“"LDS Christian"”

Since: Nov 07

Indianapolis, IN

#109 Mar 26, 2008
Keith Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
How many Mormon missionaries are there preaching this message?
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that:“they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
Joseph Smith History 1:19
<quoted text>
And LDS missionaries do not fight against the teachings of other churches when they preach the above message? I will gladly put on the shoe of an anti-Mormon if you agree to put on the shoes of an anti-Christian.
You're a joke...do you know how many Protestant statements of the truthfulness of your many, many Traditional Christian churches there are since Martin Luther and the wrongs of the others like Catholics? All Churches believe they are the true Church. If they didn't they really aren't worth being a part of then would they? It would be ridiculous to say, "hey...come and join our Church but hey we've not true."

Here's something that sounds a lot like what take offense but this is you guys.

"Yes, Christianity is the one true religion. That may sound awfully dogmatic and narrow-minded, but the simple truth is that Christianity is the only true religion. Jesus said that He alone was the way to the Father (John 14:6), that He alone revealed the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22). Christians do not go around saying Christianity is the only way because they are arrogant, narrow-minded, stupid, and judgmental. They do so because they believe what Jesus said." Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry (CARM).

I don't take offense at this and it sounds a lot like what God told JS. So get over it.

The following quote by Wilford Woodruff is how we are brought up in the LDS Church...this is a true representation of our views on respecting other religions. Remember, we do have an Article of Faith about religious tolerance written by Joseph Smith.

Wilford Woodruff, an early president of the Church and a contemporary of Joseph Smith taught:

When you go into a neighborhood to preach the Gospel, never attempt to tear down a man’s house, so to speak, before you build him a better one; never, in fact, attack any one’s religion, wherever you go. Be willing to let every man enjoy his own religion. It is his right to do that. If he does not accept your testimony with regard to the Gospel of Christ, that is his affair, and not yours. Do not spend your time in pulling down other sects and parties. We haven’t time to do that. It is never right to do that.(Contributor, August 1895, 636–37)

“"LDS Christian"”

Since: Nov 07

Indianapolis, IN

#110 Mar 26, 2008
Hummm...quite interesting and telling how Christians think of Evangelicals. Quit telling:

Evangelicals have image problem states evangelical leader

"Evangelicalism has become a synonym, in popular understanding, for moralising bigotry, fundamentalism and reactivity," according to the Revd Joel Edwards, general director of the Evangelical Alliance (UK).

He is damning about how evangelicals are perceived generally, saying, "We come across as judgmental and obnoxious. There are plenty of caricatures and misrepresentations out there, but too often we perpetuate them by our actions."

Mr Edwards stresses the EA’s commitment to ‘core theological absolutes,’ but calls for greater compassion in doctrinal debates, saying, "Truth cannot be the exclusive province of conservative evangelicals married to modernity any more than it belongs to the pilgrim culture of the emergent church."

Referring to the Archbishop of Canterbury’s suggestion that terrorism is a form of blasphemy because it suggests God is too weak to look after His own honour, he says, "I think that sometimes we have engaged in a form of verbal terror that has the same roots."

He speaks of the need to "resist the knee-jerk tendency to protest everything… our role is not to monitor mischief but to proclaim this good news that brings spiritual and social transformation to society."

He called for a more positive emphasis, saying he wanted to portray "more of a passion for people, rather than for what people do wrong."
http://revjph.blogspot.com/2006/09/evangelica...

“"LDS Christian"”

Since: Nov 07

Indianapolis, IN

#111 Mar 26, 2008
The Evangelical Christian Wrong
http://www.reclaimjesus.net/index.php...
Words matter. No one understands this more than the evangelical Christian right with their abuse of such critical phrases as "Pro-Life," "family values," "love the sinner, hate the sin," etc., etc., etc. But most of all, their obscene abuse of the word “Jesus” and all he stood for – their abuse of The Great Commandment and the Great Commission. For this reason, it is particularly ironic that they have been dubbed the "evangelical Christian right." Nothing could be wronger than to call them "right." And so it is that henceforth I officially declare that they shall be known within our website family as the "evangelical Christian wrong."

“www.evidencemini stries.org”

Since: Oct 07

San Antonio, TX

#112 Mar 26, 2008
Hannah Rebekah wrote:
He's dogging and weaving to get out of answering you. It's very obvious that he doesn't want to pony up...yeah right...a cool hat but not much of a cowboy.
Dodging? I answered the question six hours before you posted this accusation. The answer is in post #103. I suppose if you never read it, you can always claim that I never answered the question.
larry

Overland Park, KS

#113 Mar 26, 2008
Keith Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you think it is fair to ask me to evaluate something the Tanners said without providing a reference for me? You were kind enough to provide the FAIR reference, but not one to the Tanner talk. Why is that?
I gave you thye date of the Talk. Do I need to go to your house and do the work for you? You asked for the site I got the information from and gave it to you. Have you even looked at the information or are you just dodging me still?
larry

Overland Park, KS

#114 Mar 26, 2008
Keith Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
Larry, do you want to apologize now for calling me a liar or will you wait until after you hear the recording of the threat where Bill Dunn, who claimed to be a retired Texas Ranger, tells me that he is a Danite?
As for ten minutes, geesh guy, give me a break. I've got much more to do than answer questions I have already answered. You know, stuff like feed my kids and answer four phone calls. Oh, and before you ask, no, I do not have proof that I just fed my kids or that I have been on the phone. If I had a picture of our dinner tonight, you would most likely claim that I "photo shopped" it. You are not being reasonable at all.
Again with out PROOF it is nothing more than a false claim. If you had a tape of Temple Security threatening you and saying he is a Danite you would have posted it all over the net to show just how evil the LDS Church is. So until you put out the proof you are just makeing claims to make the LDS Church look bad. I will however in another post post some things about the Danites to show people just how desperate you are.
larry

Overland Park, KS

#115 Mar 26, 2008
Hannah Rebekah wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Rodney,
Read this
http://stayingcurrent.blogspot.com/2005/05/ld...
If things happened the way they said it did then I want both sides of the story and if it happened as Walker claims I want the so called LDS arrested who are giving the LDS Church a black eye and brought to justice so I'd really like the follow up to this story if there is one and if it's true. The Church is not about breaking the laws nor would they condone this type of behavior.
I also remember some other things about Walker implying about security guards getting jumpy at temple openings when ones try to see what's in the other rooms of the Temples they don't show the public on at these Temple Openings. Like wondering off the beaten path and getting snoppy and telling others to try it. It's been awhile since I heard it on one of their recorded Anti-Mormon lectures or if it was on their website. I'll look into it and get back about it just to be sure.
Hannah notice they always seem to be abducted but never raise a word about it in public. How many people if the stories realy happen would accept being arrested with out reading their rights taklen not to a jail but a parking lot and with wiitnesses and not press charges against the cop and sue the city for false arrest. This group would also sue the LDS Church claiming that the cop was working on orders from the LDS Church.
larry

Overland Park, KS

#116 Mar 26, 2008
Keith Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
Dodging? I answered the question six hours before you posted this accusation. The answer is in post #103. I suppose if you never read it, you can always claim that I never answered the question.
Keith there is no post 103. Perhaps Topix deleted it. We would all like to see just how you answered this question. I will then have more examples again from the Tanners and just to give you time to work on the source I will be useing their book Mormonism SHadow or reality.

“www.evidencemini stries.org”

Since: Oct 07

San Antonio, TX

#118 Mar 26, 2008
Larry,
I've tried to post the answer a number of times, both last night and this morning, and am having trouble with Topix posting it. You can see that there was a double post at 102 and 104, but 103 is not seen. I still see it on my screen, but I called a friend and had him look for #103 and he didn't see it either.

I am guessing that the length of the response has something to do with it. I will wait to see if this message posts and if it does, I will break my answer down into smaller posts.

Just be patient. I am not dodging you or playing games. I'm sure I am not the only one who has had trouble with Topix from time to time.
larry

Overland Park, KS

#119 Mar 26, 2008
Who were the Danites?
In 1838 The LDS Church was involved in a conflict with the State of Missouri. A group was formed to fight against the Missourians by Sampson Avard. This group went to Joseph Simth and said they wanted to help protect the LDS Church from the persecution. At this time the state had formed a county for the Saints to live in and made a law that they could not live outside of this county. This law was not constatutinal and many Saints moved and settled out of the county and Non-Mormons distroyed the farms and homes of these groups. Avards group was going to help defend these people. However instead of defending they went on the attack and aburnt homes of Non-LDS. When Joseph Smith learned of this he disbanned the group and excommunicated its leaders. Avard was caught by the Missouians and for a murder he commited and knowing that they wanted Joseph Smith he claimed that Joseph was the leader of the group and he had ordered the murder. This was exactly what they wanted and Avard was let go. From this many people gathered all sorts of claims. The group was often used in Novels as the "bad guy" and is even used this way in Sherlock Holmes. However the group did not exist beyond 1838.

“www.evidencemini stries.org”

Since: Oct 07

San Antonio, TX

#120 Mar 26, 2008
Now, to my answer for your question about the Tanner quote. You never should have brought this up again because this has got to be the absolute weakest argument I have ever seen FAIR give. For those of you following along, Larry wants me to answer this charge.
http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_Early_LDS_Lea ... Thank you for providing the reference.

The argument is that the Tanners are guilty of using partial quotes to prove one thing when the context proves something else. Here is the partial quote used by the Tanners.
“The Lord did not come... But he did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun.,..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 171)”

The claim is that the Tanners are misusing the quote to prove that it was not the Father and Son who told Joseph not to join any of the religious sects, but that it was an angel. They provide the entire quote and believe that it proves that it was Jesus who informed Smith not to join any other religion.
larry

Overland Park, KS

#123 Mar 26, 2008
Keith Walker wrote:
Now, to my answer for your question about the Tanner quote. You never should have brought this up again because this has got to be the absolute weakest argument I have ever seen FAIR give. For those of you following along, Larry wants me to answer this charge.
http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_Early_LDS_Lea ... Thank you for providing the reference.
The argument is that the Tanners are guilty of using partial quotes to prove one thing when the context proves something else. Here is the partial quote used by the Tanners.
“The Lord did not come... But he did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun.,..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 171)”
The claim is that the Tanners are misusing the quote to prove that it was not the Father and Son who told Joseph not to join any of the religious sects, but that it was an angel. They provide the entire quote and believe that it proves that it was Jesus who informed Smith not to join any other religion.
First you have just shown that you do not even read what you are asked. While the quote you spoke of is infact on the site I gave you I spacificaly asked about the Quote by Orson Pratt. Because you clearly are having a problem addressing that quote I will address it for you in my next few posts.
larry

Overland Park, KS

#124 Mar 26, 2008
http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_Early_LDS_Lea...
Here is what I asked Keith Walker about
"Lastly, the following is another quote from Tanner in a talk given in November 8, 1998 in Salt Lake City:

Speaking on Dec. 19, 1869, Orson Pratt taught: "By and by an obscure individual, a young man, rose up, and, in the midst of all Christendom, proclaimed the startling news that God had sent an angel to him;... This young man, some four years afterwards, was visited again by a holy angel." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.13, pp.65-66)"
This was used by the Tanners to say that Orson Pratt did not know about the Official Version of Joseph Smiths first Vision. However is this realy all that Orson Pratt said? NO In my next post I will post the full quote of what Orson Pratt said and let all that read decide for themselves if what the Tanners claim was realy what was said by Orson Pratt.
larry

Overland Park, KS

#125 Mar 26, 2008
Now lets look at what Orson Pratt realy said.
"By and by an obscure individual, a young man, rose up, and, in the midst of all Christendom, proclaimed the startling news that God had sent an angel to him; that through his faith, prayers, and sincere repentance he had beheld a supernatural vision, that he had seen a pillar of fire descend from Heaven, and saw two glorious personages clothed upon with this pillar of fire, whose countenance shone like the sun at noonday; that he heard one of these personages say, pointing to the other,'This is my beloved Son, hear ye him.' This occurred before this young man was fifteen years of age; and it was a startling announcement to make in the midst of a generation so completely given up to the traditions of their fathers; and when this was proclaimed by this young, unlettered boy to the priests and the religious societies in the State of New York, they laughed him to scorn.'What!' said they, "visions and revelations in our day! God speaking to men in our day!" They looked upon him as deluded; they pointed the finger of scorn at him and warned their congregations against him.'The canon of Scripture is closed up; no more communications are to be expected from Heaven. The ancients saw heavenly visions and personages; they heard the voice of the Lord; they were inspired by the Holy Ghost to receive revelations, but behold no such thing is to be given to man in our day, neither has there been for many generations past.' This was the style of the remarks made by religionists forty years ago. This young man, some four years afterwards, was visited again by a holy angel.(Journal of Discourses, Vol.13, pp.65-66)"

The Tanners quote makes it sound like Orsono Pratt is saying that God sent an Angel to Joseph Smith and it was this Angel that told him not join any church and then four years later another angel was sent to JOseph Smith. However 239 wrods were removed. 2339 very important words. In the removed 239 words is the quote "This is my beloved Son, Hear him" Claerly Orson Pratt is speaking of the First Vision when God the Father and Jesus Christ visited young Joseph and as the official version said God addressed Joseph and said "this is my beloved Son, Hear Him". The Tanners removed the 239 words to make the quote say something it did not. I wanted Keith to comment on this because he has in the past rebuked Non-Mormons who have appologized for this kind of action. If he is not willinig to say that the Tanners use of this is wrong that tells people a great deal about him. The fact is he completly side steped the question and infact tried to tell everyone that I had asked about another Quote from the Tanners knowing that he was not telliing the truth.
larry

Overland Park, KS

#126 Mar 26, 2008
Now lets look at the quote Keith tried to say I was asking about. It is infact about Brigham Young not Orson Pratt which shows Keiths first deception in his answer as I specificaly asked aboout Orson Pratt.

"In their book, Mormonism--Shadow or Reality, we find the following statement:

Mormon scholars have been unable to locate any sermon by Brigham Young in which he identifies the personages as God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. As we have shown before, in one sermon Brigham Young said that "The Lord did not come... But he did send his angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun.,..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 171)"
Now for what Brigham realy said I will put my comments in parenthesies to seperate them from the quote
"The Lord did not come with the armies of heaven, in power and great glory, nor send His messengers panoplied (equipped with the complete arms and armor of a warrior)with aught else than the truth of heaven, to communicate to the meek the lowly, the youth of humble origin, the sincere enquirer after the knowledge of God (God di not come with pomp and cercumstance for the whol;e world to see). But He (the nLord Jesus Christ)did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith Jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,(Joseph became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator after the visit of Moroni)and informed him (again the he is Jesus so Jesus sent an angel and Jesus told Joseph) that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong; that they were following the precepts of men instead of the Lord Jesus; that He had a work for him to perform, inasmuch as he should prove faithful before Him." (Journal of Discourses 2:170-171)"
The Tanners again removed part of the quote that they knew did not say what they wanted it to say.
John

Milton, MA

#128 Mar 26, 2008
larry wrote:
<quoted text>
LDS Missionaries do not make it a mission to attack other churchs. If you would realy listen to what they say you would find that that was given in responce to a prayer. They do not go around giving distortions of what other churchs believe and at times out right lies about what other churchs teach. Infact they do not go into the beliefs of other churchs unless asked a question directly. They do not tell people that all members of otheer churchs are going to hell as SO MANY Anti-Mormons do with the LDS Church. Tehy infact teach a messiage that those who have died without the knowledge of the truth will get a chance to learn about it. They teach that every church has some truth in it. Your claim that they attack other churchs shows you distort what the LDS Church teachs. It is very clear that what Joseph was told is not taught as an attack on other churchs but rather a revelation from God. If you look at the Churchs of the time you can see that what Joseph was told was a very accurate discription of CHristian Churchs at that time.
I've been following this conversation for a while and I've had numerous Mormon's come to my door, and I've come to the point where I will no longer tolerate you. You meaning any Mormon's. You say that you do not attack other people's beliefs and you want us to listen to you, but when we bring up points about what we believe or ask you to listen to us, you refuse to listen. You have a double standard, you think it's ok to force your beliefs on everyone else, but when other people want to share their beliefs with you, you are intolerant of their beliefs. To me, this is being anti-Christian, anti-Judaism, anti-Muslim, anti-everything. You have your belief so ingrained in you that you're afraid to listen to anyone else for fear that they might be right, and you might be wrong.

To the point that Keith has no evidence that it was a Mormon that attacked his site, that may be true that he doesn't know for sure. Yet. But I bet that his internet provider has logs that can help the FBI track down these attacks. This is a serious issue and it's quite a coincidence that after this discussion got heated up, then something bad happened to his site. And I bet that if the FBI gets involved the perpetrator will be caught and persecuted with extreme prejudice no matter what religion they follow. If this was a hate crime, that makes it even worse.

If you want respect, you need to earn it. And from what I've read on here, none of you deserve it. And that's why I will no longer tolerate or respect any Mormon or JW.
John

Milton, MA

#129 Mar 26, 2008
Hannah Rebekah wrote:
They must get over the fear first, and feel confidence in their own beliefs before they can accept the possibility that the LDS church also contains good Christian values and that it is a waste of time to fight against it.
Anyone can live by "Christian" values, that doesn't mean they will go to heaven when they die.
Paul

Big Lake, MN

#130 Mar 26, 2008
-Larry, I don't know you but it seems like you're having a hard time believing anyone. I bet that if I was to tell you that your name IS Larry, you would indeed disagree with me.

-Keith and everyone else, to be fair to both sides of the argument, answer and ask questions about the articles posted according to it's context, NOT just one section of it.

-Hannah Rebekah in regards to your post #37, it seems to me like your beliefs had and has to be updated every so often. Why? Please explain. I am not challenging you, I want to know why so many volumes!?

Paul

Big Lake, MN

#131 Mar 26, 2008
And please provide references!!!

Since: Mar 08

Saint Louis, MO

#132 Mar 26, 2008
Ok, it seems odd to jump in at this point, but I've been reading along since the beginning, and it seems to me that Hannah Rebekah has something that is bothering her more than religious differences. Sorry, honey, but it sounds like you have a lot of built up anger and you are just taking it out on a forum where people don't seem real to you because you never hear their voices.

Larry, I appreciate your willingness to discuss the issues, but it seems to me that you have decided what your replies will be before you read what anyone else posts. It's like you read a sentence and post a monologue assuming you know what the rest of the previous poster comments were.

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