the early Christian mysteries; in later centuries becoming fraternalized:

http://tenthmedieval.files.wordpress.com/2007...
http://images.google.com/imgres...
http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/data/13030/jd/ft...
http://www.escholarship.org/editions/data/130...
Marriage clasp

http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/data/13030/jd/ft...

Since: Jan 08

Saint George, UT

#16 Aug 23, 2008
Hannah Rebekah wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry...I'm trying to watch that....but I'm amazed how much you contradict what you say from post to post sometimes and from day to day sometimes. Maybe we all do that to a degree but it makes it hard to understand where you are coming from. So it just makes me wonder if you know where you are coming from exactly. You seem to vacillate!!!
you mistake respect for principles. I think ive been very distinct and straightforward with what I believe, and at the same time I can really respect when a person agrees with theirs. Do i have to be Anti EVERYTHING mormon and anti everything you say? I would say that is your problem, and a clue to the fact that you really are a party liner at all costs to defend mormonism at the costs of reason.

You were being funny there. I think thats awesome! Do you mistake that for vascillation and contradiction?

“"LDS Christian"”

Since: Nov 07

Orem, UT

#17 Aug 23, 2008
MrZip wrote:
<quoted text>
you mistake respect for principles. I think ive been very distinct and straightforward with what I believe, and at the same time I can really respect when a person agrees with theirs. Do i have to be Anti EVERYTHING mormon and anti everything you say? I would say that is your problem, and a clue to the fact that you really are a party liner at all costs to defend mormonism at the costs of reason.
You were being funny there. I think thats awesome! Do you mistake that for vascillation and contradiction?
Nope just seeing if you would pick it up as I did your...only I put mine in one post and you spread yours out between different posts. Here's something for you.
I found this interview interesting and it reminded me of a couple of things you have said before and I have questions for you.
Does rationality require feelings?
Is there an objective reality?
Where does one find God?

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

Since: Jan 08

Saint George, UT

#18 Aug 23, 2008
more FAIR, More FARMS. omg, i think I just threw up in my mouth. Like I said, I don't throw tanner or DNA studies at you, because I know automatically that you think theyre BS and biased. Why do you think I want to see mormon apologists? Good lord, especially over.....and over...... and over......

I already have my answer about if theres an objective reality. NOt looking for anything there. Thanks tho. Can you just give me your points of view without throwing long links at me? FAIR is your reality, it certainly isnt mine.
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#19 Aug 23, 2008
Mr. Zip, what makes you think the links are just for you, like your the only reader here. This is the internet, it's open to the world. As I asked you earlier, did you ever read Nibley's Early Christianity & Mormonism? You didn't answer my questions about what is "evidences".
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#20 Aug 23, 2008
But not to get so side track:

Fragments of the early Christian mysteries in later centuries:

The Knight Templars & other Monks & Knight Orders inherited temple type endowments from earlier Christian mysteries, liturgical rites & Masses; wedding ceremonies & ritualistic types of the Militant Christ.

SYMBOLS OF POWER & CONQUEST:

On a door is carved a depiction of Christ's baptism which dates back to before 1065 A.D., in the St. Maria im Kapitol, Cologne. It shows Christ in the river Jordan crushing under his feet "a sea monster from Greek mythology, which may be doing double duty as a symbol of evil crushed by the Saviour." An angel with the traditional baptismal robe, one holding Christ's garment, is seen off to the right of the baptismal scene. Thus, one of the symbols of a victorious King, Queen, or Knight was to depict them crushing their enemies under their feet.

Knights, monks, pilgrims, clergy & those who seen the art works, were inspired by these types of militant imagery. Knights were soldiers of Christ, vowed, or sworn to defend pilgrims, defend their Orders, & the churches.

Another symbol is the cross-banner because in many cases it is also used as weapon. Numerous early to
later Christian art works show Christ on the march defeating the devil & the demonic forces in what
ever realm, or area of the world that Christ marches into. He descends into hell & breaks down the doors or gaits of hell & crushed the devil & defeats Satan & his demonic forces by thrusting them through with his weapon, the cross-banner spear or lance.

Many art works show Christ resting his foot, or standing on the doors of hell which have fallen on the devil. We also see the cross-banner as he ascends into heaven, & as he marches forth into all nations of the earth. Christ is the reigning King of Kings, unconquered Son, & the inspiration for the Christian Knights who also carry this same type of cross banner as they go marching onto the battle field.

With these militant types are always different types hand clasping ceremonies that the clergy have the Knights take part in. The oaths & hand clasps of homage has it's counterpart in how Adam often is on his knees in the homage hand clasping mode when harrowed from hell during Christ's militant descent into hell.

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