Mormons: We are Christians, too

[kickitoff]

Chuck wrote:

The Baptist Version of The Book of Mormon
By Lynn Ridenhour,
Southern Baptist Minister
http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/bapti...
Plan of Redemption
"…Now if it had not been for the plan of redemption, which was laid from the foundation of the world, there could have been no resurrection of the dead…--Alma 9:42
"…if it were possible that our first parents could have gone forth and partaken of the tree of life, they would have been for ever miserable, having no preparatory state; And thus the plan of redemption would have been frustrated…" --Alma 9:44,45
"…And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world…--Alma 9:49
"…God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness; For on such the plan of redemption could have no power, for the works of justice could not be destroyed, according to the supreme goodness of God..." --Alma 9:52,53
What blessed scriptures. What a blessed theme—the plan of redemption!
"…But God did call on men, in the name of his Son,(this being the plan of redemption which was laid,) saying: If ye will repent, and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine only begotten Son…" --Alma 9: 54
"…he expounded unto them the plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world…" --Alma 12:119
"…And Aaron did expound unto him the scriptures, from the creation of Adam, laying the fall of man before him, and their carnal state, and also the plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, through Christ, for all whosoever would believe on his name…" --Alma13:45
"…I would declare unto every soul, as with the voice of thunder, repentance, and the plan of redemption, that they should repent and come unto our God, that there might be no more sorrow upon all the face of the earth…" --Alma 15:53
"…therefore, only unto him that has faith unto repentance, is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption. Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you; yea, cry unto him for mercy; for he is mighty to save…" --Alma 16:217,218
What a verse!
"…I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time, and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you. For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God…" --Alma 16:227,228
"…Is it not as necessary that the plan of redemption should be made known unto this people, as well as unto their children?.." --Alma 19:26
"…And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption,(laying it aside,) as soon as they were dead, their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord…" --Alma 19:92
And now we turn our attention to one of the most central and cardinal Protestant doctrines of all…

Southern Baptist Convention - Response
Mormonism is a Cult, Not Christian

Mormonism is not Christianity, R. Albert Mohler Jr. president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp...

http://www.sbc.net/redirect.asp...

[CTR sucks]

How about we team up a few Bishops and have a go 'round of ask who beats the meat game?

[Chuck]

kickitoff wrote:

<quoted text>
Southern Baptist Convention - Response
Mormonism is a Cult, Not Christian
Mormonism is not Christianity, R. Albert Mohler Jr. president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp...
http://www.sbc.net/redirect.asp...

LDS Statistics:

70% of all LDS members are converts.

Baptists make great Mormons?

In the early 1980s, Southern Baptist Convention leaders discovered—much to their horror—that 40 percent of Mormonism's 217,000 converts in 1980 came from Baptist backgrounds. More than 150 Mormon missionaries had descended on the northern Georgia area alone, a Southern Baptist magazine noted warily in 1982, and they found Southern Baptists among their most promising targets. When the Mormon Church built temples in the early '80s in Atlanta and Dallas, two of Southern Baptism's most important hubs, it was as if the Mormon Church had thrown down the gauntlet in an arms race between two of the most missionary-minded faiths. Mormonism was declaring its permanent presence in the American South, where Southern Baptism enjoyed status as the de facto religion.

And the SBC got serious about tempering the expansion of what was becoming the fastest-growing religion in the world. They developed programs, trained pastors, hosted Mormonism-awareness conferences, and published articles to help spread the message to Southern Baptists that Mormonism was a dangerous cult religion they had to avoid. The SBC's Sunday School Board developed an instruction kit, "The Christian Confronting the Cults," that covered five religious groups: the Mormon Church, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Worldwide Church of God, the Unification Church (the Moonies), and Christian Scientists. The book quickly became the Sunday School Board's top-selling item.

The Baptist Film Centers even purged two films produced by Brigham Young University from its distribution lists. Neither film addressed doctrinal issues, but the Southern Baptist Convention dropped the titles so as not to appear approving of Mormon-produced messages.

All of these efforts against Mormonism, an SBC magazine explained, were "to help Baptists witness to Mormons without becoming 'Mormonized' themselves."

http://www.slate.com/id/2180391/

[Chuck]

kickitoff wrote:

<quoted text>
Southern Baptist Convention - Response
Mormonism is a Cult, Not Christian
Mormonism is not Christianity, R. Albert Mohler Jr. president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp...
http://www.sbc.net/redirect.asp...

Yeah, noticed how Baptist Convention used our stuff. LOL
The numbers are higher than the ones just mentioned, more like 75-80 percent. Looks like the leaders have enlisted your help to help with the "Sheep Stealing". I guess, if it were about my livelihood I'd be all upset too.
Maybe these converts know something that the Evangelicals haven't taken the time to find out about, they only try to find angles to bear false witnesses. Real Christlike.

Here is an excerpt from this book written by some EVs called ‘The New Mormon Challenge.’

Almost all converts to Mormonism come from a nominally Christian background. I know of no scientific studies that have determine the precise makeup of the religious background of LDS converts, but according to several “eyeball” estimates I have seen or heard reported, 75-80 percent of Mormon converts come from specifically Protestant backgrounds.(It should be noted, however, that the proportion of converts from Catholic backgrounds is rapidly growing.) A well-known saying within LDS circles, based on the average size of a Baptist church in America, is “We baptize a Baptist church every week.” Whatever the actual figures are, the fact is that far more people convert to Mormonism from evangelical churches that vice versa. Second, given the current levels of biblical and theological literacy in evangelical churches and the kinds of converts produced by certain segments of the church growth movement, I am skeptical that evangelicalism is growing in the right kind of way to stave off groups like the Mormons. An increasingly theologically illiterate laity and an entertainment-focused pastoral ministry opens wide the doors of opportunity for Mormonism and other heterodox movements to attract converts from our churches.(pg. 67)

[kickitoff]

Chuck wrote:

<quoted text>
LDS Statistics:
70% of all LDS members are converts.
Baptists make great Mormons?
In the early 1980s, Southern Baptist Convention leaders discovered—much to their horror—that 40 percent of Mormonism's 217,000 converts in 1980 came from Baptist backgrounds. More than 150 Mormon missionaries had descended on the northern Georgia area alone, a Southern Baptist magazine noted warily in 1982, and they found Southern Baptists among their most promising targets. When the Mormon Church built temples in the early '80s in Atlanta and Dallas, two of Southern Baptism's most important hubs, it was as if the Mormon Church had thrown down the gauntlet in an arms race between two of the most missionary-minded faiths. Mormonism was declaring its permanent presence in the American South, where Southern Baptism enjoyed status as the de facto religion.
And the SBC got serious about tempering the expansion of what was becoming the fastest-growing religion in the world. They developed programs, trained pastors, hosted Mormonism-awareness conferences, and published articles to help spread the message to Southern Baptists that Mormonism was a dangerous cult religion they had to avoid. The SBC's Sunday School Board developed an instruction kit, "The Christian Confronting the Cults," that covered five religious groups: the Mormon Church, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Worldwide Church of God, the Unification Church (the Moonies), and Christian Scientists. The book quickly became the Sunday School Board's top-selling item.
The Baptist Film Centers even purged two films produced by Brigham Young University from its distribution lists. Neither film addressed doctrinal issues, but the Southern Baptist Convention dropped the titles so as not to appear approving of Mormon-produced messages.
All of these efforts against Mormonism, an SBC magazine explained, were "to help Baptists witness to Mormons without becoming 'Mormonized' themselves."
http://www.slate.com/id/2180391/

Mormans have their share of defectors:

http://www.exmormon.org/

[FYI]

This is what these EVs had to say on this topic:

Mormon Apologetic, Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?
Paul Owen and Carl Mosser
http://www.forananswer.org/Top_LDS/Evangelica...

II. What Needs to be Done: Some Proposals The evangelical world needs to wake up and respond to contemporary Mormon scholarship. If not, we will lose the battle without ever knowing it. Our suggestions are as follows: First, evangelicals need to overcome inaccurate presuppositions about Mormonism. Second, evangelical
counter-cultists need to refer LDS scholarship that is beyond their ability to rebut, to qualified persons. Third, evangelical academicians need to make Mormonism, or some aspects of it, an area of professional interest. Fourth,
evangelical publishers need to cease publishing works that are uninformed, misleading or otherwise inadequate. Fifth, scholars in the evangelical community ought to collaborate in several books addressing the issues raised in this paper. Related to this, professional journals should encoruage articles on these same topics. Finally, might we suggest that members of organizations such as the Evangelical Theological Society consider forming Mormonism Study Groups. The fact is that the growth of Mormonism is outpacing even the highest predictions
of professional sociologists of religion, and is on its way, within eighty years, to becoming the first world-religion since Islam in the seventh century. With such growth, the needs expressed in this paper will become ever
more pressing as the twenty-first century approaches.

[kickitoff]

Largest 25 Denominations/Communions from the 2007 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches.

1. The Catholic Church, 69,135,254 members.

2. The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,270,315 members.

3. The United Methodist Church, 8,075,010 members,

4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5,690,672 members.

__________

#2 SBC 16.27 Million Members

#4 LDS 5.69 Million Members

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fa...

[Chuck]

kickitoff wrote:

<quoted text>
Mormans have their share of defectors:
http://www.exmormon.org/

You are absolutely right and I could give more websites than this one and you have probably seen some ex-Mormons on this forum. But according to Evangelical leaders there are far few leaving compared to the many that are converting. Most of the converts I've talked to throughout the years and of the many things they could shared one was that they could not reconcile the bigotry, hatred and un-Christlike they were to others that believed differently than they did. They knew that Christ was ridiculed for being with the sinners and others and never did he treat them badly. Never an unkind word, always like what he always taught such as the Sermon on the Mount or the Golden Rule. I think the one Baptist Minister who discovered the Book of Mormon has the right idea...and he didn't steal it.

[Chuck]

kickitoff wrote:

Largest 25 Denominations/Communions from the 2007 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches.
1. The Catholic Church, 69,135,254 members.
2. The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,270,315 members.
3. The United Methodist Church, 8,075,010 members,
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5,690,672 members.
__________
#2 SBC 16.27 Million Members
#4 LDS 5.69 Million Members
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fa...

I noticed you left off the increase.
For
2. The Southern Baptist Convention, 16,270,315 members, reporting an increase of .02 percent.
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5,690,672 members, reporting an increase of 1.63 percent.

It is all about money and "sheepstealing."

"Less Prophets and more Profits" is their de facto motto.

[Prophecy]

FUNNY THING ABOUT BAPTIST THEY DON"T BELIEVE
IN A PRE EXISTENSE, HOW SAD - IS THAT ??

[Chuck]

“the 4 percent panic attack”
Evangelicals Fear the Loss of Their Teenagers
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/06/us/06evange...
Despite their packed megachurches, their political clout and their increasing visibility on the national stage, evangelical Christian leaders are warning one another that their teenagers are abandoning the faith in droves.
At an unusual series of leadership meetings in 44 cities this fall, more than 6,000 pastors are hearing dire forecasts from some of the biggest names in the conservative evangelical movement.
Their alarm has been stoked by a highly suspect claim that if current trends continue, only 4 percent of teenagers will be “Bible-believing Christians” as adults. That would be a sharp decline compared with 35 percent of the current generation of baby boomers, and before that, 65 percent of the World War II generation.
While some critics say the statistics are greatly exaggerated (one evangelical magazine for youth ministers dubbed it “the 4 percent panic attack”), there is widespread consensus among evangelical leaders that they risk losing their teenagers.
“I’m looking at the data,” said Ron Luce, who organized the meetings and founded Teen Mania, a 20-year-old youth ministry,“and we’ve become post-Christian America, like post-Christian Europe. We’ve been working as hard as we know how to work — everyone in youth ministry is working hard — but we’re losing.”

[Queenie]

Queenie wrote:

The Apostle Paul wrote..."When they knew God they glorified Him not as God, neither were they thankful; but became vain in their imaginations and their foolish heart was darkened."
Jesus, the faithful One, the confidence we have, the trust we hold, the hope we carry rest in His faithfulness. He has the authority to accomplish all, He has spoken. His power is limitless...His character changeless...His love endless!
Our one true God and Father, build our faith so we worship You in the just, righteous, merciful and forgiving image You have given us in Christ Jesus, our Lord.+

Just a reminder...

"For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding". Proverbs 2:6

His power is limitless, His character changeless, His love endless!

[Chuck]

Queenie wrote:

<quoted text>
Just a reminder...
"For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding". Proverbs 2:6
His power is limitless, His character changeless, His love endless!

Queenie,
You have a nugget there and maybe you could write a book on the power of 'His love that is endless!'
I bet if the Evangelicals would put an end to their "cult inquisistion" they would reflect the love of Christ and their Churches would fill back up again and they would bring more souls to Christ. I have seen many Evangelicals who are speaking out against the counter-cult movements because they see that its not working. But the ones in the trenches haven't got that message yet, I guess.
God bless

[JIROBBI]

FYI wrote:

<quoted text>
So excuse me is I don't understand but are you saying that Jesus, The Word, he is the one who overshadowed his own mother Mary? That sounds more absurd than what we believe. We are clear that Jesus, The Word, is the only 'begotten son in the flesh.' of God the Father. Not some type of incest by your three in one God. My apologies if I got it wrong but that to me is what you are implying as this God is 'all in one'.

No one named Jesus existed until after God placed His word in Mary and the Result was, a body of flesh which came from Mary, and the Word of God, which came from God, was born that fateful night.

God existed, and His Word existed, and Mary existed, prior to that night. After that night we had something new on the scene that had never existed, God's Word living in a body of flesh as you and I have.

What you have is a lack of Spiritual understanding. You view everything in the eyes of Flesh. You think in terms of how we make children, one man and one woman come together in the flesh and produce a child. That is not the way this happened.

God could have created a body of flesh for His word to live in out of the dust of the ground.

God needed to kin Himself to man in order to be his kinsman redeemer, so Mary was chosen as the flesh side of this kinship.

All God had to do was to speak and His Word united with the flesh of Mary and Jesus was born. His Word was the power behind everything that God had ever done. You see in terms of beginning and end, God is the Beginning and End of Everything and had no beginning as we understand Beginning.

Mormons attempt to invent God in their own terms of understanding.

You prove your lack of understanding when you attempt to view the physical Jesus as being in the image of the Father. No, if one only saw the physical man Jesus he would never see God in Him. God cannot be view in terms of a physical man. God lived in a physical man as a means of establishing kinship in order to redeem and restore man to a relationship with Him.

No Physical Man can be everywhere at the same time, Jesus could not be everywhere, God placed limits on His very own Son. It is a mind twister, but God is everywhere at the same time and at that time limited His Son to time and place.

The Word of God was not greater than the mind of God. One might consider the Word of God what comes out of the mind of God. Everything must start in the Mind of God before it is spoken into the world outside the mind of God.

Thus we have Mind, Word Spoken, and Spirit thereof as it fills everything after it has comeforth from the Mind of God.

Simple when one sees that the Mind of God is first, then what leaves the Mind is the Word that is Spoken. What is spoken then fills everything as the Spirit of what was Thought and then Spoken.

One God, speaks the Word and the result is the Spirit of what was spoken which has the power of God behind it to be sure that is will be done. This word lived in a body of flesh and revealed the mind of God to the world, not the physical apperance of God.

[Chuck]

This was on a forum where Evangelicals were attacking Lynn Ridenhour, a Southern Baptist Minister. I think his words are so prophetic. Hope that word doesn't offend anyone. But I think he has a real key to his religion and that is the love of Christ and tolerance. I have real respect for a man like this.
http://www.concernedchristians.org/board/view...

Bob, legalism is legalism.

I said:

"...To be precise, I take that to mean--if I say to you “trust Jesus,” and, O, by the way—you must become a Baptist. That’s preaching “another gospel.”

Likewise, if I say to my LDS brothers and sisters,“trust Jesus,” and no longer be a Mormon, that too is preaching “another gospel.”

In ministering the gospel, I do not believe any of us are to make additional demands upon our hearers. It is legealistic of me to demand that you "love Jesus...and be a Baptist." Or "love Jesus...and not remain a Mormon." In doing so, we're guilty of what the Judiazers were doing in Paul's day. And Paul says--we're preaching "another gospel" if we do so. We're not proclaiming the gospel of grace. There's no "good news" and/or freedom in making demands that place a person in bondage. You wouldn't want me to tell you--Bob, you can love Jesus, but I insist you become a Catholic. Or else suffer the consequence. That's not "good news."

You wouldn't, on the other hand, mind my telling you--look to Jesus and be free. That IS good news.

I'm saying--any additional demand placed upon a brother or sister (or unbeliever, for that matter) other than to love Jesus is preaching "another gospel." I hate to say it, but we evangelicals, by making demands on our LDS brothers and sisters, are the guilty ones for preaching "another gospel." It's that same spirit at work that drives Judiazing--which was so prevelant in Jerusalem during Paul's day. There was a sect of conservative Jews that did not want to give up their demands (requirements) for becoming a Christian. Come to Christ, they said, but keep your rite of circumcision.

Sadly, that same spirit is still alive among us today. Come to Christ, but give up your LDS church membership. No difference. Same legalistic spirit. Both preach "another gospel" other than the grace of God.

When I minister, I try and be ever so careful to simply lift up Christ and Him crucified. That's it. That's all I'm interested in. I leave the results to the hearers and to the Holy Spirit. If I do that as I minister, I have His promise--He will draw all men unto himself.

It's simple--and that's why it's profound: the power of the gospel lies in its proclamation, not its explanation. When we reduce the gospel to explaining and debating and contending, the power to impress and convert the human heart tends to leak out like a baloon that's been punctured with a slow leak.

And for that very cause, I may or may not engage you. I'm not interested in debating the precious gospel. I'm interested in living it. And sharing it.

Lynn

[Queenie]

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Here's the gift--eternal life. Christ's death and resurrection provide the gift. The price brought Him down from heaven to become one with us, to become sin for us, to accept the wage for us, to suffer hell on the cross and die for us, and to rise again--all to earn and proclaim the gift for us. The gift is forgiveness, newness of life, resurrection of the body and eternity with God in heaven. It is ours now through faith in Jesus and it goes on forever.

[Binah]

To All,
Have a Happy New Year!! I love this time of year to ponder and reflect and then as most do resolve to be better...which we all can through the love of our Savior, Jesus Christ. I love truths wherever they come from. Earlier this year I came across this special Judaic teaching called the 'Lashon Ha-Ra' and have thought a lot about it since then...like what can I learn and how can I apply it to my life. May the Lord bless others through all of us with the truths taught from the 'Lashon Ha-Ra.'
http://www.jewfaq.org/speech.htm
God Bless,
Binah

[Prophecy]

Have a Happy New Year ! Convert to the TRUTH !!

[JIROBBI]

Chuck wrote:

<quoted text>
Queenie,
You have a nugget there and maybe you could write a book on the power of 'His love that is endless!'
I bet if the Evangelicals would put an end to their "cult inquisistion" they would reflect the love of Christ and their Churches would fill back up again and they would bring more souls to Christ. I have seen many Evangelicals who are speaking out against the counter-cult movements because they see that its not working. But the ones in the trenches haven't got that message yet, I guess.
God bless

Yes, indeed, they might be filled again. People can fill Churches with self help ideas and the like but Jesus will have no part of that.

God does love. He loves those who come to Him as little Children, he despises the wise in their own eyes.

This is not about some mushy love. This is about the truth and the complete and total leaning of one's self on God and His way of Salvation.

Many have reinvented God's Way but god has not. He has one way and for those who will completely lean on that He will move in and produce Fruit of the Spirit. The same life that lived in Jesus will live in His people and produce the life of Christ in them.

Love at any cost is nothing. Love for Him will produce Love for the Saints. I did say saints, not counterfiet Christians.

Expose the Teachers of False Gospel and like Paul, when we flush them out let them be Accursed (God Damned). Paul said it twice. True christians will be happy to point out teachers of False Gospel. That is the highest form of Love.

That is Love for Christ and Love for the Gospel. Many think that God is trembling and waiting to be accepted by whoever will according to their version of the Gospel. He is not.

He has extended His offer to those who have no other hope. Those children who have made it to the end of their way and are running to His way.

In this New Covenant He has promised to write His ways on the hearts of His people. That is the promise of the New Covenant sealed in His Blood.

[Mohan]

kickitoff wrote:

<quoted text>
Mormans have their share of defectors:

Yes we do lose some. Like you, we believe this Gospel of Jesus Christ is so important and beneficial that all people everywhere should learn of it and gain a testimony and live it to the fullest. But sadly all do not. Some leave the fold. The parable of the ten virgins illustrates that only half of those who remain members of Christs Church will be wise. The other half will foolishly be unprepared for the feast with the Lord.

Everyone who comes in from other faiths into this Church come here because they see something here that they long for, but many also later find it too restrictive, or they see the usual religious hypocrites, and this is too much for them to take and they leave. But we are trying to help retain them better. We really appreciate those who come to us from religious backgrounds who really grow in their testimony and really end up contributing. They are the ones who stay. But all are precious, and each is a child of God. We are trying to teach them better and place them into situations where they can have spiritual experiences. This is where testimony and faith are build, not in science, archeology, or physical proofs. It is spiritual proof that holds a person true to the faith; the burning in the heart, the still small voice, the "warm" feelings, the more sure word of prophecy which occurs one individual at a time.