Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#322 Jul 8, 2008
DARKNESS UPON THE EARTH BEFORE CHRIST’S VISITS

Ezekiel:“And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, & make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, & the moon shall not give her light. All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, & set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God. I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known.” Ezekiel 32:7—9; 34:11-12

In his response to early anti-Christians among the Heathen, Arnobius, writing about A.D. 297—303, says this, about what happened during Christ’s death:“But when, freed from the body,... He allowed Himself to be seen, & let it be known how great He was, all the elements of the universe bewildered by the strange events were thrown into confusion. An earthquake shook the world, the sea was heaved up from its depths, the heaven was shrouded in darkness, the sun’s fiery blaze was checked, & his heat became moderate; for what else could occur when He was discovered to be God who heretofore was reckoned one of us?...”

He then follows this by pointing out that numerous people saw these things. And who were they who did witness these events?“...Tribes, people, nations, & that incredulous human race...”

Moreover, he points out that even the early anti-Christians among the Heathens knew that such events were recorded, but that they didn’t believe them:“But if this record of events is false, as you say, how comes it that in so short a time the whole world has been filled with such a religion? or how could nations dwelling widely apart, & separated by climate & by convexities of heaven, unite in one conclusion?”

Further on he continues:“...Nay, because they saw all these things to be done by Christ Himself & by His apostles, who being sent throughout the whole world carried with them the blessings of the Father...” ANF 6:405—7, 425—26; 7 Books of Arnobius Against The Heathen, Adversus Gentes, I: 53—55

Thus, among the tribes, peoples, nations, & those of the human race which witnessed these events. Among all these, were many people throughout the whole earth which Christ & his apostles were sent to, during their sojourn among the nations.

In the LDS' Book of Mormon, the Ancient American prophet Samuel the Lamanite, about six B.C., prophesied about a number of signs which the people were to look for. Hence,“in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened & refuse to give his light unto you; & also the moon & the stars; & there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of 3 days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead."

At the time that Christ dies there shall be thunderings, lightnings for many hours; the earth shall shake & tremble; rocks shall be broken up. After predicting other types of destructions to come, he says that the darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for 3 days. Helaman 14:20—27.
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#323 Jul 8, 2008
In Christmas lore & traditions, lighting the way for the wandering Christ-child, Christkindl (German for Christ-child), on a world wide trek during Christmas eves; are the roots behind why billions of lights are put up. Plus why, earlier, candles in windows were placed to light his way.

In Finland, during Christmas, lit pine wood torches & a pine carpet is put down for the Christ-child to walk on when he passes through. Thus, light was what guides the wandering Christ on his world wide trek.

http://covertcosmiccruisers.com/

In earlier Christian doctrine, later legendized, Christ is the light that shines in the darkness of the underworld to free the captive spirits held there. For they that dwell in the 'valley of the shadow of death,' upon them hath the light shined!

“I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, & will hold thine hand, & will keep thee, & give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, & them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.”(Isa. 9:2; 42:6-7; Eph. 4:7-10; 1 Pet. 3:15-22; 4:5-6).

He is the Light that lights up everywhere he visits, during his victory march & glorious manifestations amongst the nations.

Origen of Alexandria A.D. 185-230-254, in response to the early anti-Christian, Celsus, "the Christ of God thus shows His superiority to all rulers by entering into their several provinces, & summoning men out of them to be subject to Himself" ANF 4:641, Origen Against Celsus, Bk. 8, ch. 4.

The Catholic historian, P. Dee Roo, tells of an old Christian legend, how that Christ, "during the forty days between his resurrection and his ascension, walked with unequal giant strides over the earth, and that wherever he set down his foot a church must be built in the sequel of time. Should this pious story be truthful, it would be evident that Christ strode over our hemisphere in many directions." P. De Roo, History of America Before Columbus, According to Documents & approved Authors,(Philadelphia & London: J. B. Lippincott Co., 1900), 1:205.
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#324 Jul 8, 2008
One of the trade marks of his visitations is to have people come forth & feel his wounds. Thus hand & wrist grip greetings became the traditional ways that Christ is greeted, or greets people he visits or liberates during his ascension out of hell, or during his sojourn amongst the nations.

http://www.allartclassic.com/img/Michelangelo...

God's or Christ's arm of mercy is extended to them. When this happens, they were to 'cleave unto God as he cleaveth unto them,' in so doing this, he would redeem & rescue them out of bondage. Psalms 86:12-17; 88:9; 138:8—10; 143:6—11; Book of Mormon, Jacob 6:4—13; Mosiah 15:30—31; 16:1—12.

Russian painter, Mikhail Nesterov passed down to us these earlier ways in which the wandering Christ was greeted by hand & wrist grips. "The Way to Christ," dated 1908—11, shows him grasping the hands of those who bowed down before him, as he is visiting people in Russia. Another version of his 1896 work, dated 1901—5, is entitled: Holy Russia.

Alla Rusakova, Mikhail NESTEROV,(Leningrad, Russia: Aurora Art Publishers, 1990), 15—18, Cat.#203; Linda J. Ivanits, Russian Folk Belief,(Armonk, NY; Lon. Eng.: M.E. Sharpe, Inc., 1989), p. 25, nt.35, p. 211 & 235, Afanas'ev, A. N. Narodnye russkie skazki i legendy. 2 Vols.(Berlin: Ladyzhnikov, 1922), p. 464.

http://www.allartclassic.com/img/Mikhail_Vasi...

http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/...

One of Saint Benedict's rules for the reception of guests was that of seeing Christ in all who come to the monastery. "Let all guests that come be received as Christ Himself, for He will say, "I was a stranger and you took Me in."

Thus, "the recognition of Christ in the person of the guest is an ideal which necessarily recommended itself forcibly to early Christian monasticism." Special care and solicitude was to be shown in the reception of the poor and of pilgrims, because in them Christ is more received. Thus, they were to always see in their guests the representative of Christ in those who knock at their door.(Dom Hubert Van Zeller, The Holy Rule, Notes on St. Benedict's Legislation for Monks,(New York: Sheed & Ward, 1958), pp. 30-31, 222, 244-6, 330-1, 334, & 430).

Fra Angelico, Giovanni Guido, A.D. 1387-1455, depicts Christ's descent into limbo & the Pilgrim in a 1440 fresco at the Monastery of San Marco, Florence, Italy. The hand grasping greeting, "secret sign of the cross," is based on Benedict's rule.

http://wahooart.com/A55A04/w.nsf/3e75729998cd... $FILE/Fra%20Angelico%20-%20Chr ist%20as%20Pilgrim%20Received% 20by%20Two%20Dominicans.JPG

http://romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_ca...

Albert E. Bailey,(Director of Religious Education Worcester Academy, Mass., 1916), The Gospel In
Art,(Boston & Chicago: Pilgrim Press), p. 382-385, 438-444).
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#325 Jul 8, 2008
Numerous ancient American, & early Christian sources, legends & traditions speak of a time of darkness that covered the earth while Christ suffered, died, & descended into the underworld.

After Christ lit up the underworld, Christ,'the Light of the world,' rose again on a darkened world as he shows his glorious resurrected body to numerous groups of people throughout the world.

In earlier centuries, Christ knocks on the doors of hell, or in some cases, kicks them down; or his glory bursts & breaks the doors or gaits down; which is why he is often depicted standing on doors, with bolts & parts of the busted down doors of hell, limbo, hades, purgatory, the underworld gaits scattered all over.

Under them is a fallen monstrous demon or devil, or personified hell crushed, defeated, stabbed with the cross lance, under Christ's victorious feet. The host of the dead trample over the doors & devil, or monstrous dragon-demon, as they rush to freedom.



Tertullian presents this imagery, plus how Christ passes through the doors & gaits of all nations, & even the door to the heart. Christ does this to show his superior abilities & powers to rule the whole world, unlike the earthly kings & Leaders who couldn't rule beyond the boundaries of their Kingdoms. Tertullian presents hand grips too in Christ going throughout the nations: "For whose right hand does God the Father hold but Christ's His Son?--whom all nations have heard, that is, whom all nations have believed.”

ANF 3:157-8, chap. 7, Tertullian A.D. 145-220, An Answer To The Jews; Tertullian, Adversus Judaeos, vol.2 of Patrologiae Latina, 650; The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 4: 609, & 641, Origen Against Celsus.

In later centuries, this imagery of Christ knocking on doors during his world wide treks is part of Christmas lore, legends & art works.

Christ, in the darkness as the light of the world, travels about the world to test the world to see who will greet him, let him in. In some cases, part of the test is for him to appear in different guises, such as an old ugly woman, leper, child, pilgrim, peasant, noble, gardener, man of sorrows, etc., etc.

He comes, knocks on the door asking for assistance,(Matthew 25), it's a test to see if people will welcome him in & help what to them appears to be a stranger, etc. Christ's door knocking is illustrated in numerous art works interpreted differently.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3098/256918521...

http://sp1.yt-thm-a04.yimg.com/image/25/m8/40...

http://sp1.yt-thm-a03.yimg.com/image/25/m2/24...

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0S0203TynNITdAA2bG... **http%3A//www.artunframed.com /images/artmis34/hunt88.jpg

http://www.mysticlightpress.com/images/web_2....

http://www.allartclassic.com/img/Wiliam_Holma...

http://www.allartclassic.com/img/Herbert_Gust...

ZZ Top, a rock blues band, even have a song which lyrics seems to tap into these traditions, entitled: Jesus Just Left Chicago. He travels all over America.

http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#326 Jul 9, 2008
Ancient Americas' traditions & records about Christ's world wide trek:

While Christ was suffering, a great storm arose in the Americas. Terrible thunderings,“lightnings,” earth quakes, fire, & "whirlwinds," which caused great destruction to come upon the land. Some cities burned with fire, others sunk into the depths of the sea; others buried. Some people were carried away in the "whirlwinds."

Later traditions, during the date “4 Wind” which was the beginning of the 2nd new age, Quetzalcoatl is defeated by Tezcatlipoca, & “became a hurricane & carried away many people.”

Book of Mormon says that great darkness followed this great storm, which may have been caused by dust, and thick clouds of volcanic ash which blocked the sun light, & that there were people carried away in the whirl winds. 3 Nephi 8:3—20, 23

Christ "passing through" was a time of "the cloudy & dark day," as Ezekiel had prophesied (Ezekiel 34:12).

Dr. Bruce W. Warren points out that the time of darkness, & the destruction mentioned in The Book of Mormon coincides with not only traditions, & legends, but also, with archaeological findings, ancient American documents, & calendar dates. These different areas of research & evidences all point to the fact that there was a time of great destruction & darkness during the first days of a new year, or about the time of Christ’s death on the cross.

Warren points out that Radio carbon dating, dated the volcanic ash, discovered in Mesoamerica, to about the time of Christ’s death. Some of the plants & crops found preserved in the ash suggests that volcanic activities took place in the early spring.

While the Mayan corn god was Yum Kaax, among the later Aztecs, their god of maize was Cinteotl, to which the people offered their blood to every April.

According to traditions, and the calendar dates, these ancient Americans give the date of the darkness, and destruction as taking place during the first days of a new year. During which time the death, ascension out of the underworld, or resurrection, and the arrival of the Great White God took place too. Hence, when Quetzalcoatl “died, dawn did not appear for four days, because he had gone to dwell among the dead.” The new year for these ancient Americans started in the spring, or in April. The start of new years was spring, for many ancient American & Indian cultures.
Ixtlilxochitl, 15th century Mayan Prince, wrote that their legends say that there was an eclipse of the sun & the moon. And that the “earth shook, the rocks broke into pieces & many other things & signs came to pass. These things occurred during the time our Lord, Jesus Christ, reigned on the earth and they say it came about during the first days of the year.”

Toltec traditions say the sun & moon were eclipsed, earth shook, rocks were thrashed, broken up; many other signs happened too. No one died as a result of this destruction that happened about the same time that Christ was suffering on the cross.

Calendar dates in The Book of Mormon, match up with “7 Manik” day symbol in the Maya calender system. This symbol, a wounded hand, is grasping. The thumb & pointer finger almost touch, but don’t, while the other fingers are curled in too. In these types of grasping hands symbols are, as some have suggested, nail mark wounds in the middle of the hands. While in others, the marks appear in wrist areas. These types of symbols are on the short count wheel in the 260-day Maya calender. They may also be connected with the ancient Americas’ Fair God’s death, descent into the underworld, & also his resurrection.
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#327 Jul 9, 2008
Sources:

Lord Kingsborough, Antiquities of Mexico; William L. Fash, Scribes, Warriors & Kings, The City of Copan & the Ancient Maya,(New York, New York: Thames & Hudson, ltd., London, 1991), 28— 33, 86— 87.

Dr. Bruce Warren, KTKK 630 AM Radio, December 4, 1988

Daniel Brinton, Myths of the New World (New York, 1868), Cronica Mexicana, Fernando Alvarado Tezozmoc. Maria—Gabriele Wosien, 1974; Tedlock, Popol Vuh, p. 146; Churchward, The Signs and Symbols Of Primordial Man, p. 331, fig. 134,—A. Michael D. Coe, The Maya,(New York, New York: Thames and Hudson, 1966, 1980, & 1984), pp. 43, 155—56.

http://research.famsi.org/uploads/mayavase/hi...

http://www.darkmother.com/ss7.gif

http://www.famsi.org/research/kerr/articles/h...

Note the circle on the hand being clasped in this Mayan work.

http://www.famsi.org/research/kerr/articles/h...

http://www.mesoweb.com/features/bassie/corn/m...
See figure 2 K4681, Mayan resurrection thumb in the palm grips.

Monteverdi, The Book of Art, vol. 2, Italian Art To 1850, Filippino Lippi, The Madonna Appearing to St. Bernard, A.D. 1486, Florence, Badia, background scene of monks greeting each other with a hand clasp.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thum...
Justin Martyr Jr

United States

#328 Jul 9, 2008
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18503/18503-h/...

Christ comes in at the door: PEACE BE TO THIS HOUSE"
"If any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me." Rev. 3:20.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18503/18503-h/...

Hand clasp with apostles as he commissions them to go forth & preach to all the world. Mark 16:15

http://search.netscape.com/search/imageDetail...
Numerous descent into hell art works.
TexBloodOrange

Spring, TX

#329 Jul 15, 2008
It's just like see Hannah Rebekah/Binah.
Justin Martyr Jr

Draper, UT

#330 Jul 17, 2008
To Tex, or t-rex.

At least we have historical evidences to offer, have done our home work, read some books, & can cite the research we've done on the different topics here.

Why don't you have something good to offer, or some kind of counter evidences, & sources to the different threads? Why do you only like to leave little dung heaps here & there throughout each topic thread?
DeGuello

Spring, TX

#331 Jul 30, 2008
It's stupid to obsess over something that you will never be able to mentally fathom or even attempt to explain.
123CandS

Kailua Kona, HI

#332 Dec 12, 2008
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter-da...
larry wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophets...
This site will give you a good long answer to your question. The short Answer is that I hear what a person says I than study it out in my mind and then ask God if it is correct. This proses includes looking at is this a THUS SAITH THE LORD kind of thing or a THIS IS MY OPPINION kind of thing. Also is it a this will happen in this way at this time or is it left open.
~~~ I don't know what you think your "batting average" might be or if you have kept track (of the number of things you get wrong using this method), but if it's good, the LDS general authorities could use you; if they're not interested in you, the stock market forecasters or prophets could probably use you. However there's a scripture in Deuteronomy chapter 13 that describes what false prophets are, and what should be done with them.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/13.html
123CandS

Kailua Kona, HI

#333 Dec 12, 2008
(location of statement is:)
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/latter-da... (#197)
larry wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_prophets...
This site will give you a good long answer to your question. The short Answer is that I hear what a person says I than study it out in my mind and then ask God if it is correct. This proses includes looking at is this a THUS SAITH THE LORD kind of thing or a THIS IS MY OPPINION kind of thing. Also is it a this will happen in this way at this time or is it left open.
~~~ I don't know what you think your "batting average" might be or if you have kept track (of the number of things you get wrong using this method), but if it's good, the LDS general authorities could use you; if they're not interested in you, the stock market forecasters or prophets could probably use you. However there's a scripture in Deuteronomy chapter 13 that describes what false prophets are, and what should be done with them.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/13.html

“I Believe in Christ”

Since: Nov 08

Salt Lake City, UT

#334 Dec 13, 2008
Mohan is gone wrote:
Funny how these Angels and God no longer appear before man. I mean with the technology we have today it could be broadcast worldwide and all would believe.
Crap. All man made crap.
If God wanted all to know without faith, He would allow it. We are here as a test. If we KNEW of 100% surety, nothing lacking, there would be no need to test us.

We are here to gain experience and knowledge. If all things were handed to us, again, there would be no point in us being here if we had all the answers. That is why we need to exercise faith.

You claim that if we had "video proof" then everyone would believe...well, how many people actually believe aliens have been here based on the "video proof" of UFO's? You'll state that "Oh, that could have been a government experiment or a bird, or a balloon, or something like that. There is a 'logical explanation for that'" Well, the same thing would happen with "video proof" of angels and miracles. The fact is, miracles are video taped and witnessed every day. I've seen them, and I'm sure you've seen them. The question is: do you believe it?

Even so-called "video proof" requires faith.
John Coffey

Saint George, UT

#335 Dec 23, 2008
Faith is the great cop out.
John Coffey

Saint George, UT

#336 Dec 31, 2008
I have read this entire thread, and still found no answers to the original question. What would cause darkness for three entire days? Why is this brushed over? Do you know what would happen to the earth if there was darkness for three whole days? Is this another figurative teaching? If it is, what else is figurative in God's holy book of mormon?

“I Believe in Christ”

Since: Nov 08

Salt Lake City, UT

#337 Jan 1, 2009
John Coffey wrote:
I have read this entire thread, and still found no answers to the original question. What would cause darkness for three entire days? Why is this brushed over? Do you know what would happen to the earth if there was darkness for three whole days? Is this another figurative teaching? If it is, what else is figurative in God's holy book of mormon?
They have claimed to have discovered how the plagues of Egypt came to pass. About 30-40 years ago, there was a volcano close to the area mentioned in the Bible where the Moses story took place. Every one of the "plagues", in order, including the "angel of death" took place. The "angel of death" ended up being carbon monoxide being released from a nearby lake. They explained that in the Egyptian culture the first born slept on the floor, putting them at the level of the poisonous gas leaking throughout the land. Thankfully, when the volcano hit recently, people understood what was happening were able to prepare for it. The shift in the faults caused iron to be released into the water, making it appear and taste like blood. They had a whole special on it on the History Channel about a year ago, and it was very interesting. The 3 days of darkness may have been from a smog due to the destruction the world faced at the time. Look at what happened in New York City back in 2001. That whole area after the Towers collapsed was difficult to see through the smoke, dust, and rubble. Now, imagine whole cities, not just 2 or 3 buildings, being destroyed. The dust in NYC didn't settle for many hours, there was confusion everywhere. Maybe it was like what happened in NYC and because of the magnitude of the destruction the dust didn't settle for 3 days.
John Coffey

Saint George, UT

#338 Jan 1, 2009
neutral one wrote:
<quoted text>
They have claimed to have discovered how the plagues of Egypt came to pass. About 30-40 years ago, there was a volcano close to the area mentioned in the Bible where the Moses story took place. Every one of the "plagues", in order, including the "angel of death" took place. The "angel of death" ended up being carbon monoxide being released from a nearby lake. They explained that in the Egyptian culture the first born slept on the floor, putting them at the level of the poisonous gas leaking throughout the land. Thankfully, when the volcano hit recently, people understood what was happening were able to prepare for it. The shift in the faults caused iron to be released into the water, making it appear and taste like blood. They had a whole special on it on the History Channel about a year ago, and it was very interesting. The 3 days of darkness may have been from a smog due to the destruction the world faced at the time. Look at what happened in New York City back in 2001. That whole area after the Towers collapsed was difficult to see through the smoke, dust, and rubble. Now, imagine whole cities, not just 2 or 3 buildings, being destroyed. The dust in NYC didn't settle for many hours, there was confusion everywhere. Maybe it was like what happened in NYC and because of the magnitude of the destruction the dust didn't settle for 3 days.
I watched that on the history channel also. It's view was that red algae went into the water and increased the frog population, and cattle ate the poisoned frogs and both died. Locusts are easily explained.
So those are all things that the egyptians couldnt explain scientifically so they applied God to them it appears to me. Again, the bible is figurative.
So why would smog cause fires to not start, or allow any sort of light in ancient america?

“I Believe in Christ”

Since: Nov 08

Salt Lake City, UT

#339 Jan 1, 2009
John Coffey wrote:
<quoted text>
I watched that on the history channel also. It's view was that red algae went into the water and increased the frog population, and cattle ate the poisoned frogs and both died. Locusts are easily explained.
So those are all things that the egyptians couldnt explain scientifically so they applied God to them it appears to me. Again, the bible is figurative.
So why would smog cause fires to not start, or allow any sort of light in ancient america?
I'm not sure if it specifically states that the fog caused the fires not to start, but maybe the concentration of dust and particles flying around made it difficult to start or see a fire. Also, many of the acts of destruction were accompanied by great storms, meaning that dry wood would have been scarce, at best. There are places in South America in the jungles where it is pitch black during the day due to the fact that the canopy is so dense. The ancient civilizations may have had large cities, but having the jungle be as dense as it is/was and the fact that cities were now rubble and people were wandering around directionless would assist in the appearance of impenetrable darkness. Remember, we've never suffered anything close to the whole world going crazy over the period of 3 days in our lifetime. Storm clouds blocking the sun, add in the dust (picture the shots taken of NYC after the Towers fell and the statements of people who claimed they couldn't see anything past the tip of their nose until the dust settled), dense jungle in the surrounding areas where people most likely fled to, wet fuel, distress and confusion everywhere, and it is very plausible that what the Book of Mormon states came to pass.

I have never denied that God works through science. He warned Moses of the impending plagues that would hit Egypt in order to strike fear into Pharaoh's heart and to show God had the power bring these things to pass. The plagues would have come regardless of Pharaoh's decision, but the fact that Moses could predict them in full and the fact that the Israelites were for the most part untouched by them, especially the last one, showed the difference. Moses didn't give counsel to the Egyptians on how to survive these plagues. God could have easily stopped any of them from harming the Egyptians if the Pharaoh had obeyed. God, through Moses, would have warned the people of how to avoid the tragedies and plagues just as He showed Joseph how to warn Egypt to prepare for the 7 year famine just decades before.
John Coffey

Saint George, UT

#340 Jan 1, 2009
neutral one wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not sure if it specifically states that the fog caused the fires not to start, but maybe the concentration of dust and particles flying around made it difficult to start or see a fire. Also, many of the acts of destruction were accompanied by great storms, meaning that dry wood would have been scarce, at best. There are places in South America in the jungles where it is pitch black during the day due to the fact that the canopy is so dense. The ancient civilizations may have had large cities, but having the jungle be as dense as it is/was and the fact that cities were now rubble and people were wandering around directionless would assist in the appearance of impenetrable darkness. Remember, we've never suffered anything close to the whole world going crazy over the period of 3 days in our lifetime. Storm clouds blocking the sun, add in the dust (picture the shots taken of NYC after the Towers fell and the statements of people who claimed they couldn't see anything past the tip of their nose until the dust settled), dense jungle in the surrounding areas where people most likely fled to, wet fuel, distress and confusion everywhere, and it is very plausible that what the Book of Mormon states came to pass.
I have never denied that God works through science. He warned Moses of the impending plagues that would hit Egypt in order to strike fear into Pharaoh's heart and to show God had the power bring these things to pass. The plagues would have come regardless of Pharaoh's decision, but the fact that Moses could predict them in full and the fact that the Israelites were for the most part untouched by them, especially the last one, showed the difference. Moses didn't give counsel to the Egyptians on how to survive these plagues. God could have easily stopped any of them from harming the Egyptians if the Pharaoh had obeyed. God, through Moses, would have warned the people of how to avoid the tragedies and plagues just as He showed Joseph how to warn Egypt to prepare for the 7 year famine just decades before.
We're talking 3 days of darkness, from people who live in an extremely wet climate and know how to build fires in it. 3 whole days of darkness. If something that massive happened and was caused by dust or debris, there would surely be evidence of that. This can't keep going into the realm of "we haven't found it yet".

We haven't found horses yet.

We haven't found written language yet.

We haven't found reformed egyptian yet.

We haven't found steel weapons or forges yet.

We haven't found their currency yet.

We haven't found wheat and barley yet.

Amazing. Add the huge dust storms or volcanic eruptions/whatever to the list of things that scientists have no interest in using the book of mormon for a historical record yet, because there is absolutely nothing that backs it up.
Rhyno

Canberra, Australia

#341 Jan 3, 2009
neutral one wrote:
<quoted text>
They have claimed to have discovered how the plagues of Egypt came to pass. About 30-40 years ago, there was a volcano close to the area mentioned in the Bible where the Moses story took place. Every one of the "plagues", in order, including the "angel of death" took place. The "angel of death" ended up being carbon monoxide being released from a nearby lake. They explained that in the Egyptian culture the first born slept on the floor, putting them at the level of the poisonous gas leaking throughout the land. Thankfully, when the volcano hit recently, people understood what was happening were able to prepare for it. The shift in the faults caused iron to be released into the water, making it appear and taste like blood. They had a whole special on it on the History Channel about a year ago, and it was very interesting. The 3 days of darkness may have been from a smog due to the destruction the world faced at the time. Look at what happened in New York City back in 2001. That whole area after the Towers collapsed was difficult to see through the smoke, dust, and rubble. Now, imagine whole cities, not just 2 or 3 buildings, being destroyed. The dust in NYC didn't settle for many hours, there was confusion everywhere. Maybe it was like what happened in NYC and because of the magnitude of the destruction the dust didn't settle for 3 days.
Well the naturalistic explaination fails to explain a few aspects of the plagues.
1. The red alge in the water explaination fails to explain how water in ponds, reservoirs, wooden buckets and stone jars became blood as they are not connected to the nile.
2. How the Jews were spared from:
a. the plague of flies
b. the plague on livestock
c. the plague of darkness
d. the death of the first-born. I don't think blood on the door way would stop carbon monoxide gas and i doubt it would stretch all over Egypt.

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