Olympics
Judge it!So are speaking from experience of what they do because you have been there and witnessed it or are you speaking out of gossip that has been passed around? How do you know it is not family-unit imposed restrictions? When interviewed by Larry King some of them stated they didn't have TVs because they choice not because of the harmful influence it had on children but Willie Jessop claimed that he did have a TV and watched it at times. Hummm...that doesn't sound like Prophet imposed, it sounds like free agency to me. But I guess you have visited every home to know the difference. Just like everyone believed that all FLDS practiced polygamy and come to find out about half of them have monogamist marriages.I think Family Home Evening (do they still have that?) was great... but we, my husband and I, like to set the rules regarding materials - written, electronic, whatever - coming into our house, or let our (legitimate) personal beliefs guide us.
But this is different. This are not family-unit imposed restrictions, but censorship of the masses by a pedophilic Prophet and his controlling church appointees.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Mormons to mark 30th anniversary of revelation on blacks
- Posted in the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Forum
Comments (Page 11)
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“LDS Christian”
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
Comments: 3639
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“Don't like it? TOUGH!”
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Comments: 1885
ISP Location:
San Pablo, CA
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for me, it is a personal choice...my point of view..is from the stance of free agency... Christ allows us to make our decisions knowing full well that we may not return to his presence. Satan wanted to FORCE us to make the right decision... If we really took Christ's side, shouldn't we also respect the same capability and allow our children the ability to make their own decisions? Yes, we should guide them along the way when we have the ability, but any time we coerce them to do the right thing and we take away their free agency...it concerns me...it seems that I am doing exactly what Satan would have done... make my kids do the right thing till they're 8/baptized so that I do not burn for leading them astray since I am responsible for them. ACTUALLY, I am responsible to see to it that they are taught the basics and fundamentals of the Church. I am NOT responsible to MAKE THEM do what is right. I can only help them discern good from bad and help them want to make the right decisions...but ultimately, it is their choice. at least, that is how I see it..you are right..to each their own.. |
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“Don't like it? TOUGH!”
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Comments: 1885
ISP Location:
San Pablo, CA
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not only that...when he was telling his kid that he was a fraud...that he was NEVER the prophet...his own son kept saying.. you are still the prophet...this is just a test.. so EVEN when Warren Jeffs DENOUNCES himself as a invalid prophet...the members just do not accept it.. Jeffs, if he dies, will end up being their martyr..you can write that down..because that is how they will see it... THEY will see it in the same light as when Joseph Smith was killed..jeffs will be their Joseph Smith all over again... |
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“LDS Christian”
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
Comments: 3639
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You act as though those who make a choice not to bring smut into their home that they are playing it like Satan. It's obvious you haven't raised teenagers. I may not be able to control what influences my children run into out in the world but I can make my home a standard. Actually the Temple should be the model of how we run our homes. If its not appropriate to to show at Church or the Temple then why have it available in our homes the same goes for other standards such as appropriate dress. Parents set the standard and pray their children live up to it. |
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Joined: Mar 13, 2008
Comments: 342
zebulon north carolina
ISP Location:
Raleigh, NC
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Very well said HR. Actually I can see both yours and james' view on this issue. But you are absolutly right abut setting the standard. I try to teach my children that if you are wearing something or watching something that you would be ashamed of if Jesus were standing here with you then it is the wrong choice. Then I pray that my children make the right choices even when they are not with me. And I must say to my knowledge they do a wonderful job in choosing the right. |
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Joined: Dec 28, 2007
Comments: 1351
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Firstly, you may not talk DOWN to me as you are in no way elevated or above or superior to me, and that you should know. Secondly... I agree name calling is childish. My apologies if I was offensive. Revelation of fact, however, and use of correct epitaph is strongly encouraged in all aspects. Are you devil, liar or fool? Because I know the purveyors and creators of your religion (and all like it) to be liars, hence Sons of the Father of Lies, hence devils. Comprehend? Not quite end of story but I am content to leave the book-mark there for now. I truly mean you no offense, Mr. Winter. Interestingly, there seems to have been an about face made recently concerning people of color, your texts and scriptures. Apparently one has been made concerning the his-story of your founders since the 1930's as well. Shall I inform you of it's existence or do you wish to continue to believe in and uphold your Might and Right in Eldership? The former. I believe you to be misled (however slightly) by religion. Interestingly, it matters not. I sense... other things... in you. No. Fear is a worthless emotion and I present no threat at all to you. Additionally, you cannot teach who will not learn and that only to the accord of the learner. So, as you wish, but know this... What you have gleaned from the works and writings of men compares not one iota with The Splendor of Divine Knowledge. Be Ye not hasty to exalt the former o'er the latter. And if one were to keep themselves within that same vein of logicality, by consensus, McDonald's would for all apparent and practical purposes be a correct choice in dining or nutritional intake? Me thinks not... |
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Joined: Dec 28, 2007
Comments: 1351
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Cont -
Yes. True. More succinctly as a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. Organized religion is not for the individual and God is a personal experience. One day soon, close your Bible and your eyes briefly and experience God for yourself, Mr. Winter. I admire you spirit and resolve Mr. Winter. We part on matters of religion, but So be it. To you be your religion and to me be mine. It is a small thing. Peace be Unto You, Mr. Winter. |
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“Fear-Mongers are Fraidy Cats!”
Joined: Jun 13, 2008
Comments: 244
Fear only Fear Mongers
ISP Location:
Bloomingdale, IL
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1). I am speaking from EXPERIENCE. I spent my teen years living with my uncle and aunt near Ogden. Went to school, went to church... Seminary class, etc. 2). We have relatives in St. George...'nuf said. 3). "When interviewed by Larry King..." what do you think they're going to say...? EXACTLY what they were prepped to say. They couldn't get the kids in Eldorado, TX ID'd to mothers and fathers because the mothers OPENLY LIED about names, ages, sexes, numbers of, etc. of their children - PUBLIC RECORD. What kind of religion promotes and rationalizes THAT? 4). Willie Jessop is one of the church FLDS church elders; he may have had a TV, but I highly doubt the kiddo's watched Saturday morning cartoons... More along the lines of the two-faced, treacherous behavior and practices of Warren Jeffs when he was captured: He had over $10K in CASH, numerous cell phones, disguises, vehicles at his disposal... it sounds like the Prophet "talks the talk, but won't walk the walk. Like Warren Jeffs, church elders ala Jessop, "Are Treated Extra Special." 5). Only the first wife is public record... the rest of the wives are "celestial wives," bound by the heart <gag> to their husband and sister wives... and, once they can get on the welfare rolls, they do - bearing child after child after child - all out-of-wedlock, all eligible FOR WELFARE. P.S.- This I know is a FACT. I have a "Jack" cousin working for Child & Family Services in SLC. |
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“Don't like it? TOUGH!”
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Comments: 1885
ISP Location:
San Pablo, CA
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I said NOTHING regarding smut or pornography or anything like that. You and I were both teenagers as well...we know from our own experiences how THAT works. We also know whether we were sheltered from sex as if it were a bad thing, or whether it was too sacred to talk about, or whether good boys who hold the priesthood don't do this or that or vice versa...I get it. I am not condoning smut now, nor would I ever. Again, I didn't even have THAT as part of my direction. Whether I raised a teenager or not, my feelings on that subject will never change. I will do what I can to help my kids make the best decisions that they can. I am NOT insinuating that anyone BUT MYSELF is acting the part of Satan by forcing my kids to do what is right...and why that has anything to do with smut is beyond me, there are so many other areas that are equally destructive. What I want to create for my kids is the environment that they KNOW that garbage (regardless of what kind) is out there, but they have no need for it, it doesn't entice or appease them. Neither you or I can control what happens at that high school or college...and YES our homes are the standard so that they can feel peace and love and respect within the walls of their own home, family and surroundings...but my wife grew up completely disinterested by sex or anything like that. She was raised in another country that is FAR more liberal than ours and yet, she did NOT see smut or anything of the like and her family was not even Mormon. It was a subject that NEVER came up. There were definitely some shortcomings that resulted from that. A lot of misinformation was the result of NO education in that regard, but a lot of that has been fixed. My hope is that my kids are taught appropriately and correctly and in the right time and in the right way. I do not want to overwhelm that cup of knowledge at any time nor do I want to keep from filling it. There is a correct amt of knowledge they need to have and there is a right way to do it. Thankfully, I have at least 5 years to figure that out. I am not here to judge you Hannah, either way you will raise your family as you see fit for YOU and yours. I will do the same. My saying so will change very little as every parent has their idea as far as what is right or wrong. So that you get an idea, not that it matters, but I will have big brother watching my kids as they are on the computer. I will simply see what they are doing...what I decide to question is between my wife and I as far as if it is valid. I do not see that as controlling them, i am simply acting as a moderator and questioning them whether they want to continue on that road...ok..so you want to talk to this guy/girl about that...here are the pros and cons...here are the consequences of your future actions..decide if it is worth it to you to continue on your path...if they know the consequences of their actions prior to committing to that decision, it may avert them from following through with it. |
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“Don't like it? TOUGH!”
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Comments: 1885
ISP Location:
San Pablo, CA
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contd As far as the tv...we do not have movie channels at all and several channels are blocked. That said, they have to be able to discern whether they would feel comfortable watching that with 1) their mother in the room 2) both parents in the room and 3) that picture of Christ in the room.. if they can feel comfortable with all 3...they will use their free agency accordingly..but if my wife and I are offended, we'll leave the room and hope they get the drift that we refuse to be involved in that program. and as always my wife will drop the bomb..."I am disappointed in your decision to watch this...i hope that you learn to reconsider your decision." |
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“Don't like it? TOUGH!”
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Comments: 1885
ISP Location:
San Pablo, CA
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"The former. I believe you to be misled (however slightly) by religion. Interestingly, it matters not. I sense... other things... in you...."
what other things do you sense... look...to be quite honest...I am much more open than most people in the LDS faith...I may seem close minded...but you would be surprised with what I am willing to entertain..even if I do not accept it fully...I can at least listen to some extent... example...this I got from someone and I will nto reveal the source, but found it intriguing...enough to leave the church? No...but interesting none the less.. I left the church because my real feelings and beliefs differed significantly from church teachings. There were several issues involved - including discrimination against blacks, and misinformation about polygamy - that compelled me to choose a different direction. It started when I was a Bishop, and the High Priest Group leader's wife came to me with concerns about a book she was reading. The book was about the Pearl of Great Price, and seemed to show that Joseph Smith's translation of the papyrus had nothing to do with the Egyptian glyphs on the mummy he purchased. I was sure that we could research it and come up with an answer that would restore this woman's faith. I was wrong. The more I looked into it, the more convinced I was that Joseph could not translate Egyptian. Even church leaders, and Hugh Nibley, were quietly agreeing that the Pearl of Great Price was not an accurate translation of the Joseph Smith papyrus, but claimed that it was still modern scripture. So if Joseph couldn't translate the Egyptian papyrus, how could he translate the "reformed Egyptian" golden plates? About that same time my Executive Secretary came to me with questions about changes to the temple ceremony. In about 1992-1993 the temple ceremony was changed. The part where the woman agrees to "obey" her husband changed to say that she would "hearken unto" her husband. It seemed to be a concession to the prevailing feminist sentiments prevailing at the time. There were several other changes as well regarding penalties that you probably already know about. Anyway, I called the temple President to ask for some help in explaining how something too sacred to talk about outside the temple on one day, can be changed or completely discarded the next. He said I was asking improper questions, and said that I did not properly understand the idea of modern revelation. He said modern revelation can change black to white, yes to no, and good to bad. God can and does change his mind, and reveals those changes to his modern prophets. That puzzled me. During that time I started reading books written by historians and other academics about the church. I was genuinely surprised by some of the information I read. For example: Joseph Smith did not write any contemporary account of the first vision, nor did anyone else. The first written account of the first vision, including the one by his mother, were written many years after it was supposed to have happened, and the various accounts contradict each other in important ways. It started to look to me like it was made up after the fact. Joseph Smith lied to his wife and others about practicing polygamy. He had several spiritual wives, including many of Emma's friends, but publicly and privately denied it. It looked to me like he was abusing his charisma and church leadership position for his own gratification. I was surprised to see how much magic and the occult played into the discovery of the golden plates. |
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“Don't like it? TOUGH!”
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Comments: 1885
ISP Location:
San Pablo, CA
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contd from above There are many other issues, but perhaps the biggest was that I became convinced that the Book of Mormon was not an actual history of events, but a work of fiction and religious doctrine. I have studied this extensively, and won't go into detail here. Just know, that I am telling you that the Book of Mormon is not what it claims to be. There are many evidences of this. A recent one is that in late 2007 the introduction to the BOM was changed to say that the Lamanites are "...AMONG the ancestors of the American Indians..." rather than "...THE PRINCIPAL ancestors of the American Indians...". The change appears to have been made in acknowledgment that recent DNA tests prove that the American Indians descended primarily from Asians, not a tribe of Israel. Joseph Smith and many other prophets and apostles taught that all American Indians are Lamanites. They told brown people all over South America, Polynesia, Micronesia, Mexico and North America that they are descendants of the Lamanites. Now it looks like the church is saying that only some, perhaps only a few, of those people descended from Lamanites. The church has to make this change because modern science proves it to be the case. I can only image what some LDS Hawaiian, Navajo, Mexican or Brazilian - who all their lives were thought that they were descendents of Lamanites - must be thinking about this change. So changing the word of God caused me to doubt. There were many other issues arising from the prophet or apostles first saying one thing as if it were the word of God, and then saying the opposite as if it were the word of God. It seemed to me that rather than receiving revelation and sticking with it, the church would change revelation to accommodate current circumstances. Some of those include: Blacks cannot receive the priesthood (racial discrimination normal in America)- Blacks can receive the priesthood (racial discrimination illegal in America) Plural marriage is essential for exaltation (polygamy legal and secret) - Plural marriage is sinful (polygamy illegal and public) Using artificial birth control is a sin - Using artificial birth control is a legitimate choice There are many more examples of this, but I'm sure you get the picture. So I found myself doubting some fundamental church teachings, and had to consider - just as you are now considering - what to teach my children. I had essentially two options. I could stay in the church, hold my doubts private, and give my children the benefits the church provides - structure, support, clear moral guidance, positive role models, social activities etc. and avoid the difficulties of leaving. Many people, including some of my siblings, are doing this now. They believe that the benefits and relative ease of staying in the church, despite their doubts, outweighs the risks and difficulty of leaving. On the other hand, I could leave the church and take the risk that my kids would be damaged by a drugs, violence, sexual mistakes, or a general lack of purpose in life. It was very difficult, but wife and I decided that we had to be true to ourselves, and our kids, so we left. Of course leaving was very difficult for us, and our family and friends were shocked and disappointed. Fortunately, after a few years it became clear that that our family was doing fine, and that morality, good judgment and general happiness do not depend on the church you choose to attend. We and our kids are happy and are finding our way though life with optimism and fun. We will never go back to the church. Our lives are much better now. |
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“Fear-Mongers are Fraidy Cats!”
Joined: Jun 13, 2008
Comments: 244
Fear only Fear Mongers
ISP Location:
Bloomingdale, IL
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So, remind me WHY we were squabbling on this Topic? |
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“Don't like it? TOUGH!”
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Comments: 1885
ISP Location:
San Pablo, CA
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Yeah I am sorry...totally forgot...but this was in reply to little richard... |
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“LDS Christian”
Joined: Nov 23, 2007
Comments: 3639
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James Winter,
You really do sound like the typical Ex-Mormon, it's now starting to all make sense. Did all of you guys get together and compare notes because you all sound alike? You forgot the part where Joseph Smith put his head in a hat with the peep stones...wasn't that one from a cartoon? It's amazing those of little faith. There are logical and provable explanation for most every thing you listed. With the way history in general is written and all the things that get messed up don't you think you can give the Church some room to have very human people in it who are not perfect? Geeze, Peter denied the Lord three times. And Joseph Smith and his wives there are some experts who believe that some of the diaries are forged or have interpolation. Emma did know of many of the wives and put their hands in his at the sealing. And on the ones that seem that she didn't maybe she really did or they had an agreement that she couldn't handle it so don't tell me. We don't know even if they were sexual relations as the ones who claim from diaries there are some belief about them being forgeries. Or were they dynastic marriages? The DNA evidence is still out and there have been Jewish Cohen genes found in South America and other parts of North America. The word that was changed was not in the Book of Mormon or the Title page but an introduction written by McConkie in the 70's. As far as the Pearl of Great Price there are two schools of thought on that, the one you mentioned and the other was that not all of the papyri were given back as there are descriptions with markings on the one Joseph used recorded in journals that are not consistent with the ones give back to the Church. So it could be that the one in question did burn in the fire as originally believed. And if you did leave the Church what are you doing in an LDS forum sowing your discontent? So basically you really haven't left...or just playing your part of Alma the Younger I guess. I hope you get your act together in the end like he did. If not best of luck to you anyway. But please have the dignity to leave and not bad mouth the gospel anymore that others hold sacred. I am sorry you had such bad experiences that made you leave the Church or your wife did. We don't all see things as you do and that's not a bad thing it just means that we are different and different is not wrong. And as far as things changing I believe there is an Article of Faith that addresses that one. I guess the next time there are changes there will be some more sifting of the wheat and the chaff and others will find something to hang their hat on. I have found that most LDS who leave do so because of personal iniquity and so they have to have something to blame things on...they are the ones who still like to hang around. I hope that wasn't the case with you. Oh, and by the way I have raised my six children, well...the last will be a junior in H.S. this year. So I've lived through enough and seen enough to try and test my faith so don't give me the spill that I don't know what I'm talking about that I'm just blindly following. I've read enough Anti-Mormon books and seen their movies that they still haven't convinced me that the Gospel isn't true. So like I said, good luck in your life. Brigham Young said, "A good man, is a good man, whether in this church, or out of it." |
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Blah blah blah
Has anyone ever politely suggested that you STFU? |
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“Don't like it? TOUGH!”
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Comments: 1885
ISP Location:
San Pablo, CA
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that was a letter that I got from a friend of mine...I have a calling and have NEVER left the church...so please do not assume too much. We live a block away and my wife JUST went to Enrichment night this evening... I can see where you could have gotten the idea that the letter was about my wife and I...but it wasn't... I mean I JUST bore my testimony THIS month....I have NEVER HARBORED the same feelings that drove my friend away from the Church...I feel bad for him, but he lives in the southeast portion of the US and I am here in the Bay area...so..I didn't share that to bad mouth the church but to show that people within the church do have their own questions and not all members accept everything as the status quo and just ride the waves... I think it is SOMEWHAT important to REALLY have a testimony of what is true...I am not saying question every little thing in the Church, because faith and prayer are critical...and that is what my friend could not get. I have my fair share of issues as does every member...whether they share those or not...but..don't misunderstand this..I have been active ever since my mission 13 years ago and STILL have an active temple recommend and frequent both church and temple regularly....I just don't accept everything like others do. So, while I question, I still pray and accept. |
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“Don't like it? TOUGH!”
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Comments: 1885
ISP Location:
San Pablo, CA
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and who are YOU to do so? unsolicited advice in a conversation that is NOT your own is unbecoming of a person. |
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“Don't like it? TOUGH!”
Joined: Mar 3, 2008
Comments: 1885
ISP Location:
San Pablo, CA
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I meant that it is somewhat important to question the Church ..NOT to discount it or its people...I strongly believe in D&C 1:30...as the Lord is over all pleased with the church collectively rather than individually... but when it is the Prophets and Apostles...it makes it tougher..because we feel that they are apostles seers and revelators...they are still people and are quite human...but you can imagine how you might feel if you were in an interracial marriage how it would feel to read McConkie's words on the subject or Brigham Young's or George Q. Cannon... have I left because of what they said? no. is it still difficult to deal with...for me it is ..because it seems coincidentally well timed. or the idea that a declaration overturns or amends D&C 132:61 regarding polygamy based on timing what about birth control being against the rules...and now...it is ok? these are simply questions that I will not have answers so soon. |
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Joined: Dec 28, 2007
Comments: 1351
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Judged: 
1 That you search for your Lord in Earnest... and not religion... and that you are truly on the cusp of finding that which you seek. Excelsior, Mr. Winter. I wish to restate my plea... One day soon, close your Bible and your eyes briefly and experience God for yourself, Mr. Winter. |
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